The Rumour Thread

[Grungnisson]

24 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

I dunno, the number of times I've seen NH players spike a bunch of 4+ saves to completely blunt an assault, I'd be very wary of bumping anything ethereal to a base 3+ save (See also, Neferata, Zombie Dragon, etc.)

I am an NH player. This has not been my personal experience.

But, we'll see. We're still very far from seeing the whole picture.

[Acrozatarim]

4 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

100%

Dawnbringer Chronicles XXIX – An Oath Sworn Unto Vermin - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com

The rat-tail-fingered, earth-blackening skaven here reads a lot like some sort of lesser GHR daemon or herald.

[Grungnisson]

6 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Ethereal 3+ followed by a 5+ ward? 😱

I could agree on the standar 6+ Ward in such circumstances.

[Acrozatarim]

4 minutes ago, Snarff said:

But if you're eying something smaller, you can always buy the Deathmaster? It's new, won't be replaced anytime soon and has plenty of cloth and metal to practice the scheme on. Though it can be easily proxied by the eshin UW warband leader as well depending on which sculpt you prefer.

The Deathmaster might be a good choice, though it feels odd to consider painting his robes in something that's not black

The Eshin UW warband look cool and, as you say, work well as proxies but I am having a hell of a time finding them for sale, compared to the other two warbands.

Mind you, if I knew for sure we were getting a good Plague Priest warscroll in the index I'd be very tempted indeed by the plague monk UW band,

[Arzalyn]

17 minutes ago, Sception said:

Exact points should depend on how points play out across the board, which we really haven't seen yet, but I'd definitely expect her to be around 200, certainly closer to 200 than to 300.  I'd pay more for her than for the previewed version of Reikenor, but not ~a lot~ more.  If she's 300 or above I'd expect her to see little use until the periodic points updates knock her down fair bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if she keeps the same points has she has now, or even go back to 300. Its bad to compare warscrolls between editions, but she got much more reliable recursion (at least 4 models per unit) and a much better spell that is easier to cast. Also being a hero she can guaranty a strike last when she charge with the new wave. Don't forget that we should expect a ~15% points increase based on what we saw in the masterclass list, so I wouldn't expect points drops.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

40 minutes ago, HCMistborn said:

I have to say, that Nighthaunt scheme for the spearhead is really nice. I like how cold it looks.

I think they are doing these schemes deliberately kind of simple to make them accessible to new players. Which is nice, I always liked the different levels of painting skill on display in older WHFB and 40k books.

[EntMan]

38 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

The rat-tail-fingered, earth-blackening skaven here reads a lot like some sort of lesser GHR daemon or herald.

Yes, and the fact he refers to the human as 'mortal' 

[Tonhel]

I can't say if NH are now better or not. We will have to see the points and play the game. But to me it feels almost everything will die very quickly. The damage output seems to be increased, while health and saves are more or less the same.

We have now seen 4 faction focus articles and I have yet to see a unit without rend. 😄 

 

[PraetorDragoon]

6 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

I can't say if NH are now better or not. We will have to see the points and play the game. But to me it feels almost everything will die very quickly. The damage output seems to be increased, while health and saves are more or less the same.

We have now seen 4 faction focus articles and I have yet to see a unit without rend. 😄 

 

I am reminded of the 40k faction previews where they claimed "less rerolls" and pretty much every preview had a reroll of some kind.

[Lucentia]

To be fair, they haven't really shown any warscrolls for base level chumps at this point.  But also, I'd much rather have rend 1 actually mean something as opposed to the current rules where it's often completely useless, so whatever, make everything R1, get a bit silly with it.

[Beliman]

11 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

We have now seen 4 faction focus articles and I have yet to see a unit without rend.

Most of the unit previewed are named characters, big monsters/elites or glass cannons. I mean, that's what they are supposed to be, but even that, -1 rend can be negated really quickly, so...

To be honest, I think that the damage will be less than 3.0, unless the right unit hit the right target, in that case, it should be more. And that's exactly what the game needs.

[Mutton]

Reliable debuffs on command are far superior to charge roll gambling. NH players should be celebrating.

[Tonhel]

11 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

I am reminded of the 40k faction previews where they claimed "less rerolls" and pretty much every preview had a reroll of some kind.

Haha, yeah 😄 

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Most of the unit previewed are named characters, big monsters/elites or glass cannons. I mean, that's what they are supposed to be, but even that, -1 rend can be negated really quickly, so...

To be honest, I think that the damage will be less than 3.0, unless the right unit hit the right target, in that case, it should be more. And that's exactly what the game needs.

You mean with all-out-defence? To me it seems it is the opposite, as with 3th it was much easier to negate rend (Finest hour, all-out-defence-Mysthic shield). Now it's almost impossible. They want to speed up the game. To me it seems they are trying to achieve it with increasing the lethality of the game. I have yet to see a unit, monster or hero that can survive an attack of Yndrasta. With lots of attacks / damage units are much faster removed from play.

