AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Sception]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:03 AM, Btimmy said:

Not sure what you mean by the extra range, both have wholly w/in 12. Unless you just mean having another use case of it. Also even in 2k you are hard pressed to use more than 5 RDP a round, and having extra is just a waste. The harvester was suggested as it is exactly the 200 points that the liege kav fills, and provided some variety. The better choice would probably just be another crawler, but some people probably wouldn't find that as interesting.  Alternatively, a chicken legs would also simply be better to be at 6 RDP and provide double casting/dispelling and buffs. 

Yes, I mean having another bubble, thus covering a wider range on the table, particularly when you consider the liege's better movement speed.

and regularly use more than 5 rdp a round in 2k points.  even with just 2 mortek blocks, one crawler, one liege, & katakros, you can easily end up burnung through more RPD than you have in a single battle round, between boosting the speed of your slow units, shield wall in both mortek blocks in both player's combat phases, and bonus attack CAs whenever relevant.  RDP isn't quite as tight as it was in the petrifex days, since the MP command ability, while not useless, is nowhere near as spammable as bludgeon, but even so.

[Btimmy]

53 minutes ago, Sception said:

More melee units would be redundant, likely resulting in obviously better & worse versions of the same units, a problem that plagues Nighthaunts, for instance.  A shooting unit would be something new, something that might allow for more meaningful play variety.

At least part of OBR's concept is that they're re-imagined Tomb Kings.  TK had a catapult and ranged units, and while TK ranged builds were at times viable, they didn't dominate the game overall, even at times when shooting in general was overpowered.  Nor did they obsolete or crowd out melee TK builds.

So yeah, I welcome OBR archers, if that is indeed what we're seeing.  And while we're updating more classic TK concepts, maybe bring back war sphinxes & chariots, with options to make them battle line?

I like OBR as a first pass at the faction.  Better imo than many new AoS dactions' initial outings.  But they're definitely lacking in build and play variety, and some more distinct battle line options, including archers, would help a ton in that regard,

A skele-ton, even.

I strongly disagree with the assertion that OBR's basic infantry, cav, and stalkers/guard cover all of the possible melee roles such that the only design space left is more shooting in an army that already has to bring 1 or 2 crawlers to even be competitive. I'm not terribly interested in whether or not thematically it makes sense for some skeletons to pick up bows. I am/would be disappointed that the path GW would take is, in my opinion, the least effort and most boring one. Its already annoying that the heavy infantry elite army requires a commitment of at least one maybe two crawlers to function because the army lacks any other tricks or threats apart from march up the field and fight. 

[warhammernerd]

AGREED.

more infantry units are not needed for this army.

What is needed:

Giant combat bone constructs

Flying mount

Monstrous infantry sized hero

[Hungey26]

 

7 hours ago, Btimmy said:

I strongly disagree with the assertion that OBR's basic infantry, cav, and stalkers/guard cover all of the possible melee roles such that the only design space left is more shooting in an army that already has to bring 1 or 2 crawlers to even be competitive. I'm not terribly interested in whether or not thematically it makes sense for some skeletons to pick up bows. I am/would be disappointed that the path GW would take is, in my opinion, the least effort and most boring one. Its already annoying that the heavy infantry elite army requires a commitment of at least one maybe two crawlers to function because the army lacks any other tricks or threats apart from march up the field and fight. 

Honestly I get where you are coming from but have you considered that we have to take crawlers because everyone else's shooting is also much too strong. AOS could have gone two routes, limit shooting on ALL armies and make it strong (but boring) or actually properly address shooting. Us getting a new archer unit doesnt fix all the super strong ranged spam armies. Having shooting units makes sense but as other have stated there shouldn't be builds removing all your characters and/or a chunk of your army just from shooting T1. Being able to do build like that AND them being the most efficient in the first place is the problem. Also we have other melee units then morteks like stalkers immortis morghasts yet these medium and big constructs don't get played as they are so outshone by the basic mortek spam. The book already has a hard time balancing our melee units internally let alone with more. Don't get me wrong I actually want a whole unit of the other warband guy revealed too, just big 2 handed axe squad sounds awesome but it certainly doesn't give as much variety as a ranged option. I will say I am also a big fan of setting limits on # of units being taken in an army but that's a whole another topic.

