AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion

[alghero81]

27 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Thanks for the reply. I'm really trying to diversify my play style and reckon I should try out a bit of LoG. Completely forgot you can run a Mortis Engine in it. The way I see it, I was thinking just NH but with a necro or 2. Pointless saying it but... wish LoG could take vamps!

With Legions of Grief you can have a lot of fun, but yes the Vampires would give you those 3 Deadly Invocations per turn that are really nice. To get to something similar you need Mortarchs, but then to introduce other Mortarchs you need first Olynder and when Olynder is playing she is the general and you lose the Command Trait.. But if you are not going for Bravery debuffs but want only some of the advantages of Legions with a more ghostly approach I believe LoG can be fun. I'm playing a fun game with Shrieker Host against Tzeentch (bravey 10) tomorrow and will let you know.

[lare2]

1 hour ago, alghero81 said:

With Legions of Grief you can have a lot of fun...

Please do let us know mate. Be good to hear how it goes. 

Don't own Lady O but would probably avoid her anywho. Flogged off my other mortarchs as well... they're just not for me. Would run the standard dreadblade I reckon.

In regards to the latter, you'd want your general to have the bravery debuff characteristic but then you'd want to keep him safe so that he can teleport for grave resurrection. It all sounds a bit counterintuitive though. On one hand you want him in the thick of it to debuff but then you run the risk of him popping his clogs. 

Think I need to watch some batreps. 

[Bayul]

So if anybody – a TO for example – would try to question the Nighthaunt battalion I choose for my Legion of Grief army, I would just need to point out that I can select it in GW's own app and I'll be fine?

I need to own the Nighthaunt Battletome as well in that case, right?

[Sauriv]

LoG has no battalions, you can take NH battalions but as an ally (not being able to fit anything of value). 

The list building tools aren't perfect. 

[alghero81]

But why would it count as an ally? The battalions have the keyword Nighthaunt and the Legion of Grief mentions that anything with that keyword is part of Legion of Grief, therefore the battalions should be playable, isn’t it?

Which rule would mention otherwise? I honestly didn’t find it. I can see all other allegiance abilities (spells, command traits, etc.) are limited to the allegiance and the full army needs to belong to that allegiance, but battalions are not part of allegiance abilities.

And even if you take the battalion as allied, all units in it wouldn’t count as ally since the rule I quoted above mentions units belonging to a different allegiance like Stormcast and daughters but Nighthaunt belong to Legion of Grief. Right? I think this deserves an FAQ.

Edited October 6, 2019 by alghero81

[Sällsam]

7 hours ago, alghero81 said:

I think this deserves an FAQ.

I agree. My interpretation is the same as yours: anything goes as long as the keywords line up (and that's why you can take Nagash, even though it's weird from a LoN perspective). I've mailed GW on at least three different occasions about this, I suggest anyone who is wondering to do the same! 

[alghero81]

The email address to contact is the customer service (mailto:uk.custserv@gwplc.com) or there’s one specific for rule questions?

[Sällsam]

2 minutes ago, alghero81 said:

The email address to contact is the customer service (mailto:uk.custserv@gwplc.com) or there’s one specific for rule questions?

AoSFAQ@gwplc.com

Flood it! 

[alghero81]

Thanks!

[ColsBols]

I did, and they told me they couldn't help me. "Unfortunately we are not able to answer rules questions through the customer service line because only our rules writers can provide official answers"

[alghero81]

I wrote to them with a mention to Cities of Sigmar so maybe we can get an answer in the next CoS FAQ. Although now that I'm looking at that book it seems different, indeed the battalions are not available in Azyr for them, but they are for Lethisian. The fact that they don't use keywords but all units are specifically named puts them in a different position. However, by the same account, you could take for example a Stormcast battalion and pay only that cost in ally points as long as all units in the battalion respect the other rules (1 in 4 Stormcast don't count as allies).

Let's see what they say. Tomorrow I'll write my battle rep. Suffice to say Tzeentch did not approve so much change this time around...

[IkedaT]

Thanks everyone for the help.  LOG will be represented at our Crucible.  I made some of the modifications you guys mentioned but also found that I vastly prefer a second Dreadblade.  We'll see how it goes.