Ofcourse we will only know this after playing the game for a couple of months.

[Sception]

37 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Reliable debuffs on command are far superior to charge roll gambling. NH players should be celebrating.

I don't think I agree.  The base debuff requires outnumbering, which significantly reduces its reliability.  They also effectively lost subfactions entirely, since they have to use their subfaction to get retreat & charge back, and charging is so important to them that I doubt other subfaction bonuses will be able to outweigh that even with the 1/game ability to re-charge without retreating first.  EDIT: I misread wave of terror.  It's once per turn, not once per game.  The subfaction for retreat and charge is still useful for positioning or getting vulnerable units out of trouble, but it shouldn't be mandatory like I first throught.

The previous debuffs were pretty reliable since you always got something, and all of them stacked.  AND these traits are every bit as dependent on the nighthaunts doing the charging, so they're still as vulnerable to fast enemies that charge them or tough enemies that can weather a charge and punch back.

I'm not saying the new situation is or will be bad, just that the faction traits on the whole seem weaker, so their actual core units will need to be better, or at least more efficient, if they want to start digging out of the hole they were in towards the end of 3e.  Though 'better' or 'more efficient' need to be measured in relation to how everyone else changes - if bladegheists stay the same but everything else in the game gets weaker then they've 'gotten better' - so even if we had seen previews of the bread and butter melee units, there'd still be no telling how it all shakes out till we get our spectral boots on the ground, so to speak.

EDIT: with wave of terror every battle round things are better than I thought when I first wrote this post, but still I think maybe a bit weaker than previous, due to the lack of stacking and the outnumbering requirement for shriek.  Def more predictable though.  In any event I'm still hoping for/looking for some improvement and role diversification for the faction's base line melee units.

Edited May 24 by Sception

[Acrozatarim]

7 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Haha, yeah 😄 

You mean with all-out-defence? To me it seems it is the opposite, as with 3th it was much easier to negate rend (Finest hour, all-out-defence-Mysthic shield). Now it's almost impossible. They want to speed up the game. To me it seems they are trying to achieve it with increasing the lethality of the game. I have yet to see a unit, monster or hero that can survive an attack of Yndrasta. With lots of attacks / damage units are much faster removed from play.

Ofcourse we will only know this after playing the game for a couple of months.

As I discussed on this thread back when the Skaven faction focus came out, Skreech Verminking does in fact survive Yndrasta's attacks on average, and he's right in her favoured target category. Can she kill him in one round? Yes, but he'll actually live more times than not.

[Acrozatarim]

4 minutes ago, Sception said:

They also effectively lost subfactions entirely, since they have to use their subfaction to get retreat & charge back, and charging is so important to them that I doubt other subfaction bonuses will be able to outweigh that even with the 1/game ability to re-charge without retreating first. 

Wave of Terror is once per turn, not once per game. Since it affects all your units it's essentially always-on except for stuff like the counter-charge ability in your opponents turn.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Seems as good a time as any to remind everyone that new faction rules always look their worst right at the switch, when you know what you lost but don't yet really understand what you gained.

[Acrozatarim]

As another point, just ran the numbers, and Yndrasta also fails to kill Olynder - on average she'll only knock a little over half the Mortarch of Grief's health off with both missile and melee attacks.

Edit: Yndrasta manages to kill 2 Annihilators, so she doesn't wipe that unit on the shoot and charge either. She does wipe a 3-man Prosecutor unit on average, though not by much margin.

Edit Edit: She kills Skagrott on average, but only by the absolute thinnest of margins. She's risible into the Dreadblade Harrows and Myrmourn Banshees, killing 1 Harrow or 2 Banshees. Lots of stuff survives what she can throw, though admittedly with Nighthaunt the Ethereal rule is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

Edited May 24 by Acrozatarim

[Sception]

8 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

Wave of Terror is once per turn, not once per game. Since it affects all your units it's essentially always-on except for stuff like the counter-charge ability in your opponents turn.

Thank you for the correction!  I misread that completely.

That does actually change the situation a fair bit.  I withdraw my comment about losing subfactions.

[Sception]

On 5/24/2024 at 1:06 PM, Acrozatarim said:

As another point, just ran the numbers, and Yndrasta also fails to kill Olynder - on average she'll only knock a little over half the Mortarch of Grief's health off with both missile and melee attacks.

notable that olynder isn't a monster in that particular match up.  That said, averages are well and good, but damages come in discrete chunks.  IF yndrasta lands her shooting attack, then she only needs to land a single melee attack to finish olynder off (though the average on that is still < 50% due to ethereal).  If she doesn't land the shooting attack, she can't kill olynder from full health that turn (at least not with her attack profiles alone).

EDIT: bad day for reading comprehension for me, I completely forgot yndrasta had a sword.  yeah, she can still absolutely kill olynder even if she doesn't land the shooting attack, though olynder still has a good chance to live on 2x 4++ saves.