[warhammernerd]

If your argument is, it’s 2 or bust.... I’d question what your endgame is.

But yes, they are undeniably strong and bring something to the table that the army needs and which shifts the surrounding landscape to play our game. 
 

As would archers, crossbowmen or  whatever else you want them to imagine. It would add a new level of dynamism to the army and open up different ways to play.

My argument btw isn’t based on some salty opinions about fantasy and bringing it back. Say what you like. But this game is based on the same concept tho. Armies closing each other down over distance before fighting one another in melee. 
 

Anywhoo. 

[Clan's Cynic]

14 hours ago, Btimmy said:

I don't. Another army gaining access to unnecessary shooting is not the direction that I want AoS or OBR to be going. We already have mandatory crawlers. 

I think Ossiarchs are meant to be one of the premier 'military' factions, they're very much themed about being a professional, disciplined, aesthetically organised army and a big part of that would inevitably be their ranged support. Ossiarchs lacking archers feels stranger to me than them not and that's just from a lore/design perspective, nor do I think one (well, two now) ranged units will suddenly change their identity overnight unless said archer unit is hilariously OP for a few months.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Sception]

8 hours ago, warhammernerd said:

AGREED.

more infantry units are not needed for this army.

What is needed:

Giant combat bone constructs

Flying mount

Monstrous infantry sized hero

this army has all of one single normal sized infantry unit.  I think another would be good for build variety.  You need something with the bodies to claim an objective.  As is, the requirement to field a bunch of morteks is way more limiting than than crawlers.  I've seen obr lists that work without crawlers, but not ones that work without so many morteks in battleline that it becomes difficult to justify taking non-battleline melee units like stalkers..

But what would alternative infantry even look like?  The army by fundamental character is slow, tanky, & elite, so fast skirmishers, cheap chaff, and glass cannons don't feel right.  There's not a lot you can do with melee infantry that maintains the character of the faction but wouldn't be redundant with morteks, resulting in one or the other unit being obsolete.  Look at the various melee infantry stormcast units for examples of how wrong this can go.

a ranged unit, on the other hand, could work easily.  and sometimes the easy solution is easy because it's the best option.

 

As for other suggested ways to expand the army...

More giant bone constructs:  YES.  As I said, something like a warsphinx - ie big and tough but slow and non-flying, with an option for a howda & troops (maybe battleline) or to be ridden by a liege, would be fantastic & absolutely in character for the army.

As would some sort of bone giant designed to batter down walls & gates, or a sort of 'walking arcane nexus' to buff our wizards & enable some more casting heavy builds, esoecially if it also could generate some sort of protective barrier to help protect the heroes it buffs.

flying mount:  I'd honestly prefer this faction didn't get a fast flying dragon equivalent.  Too far outside of the slow tanky character of the faction.  I would like to see a monstrous hero mount, but as mentioned more of a ponderous warsphinx style.

Monstrous Infantry Hero:  very yes.  In particular a stalker hero to make stalkers battleline, or a morghast hero that doesn't make them battleline (again, I'm not keen to see fast flying OBR armies), but does buff them in a way that makes them more threatening.

again, I'd also like to see chariots.  Chariots are cool, and feature prominently in katakros's history.  Maybe a bone construct take on the chariot, with the steeds, cart, and maybe drivers all built together into a single hideous form.

an infantry liege would also be cool (the hypothetical shinx kit could come with an extra base to put the liege on foot if you build it with troops instead, like tge ild warsphinx model).  As would fortification walls & gate like the studio made to promote the faction.