[Ferrus65]

Stunning army, IkedaT.  Beautiful work!

[Bayul]

@IkedaT Incredible. Those little Gravesites are a nice touch. 

Is this Nihilakh Oxide on White Corax? Why do you have two Dreadblade Harrows?

[Sauriv]

34 minutes ago, Bayul said:

@IkedaT Incredible. Those little Gravesites are a nice touch. 

Is this Nihilakh Oxide on White Corax? Why do you have two Dreadblade Harrows?

It's probably because with two Dreadblade, the general can resurrect destroyed units at one gravesite while the other can pop out units that you hid in the graves at another gravesite. 

Gives more utility and you can always threaten with a objective grab even if no gravesite is near the objective (the general could have more important things to do). 

[IkedaT]

2 hours ago, Sauriv said:

It's probably because with two Dreadblade, the general can resurrect destroyed units at one gravesite while the other can pop out units that you hid in the graves at another gravesite. 

Gives more utility and you can always threaten with a objective grab even if no gravesite is near the objective (the general could have more important things to do). 

This.  I was having difficulty on my games keeping up with some armies.  Just having 2 and a couple of units in the grave keeps them on their guard.  And it ALSO means I don't necessarily have to put my general into danger to deploy some of the bigger units.  The OTHER issue was that with the way I built the list... I have 110 free.  So I needed 120 for KOSoES.  For the price Harrow was more utilitarian.

 

3 hours ago, Bayul said:

@IkedaT 
Is this Nihilakh Oxide on White Corax? Why do you have two Dreadblade Harrows?

It is a 1:4 Nihilakh Oxide with Lahmian Medium.  About 3-4 coats on every model.  I love the look, but it's insane.

 

I also had to make "modifications" to earn some bonus "hobby" points at the tourney.  Hence the flames, the weird sword, and the Chainrasp Warden that isn't very seeable in the picture.

Edited October 9, 2019 by IkedaT
Addendum

[RuneBrush]

On 10/7/2019 at 9:03 PM, ColsBols said:

I did, and they told me they couldn't help me. "Unfortunately we are not able to answer rules questions through the customer service line because only our rules writers can provide official answers"

You need to send all queries to aosfaq@gwplc.com 🙂

[EMMachine]

On 10/7/2019 at 1:16 AM, alghero81 said:

But why would it count as an ally? The battalions have the keyword Nighthaunt and the Legion of Grief mentions that anything with that keyword is part of Legion of Grief, therefore the battalions should be playable, isn’t it?

Which rule would mention otherwise? I honestly didn’t find it. I can see all other allegiance abilities (spells, command traits, etc.) are limited to the allegiance and the full army needs to belong to that allegiance, but battalions are not part of allegiance abilities.

And even if you take the battalion as allied, all units in it wouldn’t count as ally since the rule I quoted above mentions units belonging to a different allegiance like Stormcast and daughters but Nighthaunt belong to Legion of Grief. Right? I think this deserves an FAQ.

It's part of a problem I have in this thread, too, after they basicly created a new hole last weekend.

The Problem with Legion of Grief is that the Allegiance only gives units the Keyword, but not Battalions. And after the FAQs I quoted in my thread above want that the Battalion has the Keyword or is from the same battletome (in that case the Legion of Grief) the Battalion is not part of the Allegiance.

Edited October 10, 2019 by EMMachine

[alghero81]

Hey a bit late but here is my battle report. After following the various conversations I'm not convinced but it seems logical battalions cannot be used outside of the allegiance. Although the wording is not clear and different books made different statements. I hope they are going to rephrase it in a doubt-free way.

Anyway I used the Nighthaunt Shriekhost battalion that makes the opponent re-roll the 1s in the battleshock phase and can't use inspiring presence. We had a friendly match so it was not a real competitive test. 
I had the battalion with 1 Banshee, 2 units of 5 Harridans, 2 units of 4 Myrmourn. Dreadblade as general, a Wight King and a unit of grave guard, a Guardian of Souls, Reikenor, a Necromancer, a unit of 20 Chainrasp, 2 units of Dire Wolves, a unit of 10 Grimghast and the Mercenary FEC with a unit of 3 Flayers. And a horrorghast I never used.