Edited May 27 by Sception

[Acrozatarim]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

notable that olynder isn't a monster in that particular match up.  That said, averages are well and good, but damages come in discrete chunks.  IF yndrasta lands her shooting attack, then she only needs to land a single melee attack to finish olynder off (though the average on that is still < 50% due to ethereal).  If she doesn't land the shooting attack, she can't kill olynder from full health that turn (at least not with her attack profiles alone).

Sure, but averages are averages, and important to consider from the point of whether committing a unit is likely to do what you want it to do.

The claim was that nothing we've seen so far could survive 'an attack' from Yndrasta, which I interpret to mean a turn of shooting and melee (since they can certainly survive a single attack!). The truth is that the numbers just don't agree.

[Tonhel]

30 minutes ago, Sception said:

I don't think I agree.  The base debuff requires outnumbering, which significantly reduces its reliability.  They also effectively lost subfactions entirely, since they have to use their subfaction to get retreat & charge back, and charging is so important to them that I doubt other subfaction bonuses will be able to outweigh that even with the 1/game ability to re-charge without retreating first.  and the previous debuffs were pretty reliable since you always got something, and all of them stacked.  AND these traits are every bit as dependent on the nighthaunts doing the charging, so they're still as vulnerable to fast enemies that charge them or tough enemies that can weather a charge and punch back.

I'm not saying the new situation is or will be bad, just that the faction traits on the whole seem weaker, so their actual core units will need to be better, or at least more efficient, if they want to start digging out of the hole they were in towards the end of 3e.  Though 'better' or 'more efficient' need to be measured in relation to how everyone else changes - if bladegheists stay the same but everything else in the game gets weaker then they've 'gotten better' - so even if we had seen previews of the bread and butter melee units, there'd still be no telling how it all shakes out till we get our spectral boots on the ground, so to speak.

Yeah, Outnumbering is not so easy as it seems (imo) + a practical thought with the 0,5" coherency rule NH are not the most friendly faction for it.

16 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

As another point, just ran the numbers, and Yndrasta also fails to kill Olynder - on average she'll only knock a little over half the Mortarch of Grief's health off with both missile and melee attacks.

If you run the numbers, who am I to doubt that. 🙂 Still Olynder has no benefit of All-out-defence, while Yndrasta can use the Finest Hour or All-out-Attack, meaning she also has a 3+/2+ or a 2+/3+ with her sword. So 4+ to block the attacks and than an additional 4+ ward per damage. Imo, huge possibility that Olynder is death. If the SCE player wants to kill something with Yndrasta and commits to it. Huge charge range + insane damage output. It will mostly succeed.

My very subjective feeling is that the SCE players needs to roll a lot of 1s and the NH player needs to roll a lot of 4+ to have any change against Yndrasta 😄.

Edited May 24 by Tonhel

[Goatforce]

Well.... I hate Olynder's warscroll. Her raise the veil is just a bad shooting attack. No Rest buff is good but other than that they nerfed what was already the weakest of the Mortarchs by a massive margin, rather than raising her up to be around the other's level. I guess perhaps all will be getting the same treatment (dissapointing if true) but this was a golden opportunity to make her shine, instead they got rid of a load of her cool stuff and made her like old Belakor by the look of it, think she will only be taken for her once a battle ability. Early days of course but that is the vibe I am getting.

 

Could have at least given her a bloody +1 to cast.....

[Acrozatarim]

5 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

 

If you run the numbers, who am I to doubt that. 🙂 Still Olynder has no benefit of All-out-defence, while Yndrasta can use the Finest Hour or All-out-Attack, meaning she also has a 3+/2+ or a 2+/3+ with her sword. So 4+ to block the attacks and than an additional 4+ ward per damage. Imo, huge possibility that Olynder is death. If the SCE player wants to kill something with Yndrasta and commits to it. Huge charge range + insane damage output.

My very subjective feeling is that the SCE players needs to roll a lot of 1s and the NH player needs to roll a lot of 4+ to have any change against Yndrasta 😄.

Sure, but if we want to start pulling in outside options, OIynder has a spell right there on her Warscroll to deny Yndrasta those bonuses, and it's not exactly hard to cast - and this is for someone who, as others have pointed out, is not exactly a massive powerhouse of a combatant.

Yndrasta isn't quite the boogeyman that saying nothing we've seen will survive a round of attacks from her would suggest.

Edited May 24 by Acrozatarim

[Tonhel]

4 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

Sure, but if we want to start pulling in outside options, OIynder has a spell right there on her Warscroll to deny Yndrasta those bonuses, and it's not exactly hard to cast - and this is for someone who, as others have pointed out, is not exactly a massive powerhouse of a combatant.

Yndrasta isn't quite the boogeyman that saying nothing we've will survive a round of attacks from her would suggest.

True, but than it's still a 3+/3+ for the blade. Maybe I am to blinded by the Yndrasta warscroll, but she seems very dangerous and not only for monsters. I am curious if a non mounted hero in game will top it.

Edited May 24 by Tonhel