 

I'd also like to see some changes to existing units - deathriders counting wounds instead if models to claim objectives making cavalry builds more functional, particularly when combined with the hypothetical chariots to add.  Stalkers able to run as battleline.  Soulreaper & Vokmortian actually good.  Morghast rules reworked entirely, etc.

There's a long list of great ways to expand and improve the faction and diversify its builds.  Archers are definitely on that list, though.  Not liking the way ranged units rules work in AoS isn't a good reason to deny them to an army that really should have them.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Sception

[Btimmy]

5 hours ago, Hungey26 said:

 

Honestly I get where you are coming from but have you considered that we have to take crawlers because everyone else's shooting is also much too strong. AOS could have gone two routes, limit shooting on ALL armies and make it strong (but boring) or actually properly address shooting. Us getting a new archer unit doesnt fix all the super strong ranged spam armies. Having shooting units makes sense but as other have stated there shouldn't be builds removing all your characters and/or a chunk of your army just from shooting T1. Being able to do build like that AND them being the most efficient in the first place is the problem. Also we have other melee units then morteks like stalkers immortis morghasts yet these medium and big constructs don't get played as they are so outshone by the basic mortek spam. The book already has a hard time balancing our melee units internally let alone with more. Don't get me wrong I actually want a whole unit of the other warband guy revealed too, just big 2 handed axe squad sounds awesome but it certainly doesn't give as much variety as a ranged option. I will say I am also a big fan of setting limits on # of units being taken in an army but that's a whole another topic.

I think this slightly misses the mark when it comes to crawlers. We don't have to take them to mitigate shooting, because they functionally do not perform that role. We take them to force the opponent to engage with our army because we have NO tricks, low mobility, and pitiful ranged/melee mortal wound output. For the army to function, we need that huge long range threat to force the opponent into melee with our units. OBR's playstyle is painfully linear simply due to absolute lack of complexity insofar as actual access to teleports, or viable threat alternatives to crawlers and mortek guard. Unless the new archers are sentinel levels of unfun and power, they aren't going to fill the role the crawler has in the army. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Btimmy

[jhamslam]

On 3/14/2021 at 11:00 AM, Btimmy said:

I think this slightly misses the mark when it comes to crawlers. We don't have to take them to mitigate shooting, because they functionally do not perform that role. We take them to force the opponent to engage with our army because we have NO tricks, low mobility, and pitiful ranged/melee mortal wound output. For the army to function, we need that huge long range threat to force the opponent into melee with our units. OBR's playstyle is painfully linear simply due to absolute lack of complexity insofar as actual access to teleports, or viable threat alternatives to crawlers and mortek guard. Unless the new archers are sentinel levels of unfun and power, they aren't going to fill the role the crawler has in the army. 

This isnt so much a problem if some of the costs on our things come down. For being straightforward units, Kavalos, Stalkers, Harbiners, Arkhan, Vokmortian, Soulreaper, Boneshaper, could all come down 10-20 points. It would actually open up a lot of space in our lists for utility.

[jhamslam]

Battle Report time! Local tournament, 16 players

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Mortis Praetorians
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Arch-Kavalos Zandtos (220)
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Katakros' Chosen
- Artefact: Gothizzar Cartouche
- Lore of Mortisans: Drain Vitality
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- Artefact: Artificer's Blade
- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command

Battleline
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2x Soulcleaver Greatblades
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2x Soulcleaver Greatblades
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2x Soulcleaver Greatblades

Behemoths
Gothizzar Harvester (200)

Artillery
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)

Battalions
Mortek Shield-corps (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
 

 

Game 1: vs DOK , Missions - Blades Edge

Opponents List: Morathi, 20 Sisters of Slaughter, 10 SoS, 20 Blood Stalkers, Hag Queen on Cauldron, Bloodwrack Medusa. Subfaction: Khelt Nar

I took turn 1. 

I deploy 20 Mortek Center Left and right flanks. Crawlers, Zandtos in the center, Soulmason center, Boneshaper right flank. Gothizzar Harvester behind the center mortek.