My opponent had a Lord of Change, an Ogroid Thaumarurge, an Exalted Screamer, 3 units of Screamers, 2 units of 10 Acolytes and 20 Tzaangors.

The battleplan was Total Conquest.

Obviously I started first and kept 2 units of Dire Wolves in the underworld ready to pop up at a later stage and stayed back to avoid being too close to his shooting. He double turned me and his shooting was pretty much deadly with the Myrmourn gone immediately (4 wounds total are just not enough). the Chainrasp following after (refused to inspire them), the Grimghast and one unit of Harridans. But the third turn I double turned and things changed drastically. By relying on shooting he did not even get close to my objectives. The bravery missile attacks are deadly, against the demons (bravery 10) not much but against the Acolytes and the Tzaangors brought at bravery 2 was deadly (6 acolites gone in one attack). Add the battleshock that wiped entire damaged units and he was left with only the screamers and the lord of change. He used inspiring on his Tzaangors until he had the hero to cover them but the Grave Guard (the banner gives another -1 bravery) with +1 attack from the Wight King, do a lot of damage with 31 attacks 3+/3+ rend -1 and double damage on a wound of 6...

By the end of third turn I had my chainrasps back from the graveyard surrounding the objective on the opponent left flank and the Dogs and another resurrected unit pur the numbers on the right flank to take all 4 objectives. A not so lucky magic round meant he did not have enough points to summon demons to get back some objectives and he conceded considering he had his Lord of Change entirely surrounded.

Some take-aways even removing the battalion: the Flayers are a good option with decent attacks and the bravery missile. Not sure you can afford to give up a command point, but I guess I could leave home the Horrorghast instead and buy a CP. 
The Harridans are useful with their -1 to hit if you can bring their bravery to 5 or less. The Grave Guards are another big winner with an extra -1 bravery and decent attacks, useful to keep in defence to turtle an objective.

Some losers: Myrmourn in units of 4 are useless, the Wight King gives only +1 attack to the Grave Guard so it's use really depends on if you have to bring back destroyed units or not... and too many drops but that cannot be avoided without battalions.

[Thamalys]

22 hours ago, alghero81 said:

Some losers: Myrmourn in units of 4 are useless

I have experimented with these lasses for a while... from 4 up to 12, with very little success in most cases. As you suggest, they only make sense in units of 12, where they get that amazing +3 to unbind - that is, if some shooty opponent doesn't wipe them out first turn. In fact,  just one wound in and suddenly we are talking  2+ already...

Anyway, the obvious problem is the unbinding range: 18'', which means that what you really take them for is a very expensive screen  - to try and avoid the truckload of MWs that the Lord of Change at the other side of the table is about to dump on you. That sort of works - for 210 points, though.

"Ah, but they can dish some proper, high-rend damage, though!" - some would say. Well... maybe - I never truly managed. A unit of 12 with a - 2 rend is not really easy to manouver against that enemy hero/monster with a 3+ save that you desperately need to bracket/slain.  D3 damage? Yes, real nice - only one attack each, though. Using their +1 attack following a successful unbind is rare (clever players know these girls...), and if you think about it, 5 blood knights guarantee an awful lot of damage for 10 points less, even taken outside LoB. Yes, you take the crimson jousters for a very different reason, but still.

I still field them the banshees in NH/LoG because they are fun: if&when they connect with the dispel+charge combo (with an additional +1 attack from a mounted KoS) we are laughing, but in a competitive list (I find) they tend to die before getting the chance of doing anything useful. For 210 points - 1CP later they might be back in LoG, but in NH you spend most of the time trying to keeping them safe, waiting for that arcane bolt to dispel with ease...

Which is a shame, because I really do like the models (well, 3 out of 4 of them at least, one seems to have been ethereally impaled onto something).

If only they had two wounds each *sighs*

 

[alghero81]

@Thamalys I 100% agree with what you said. And in LoG for that price you can field 15 wolves that may not have the same save and bonus, but move 12" and have 30 wounds instead of 12... Personally I use them in smaller units to grab that far away objective coming out of a graveyard or to harass the back line.