Decimated 10 Blood Stalkers with my catapults. Soul Guide and Zandtos with the re roll 1s to wound is ace on the Crawlers. He lost 4 more due to bravery and a huge piece of his combo his gone. He moved Morathi and sisters up, tries to shooty my Zandtos but he lives on 3 wounds. No combat.

I get the double turn, he removes the center objective i was holding. he misread the sisters of slaughter rule where their bucklers only give them a +1 save in melee. So i only killed 10 sisters of slaughter where i shouldve wiped them, but hey my mistake i didnt check. I then charged my mortek with Relentless advance into his blood stalkers and sisters, killed like 4 sisters of slaughter, and damaged little morathi. I forgot he was khelt nar so i charged big Morathi to tie her down, but he can just retreat and charge, so i was stupid there. My mortek die killing his SoS and Stalkers, but i take the objective on his end for a turn. Score 6 - 7

He gets the next double turn, and i remove his left flank objective. He charges my Gothizzar and catapults with Morathi, takes the Harvester and one catapult down. He brings down 5 Khinerai for free in my back right flank. He tries to kill my Boneshaper but it lives on 1 wound thanks to some good deathless saves. I bring Morathi down 3 wounds and my mortek hold his Stalkers and Cauldrons attention for a turn. Left flank i charge his 10 sisters of slaughter and kill them. 

I get the next double turn. he Removes my right flank objective .Kill Morathi with my catapult. Its in combat but he just tagged it and i didnt pile in so im able to shoot big morathi, my center mortek guard bring his cauldron to 1 wound and thanks to a failed prayer, he takes a mortal wound in his turn.  I charge the soulmason into the Khinerai and kill 3. Zandtos uses Relentless Advance and charges into his remaining Stalkers, and SoS. With Dark Lance i do a ton of damage and null them. Now he only has some khinerai and a medusa left. 

He gets the next double turn and i remove all objectives except for the right two, which i am holding with my soulmason , catapult and mortek guard on the top. At this point i win a minor victory.  17 - 12

Lesson: Dont charge morathi in khelt nar. Be more aggressive on the flanks with mortek guard and zandtos is great. Read rules on your opponents army carefully.

 

 

Game 2: Vs Sons of Behemat, Mission - The Better Part of Valor

Opponents List - 2 Gatebreaker Gargants, 1 Kraken Eater, 1 Unit of 3 Mancrusher Gargants

THIS is a tough matchup. 6 objectives? So i leave the left flank exposed and deploy two mortek guard center ,catapults center and one mortek guard right flank. Zandtos and heroes in the center. He gets the first turn so moves his 3 MG up, keeps his megas holding the objective. I use my catapults to do 15 wounds to a mega on the right flank then charge my mortek guard and using Still Their Breath! and Endless Duty from Zandtos, im able to kill all 3 of them no sweat.

He gets the Roll off for turn .He then charges my mortek with his Kraken Eater. but thanks to some Harvester support i only lose 5 of them. He cant afford to move his gargants off the objective yet so they stay there.  My right flank forms a screen around the right objective.  He kills 6 more Mortek guard and brings the catapult to 4 wounds with shooting from his Gatebreakers. Im able to bring his Kraken eater to 10 wounds remaining. He burns all three objectives for 6 points end of turn and i still hold two.  In my turn i do 10 wounds to the wounded Gatebreaker, bringing him to 15 and bring the kraken eater to  5 wounds since i whiff hard. 

He wins roll off again, he charges my right flank but thanks to Shield Wall and some good saves coupled with Drain Vitality im able to hold the right objective. Thanks to Drain vitality from the Soulmason, he loses 9 wounds and his down to 6  wound left. His kraken eater goes thru my center mortek guard for my Bait Secondary and his other Gatebreaker kills my Harvester with shooting. I charge Zandtos in my turn into the right flank with Relentless Advance and The Dark Lance with Endless Duty finishes the last gargant off.  My catapults finish off the wounded Kraken Eater in the center. 

At this point he can only rush to the undefended left flank  with his full health Gatebreaker and try to score 8 points which he does, and i score 16. Minor Victory 16 - 14. 

Lesson: Honestly maybe i couldve just burned that objective and rushed my mortek back to the center. I was afraid to do so because i was afraid his mega garg would flank me. Still their Breath and Cartouche making Mortek wound on 3s re rolling 1s is great.

 

Game 3: Vs Maggotkin of Nurgle. - Mission: Shifting Objectives

Opponents List: 2 GUO, Chaos Sorceror Lord, Blightlord, Blightkings and A deepstriking Nurgle Lord with 5 Blightkings

Not much to this one. He deployed his two GuOs on the left. I avoided this and deployed everything in the right and center. The primary objective was always on my sides or the center. Catapults and mortek chew through the BlightKings. He uses some spell or ability to damage my catapults at which point i cursed stele his 6 wound heroes to instantly kill them. He deepstrikes to threaten my catapults but Zandtos aint playing and counter attacks re rolling 1s with the soulmason and re rolling wounds for being zandtos.

Major Victory 20-9

Thoughts - This list has teeth, although i missed the Katakros debuffs and CP steals and armor save and Pluses to hit (jeez he does so much). It also lacks movement tricks and moblity and basically is a grindy list which makes the opponent come to you. I do wish some of the stuff we have was cheaper.  Boneshaper and Soulmason and Zandtos going down by 10 points would be great

 

Thanks for reading!

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by jhamslam

[Sception]

Boss of the underworlds warband is up:

They're a 'Mortisan Executioner', not just an alternate sculpt for a Soulreaper.  Although honestly it sounds pretty redundant with Soulreapers, at least conceptually.  Hopefully its aos rules will be more impressive than the reaper's, but we'll see.

The rest of the warband confirmed for this weekend's preview.

I'm hoping we eventually get a 'how to paint' video for that style of dark bone, as it's something I've been trying and failing to emulate for ages.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Sception

[Cargo Cult]

Big fan of that model. Very Necron.

12 hours ago, Sception said:

Boss of the underworlds warband is up:

They're a 'Mortisan Executioner', not just an alternate sculpt for a Soulreaper.  Although honestly it sounds pretty redundant with Soulreapers, at least conceptually.  Hopefully its aos rules will be more impressive than the reaper's, but we'll see.

The rest of the warband confirmed for this weekend's preview.

I'm hoping we eventually get a 'how to paint' video for that style of dark bone, as it's something I've been trying and failing to emulate for ages.

 

[El Syf]

Apart from going overboard on the necklace it's a win for me too. Love that it shares design cues with the Soulreaper who I think is a fantastic model just with somewhat lackluster rules. Hopefully this one is better in that department.

[KK9T]

On 3/16/2021 at 2:11 PM, Sception said:

 

I'm hoping we eventually get a 'how to paint' video for that style of dark bone, as it's something I've been trying and failing to emulate for ages.

I’ve had good results using nuln oil over Celestra Grey then dry brushed with celestra grey once again. 

[Evil Bob]

12 hours ago, El Syf said:

Apart from going overboard on the necklace it's a win for me too.

Maybe they’re bone grenades?  Wouldn’t that be lovely?

[KK9T]

I love the sound of that... bone grenades.

[herohammer]

Bone bombs perhaps?

Edited March 19, 2021 by herohammer

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

23 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Maybe they’re bone grenades?  Wouldn’t that be lovely?

I'm pretty sure that necklace is made out of those soul cartouches the Soulreapers carry:

Edited March 19, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Sception]

15 hours ago, KK9T said:

I’ve had good results using nuln oil over Celestra Grey then dry brushed with celestra grey once again. 

except there are brown tones in it that you just don't get from a pure grey/black scheme.

[KK9T]

5 hours ago, Sception said:

except there are brown tones in it that you just don't get from a pure grey/black scheme.

Ohhh, for some reason I thought you meant the bone around the armour. The main bone colour of that executioner looks to me like many coats of agrax earth and nuln oil glaze over a light grey base. 