For 240 points you can have 15 Harridans that I like much more. Another comparison that I personally like but no one uses are the Glaivewraith Stalkers. The problem is that for some reason they don't have rend... And the Bladegheist have much more use with that +1 attack on charge and 3+/3+ with -1 rend.

Nighthaunt are so easy to wipe out I don't understand why Bonesplitterz would have an ability specifically designed to give us only malus...

[Sauriv]

The interesting thing about those ladies is that you can get up to 4 attacks per model. 

Unbind in the enemy hero phase. 

In your turn, dispel one of your easy-to-cast endless spells. Gain one more attack from KoSoES. 

[IkedaT]

Ok here are my thoughts. 

I went 2:2 dropping game 5 as I wasn't feeling well (thanks Con-bug).  I lost to Hosts of Slaanesh 3 giant ladies (barely) in Game 1 and FEC Grisselgore (?) 3 Terror (100% my fault).  I beat Troggoth Spam and Sylvaneth.  2 Harrows were awesome but the second Harrow basically sat around after my In the Grave guys were summoned.  I tried to hang him near the banshee's for Mortal saves.  

Chainrasp 2x10,1x40 was FANTASTIC.  Especially when they spent the time to wipe the 40 and have me drop them on their heads.

Kudross earned himself no LESS than 8 CPs over those games.  Aetherquartz and the Helm did far less.

Dreadscythes were a "big bad" that were focused on when they came from the grave and I spit them out at opponents a few times.  Worth it.

Necromancer was underwhelming.  Maybe because when Dance Macabre went off (finally, I had a crappy spell casting tourney) it wasn't really useful.

General Harrow did perfect.  I thought I measured the FEC Terrorgeist charge+move correct but mismeasured by half an inch which led him to be wiped bottom of 1.  Prior to that, he brought out the Dread's and had the opponent lose a whole unit top of 1.  Miscalc on my part cost me the whole game.

Reikenor cut himself and cut himself and cut himself.... and got Purple sun off twice.  No joke, one game I rolled 4 snake eyes for spell casting.  Over the course of the tourney with 3 spell casters I THINK I only made 4 spells occur total (2X Purple Sun, 1x Horrorghast, 1x Dance).  The banshees stopped a single spell.  And 2 units of 8 wasn't a good way to go.

Tourney was 24 people.  Khorne took first, Slaan second, FEC third.  I think there were 3 Slaan spams, Khorne, 1 Nurgle, 2 SCE, 2 Orcs, 3 FEC, 1 Order, my Legion of Grief, 2 Seraphon, 1 Khaine, 1 Deepkin, 2 Gloomspite (both Trog heavy), and I can't remember the rest.

I pulled best painted in Underworlds for Lady Harrow's.  I lost to 2 lists that involved S1->3 and wouldn't exist in new format so not really saddened.  

 

LoG currently has responses to most of the factions.  We can put a serious hurt on some (like Slaanesh) if we can come back enough.  Others who knew how to shut down my graves did so very effectively (Sylvaneth player did fantastic at this).  Honestly, my Maggotkin would have done better but I'm pleased with LoG.  If my dice had rolled hotter (median) and I had not boned up my own FEC match-up I would have easily been top 5 with them.  That's not terrible.

 

Lessons:

Don't do 2x 8 Banshee's.  Maybe 2x 12 is better in the meta but maybe just one unit of 12.

Dreadscythes stayed alive MUCH better in unit of 20, but it's hard to call them from the grave.  When you do, it's ferocious with the reroll to charge.

I hate spells.  And there was so little I could do against the people I faced that could make them run.  I didn't see nearly the Skaven and Gobbos I expected to see.

Edited October 14, 2019 by IkedaT

[Bayul]

15 hours ago, IkedaT said:

Lessons:

Don't do 2x 8 Banshee's.  Maybe 2x 12 is better in the meta but maybe just one unit of 12.

Could Hexwraiths be an alternative in the list? Fullfilling an other role that is.  I didn't try it yet but with movement 12" and proper gravesite placing they could harrass the enemys backline over and over. You'd have a hammer for your anvil (40 chainrasps) and wouldn't need to worry about dispells that way. 

[alghero81]

Have to be honest Hexwraith for some reason scare the bejesus out of people. For their cost I don’t mind people focus on them when my other girls do their job. I always have at least a unit.