[Evil Bob]

11 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm pretty sure that necklace is made out of those soul carouches the Soulreapers carry:

Aaaand I just learned a new word today.  Thank you Neil.

So basically soul-thumbdrives or pokeballs.  So why didn’t they get some cool special abilities?  In the SCE the wizard chamber gets exploding crystals. XD

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Aaaand I just learned a new word today.  Thank you Neil.

So basically soul-thumbdrives or pokeballs.  So why didn’t they get some cool special abilities?  In the SCE the wizard chamber gets exploding crystals. XD

I should have taken care to actually spell it correctly. For the record, it's "cartouche". Unless you mean "soul" 😉

Edited March 19, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Sception]

Yeah, giving actual rules to their little soul trinkets would have been great.  It also would have been a good way to better differentiate the wizards, with different ways of interacting with the soul crystals.  Off the top of my head:
 

Spoiler

 

Soul Tokens: each mortisan in your army begins the game with d3 soul tokens.  When a Mortisan wizard attempts to cast or unbind a spell, you may spend one of their soul tokens.  If you do, then treat the result of the casting or unbinding roll as an unmodified 9.   You may use only a single soul token this way on a given roll, and you must choose whether or not to use a soul token before making the roll.  9 is a special number for nagash, and this effectively works as the casting/unbinding bonus the army needs to be an arcane force to be reckoned with while also fitting into the themes of reliability and inevitability by replacing a random roll with a set number. 

Then each mortisan could have additional individual rules:

Soulmason: Whenever this model uses a soul token to change a casting or unbinding roll, roll a d6.  On a 5+, the soul token is not expended.

Boneshaper: when you use this model's boneshaper ability, you can spend one of its soul tokens to target 2 ossiarch bonereapers units instead of 1.  maybe a bit boring, but useful.

Soulreaper: at the end of any combat round in which this model if this model slew any enemy models with its melee attacks, you may choose one friendly Mortisan unit within 12" of this model.  That unit gains an additional Soul Token.  Allowing the soulreaper to generate soul tokens from kills fits their lore and  gives you a legit reason to field the oddball melee mage to begin with, and letting him transfer tokens to other mortisans if they're close enough might make trident builds more viable.

Vokmortian: just give him the mortisan keyword already.  Additionally, give him a 4+ ward from his big stone coffin.  Next, like Arkhan and Nagash, Vokmortian know all the spells from the Ossiarch Bonereapers spell lore.  Finally, let him spend a Soul Token to re-roll the 'contract with nagash' ability.  Makes him a fair bit harder to kill, which in turn gives him a better chance to live long enough to threaten an enemy with Mortal touch, which he can also spend a token on to auto-cast on a 9 instead of trying for a hard casting roll.  while he's not up close, knowing all the spells (he is a channel for nagash after all) lets him make much better use of his double casting, while his de-buff to enemy unbinding attempts against spells he casts works perfectly with default soul token ability..

You might also change the couple obr magic items that do grant casting or unbinding bonuses to instead interact with soul tokens.  Like maybe the one soulreaper scythe could generate 2 soul tokens instead of 1 on a d6 roll of 4+, while the cartouche might let the soulmason re-roll the die roll to retain soul tokens, but if the second roll fails it breaks.

 

Or I don't know, something like that.  Even if it was a simple implementation like skaven warpstone instead of something with different rules for each wizard, it would still be neat to see ~some~ sort of mechanical implementation.

[ian0delond]

14 hours ago, Sception said:

except there are brown tones in it that you just don't get from a pure grey/black scheme.

That can just be their recipe of black undercoat -> rhinox hide in shade consistency in the recess -> highlights with Eshin Grey then Dawnstone. Maybe even higher highlights with administratum or adding white to the dawnstone?

[Nagash42]

maybe the leader is a Soulreaper that got beat up and being far away from the frontlines his buddies pieced him  back together with stalker parts.