AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Elazar The Glorified]

The limitations on stuff out of the Slaves to Darkness book with the Slaanesh keyword is 1 in every 2 isn't it? So your Soul Grinder list works from an is it legal perspective as long as the points work.

[TimeToWaste85]

30 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

The limitations on stuff out of the Slaves to Darkness book with the Slaanesh keyword is 1 in every 2 isn't it? So your Soul Grinder list works from an is it legal perspective as long as the points work.

Cool. It does fit and I have room for a spawn even (makes it 2k even)

horrible? Awesome? You guys decide. I don’t own (or want) 33 Blissbarbs. Lol

[mcnuggs]

I’ve been unable to decide on taking Sigvald, Synessa, or Dexcessa, so I decided to make a list with all three. So far I have:

 

Sigvald 265

Synessa 260

Dexcessa 280

 

10x Twinsouls 370

11x BBArchers 180

11x BBArchers 180

5x Hellstriders w/ Clawspears 135

 

This leaves me with 330 points remaining. I could take some more units to have some more bodies on the board, but I want to have a generic character for a Command Trait/Item. My thoughts were either the Epitome + Cogs package for Acquiescence + bonus casts for Synessa, or a Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot kitted out for combat with the 5++ amulet. Thoughts? Is taking Synessa and Dexcessa overkill? Am I doomed without Belakor??

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, mcnuggs said:

I’ve been unable to decide on taking Sigvald, Synessa, or Dexcessa, so I decided to make a list with all three. So far I have:

 

Sigvald 265

Synessa 260

Dexcessa 280

 

10x Twinsouls 370

11x BBArchers 180

11x BBArchers 180

5x Hellstriders w/ Clawspears 135

 

This leaves me with 330 points remaining. I could take some more units to have some more bodies on the board, but I want to have a generic character for a Command Trait/Item. My thoughts were either the Epitome + Cogs package for Acquiescence + bonus casts for Synessa, or a Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot kitted out for combat with the 5++ amulet. Thoughts? Is taking Synessa and Dexcessa overkill? Am I doomed without Belakor??

2 games so far with the Exalted Bladebringer says 100% bring them, they're amazing.  More even than Dexcessa. 

[mcnuggs]

1 minute ago, KrispyXIV said:

2 games so far with the Exalted Bladebringer says 100% bring them, they're amazing.  More even than Dexcessa. 

Really?? How did you use them? How did they compare to Dexcessa? My table access is limited, and I’m pressed for money right now, so I’m really checking my bases.

[KrispyXIV]

9 minutes ago, mcnuggs said:

Really?? How did you use them? How did they compare to Dexcessa? My table access is limited, and I’m pressed for money right now, so I’m really checking my bases.

So, Dexcessa turn one has like... 12 theoretical damage.  She's -1 to be hit, which is nice, but only a 4+ save with no ward which is lackluster.  I like the extra CP. 

The Exalted Bladebringer, on the other hand, is literally hell on wheels the moment it lands it charge.  Start with excess of blades, which is Mortal Wounds on a 2+ to EVERYTHING it ends a charge within an inch of... and its got a huge base.  Follow that IMMEDIATELY with MORE mortal wounds on a 2+ to EVERYTHING within an inch of it in the combat phase, and you're looking at 4-5 reliable damage to everything in the general vicinity before making attacks with it that bypassed anything but ward saves (the mortal wounds, not the attacks - those rely on quantity over quality).  

Then you follow that with a lot of attacks.  Lots of attacks.  Maybe more than 30 attacks, depending on how well you rolled on pungent soulscent.  All of which can be buffed with All Out Attack and Finest Hour.  Also, pick the one with the the biggest number of attacks to Flaming Weapon up to D2.  And then 6s hit twice.  Glorious. 

Someone correct me if I screwed something up in that description, because I'm high as hell on what these guys bring to the table.  If it's your general, you can push this even further for ludicrous effect. 

All for more than 100 points less than a Keeper, and no degrading profile. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[mcnuggs]

14 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

So, Dexcessa turn one has like... 12 theoretical damage.  She's -1 to be hit, which is nice, but only a 4+ save with no ward which is lackluster.  I like the extra CP. 

The Exalted Bladebringer, on the other hand, is literally hell on wheels the moment it lands it charge.  Start with excess of blades, which is Mortal Wounds on a 2+ to EVERYTHING it ends a charge within an inch of... and its got a huge base.  Follow that IMMEDIATELY with MORE mortal wounds on a 2+ to EVERYTHING within an inch of it in the combat phase, and you're looking at 4-5 reliable damage to everything in the general vicinity before making attacks with it that bypassed anything but ward saves (the mortal wounds, not the attacks - those rely on quantity over quality).  

Then you follow that with a lot of attacks.  Lots of attacks.  Maybe more than 30 attacks, depending on how well you rolled on pungent soulscent.  All of which can be buffed with All Out Attack and Finest Hour.  Also, pick the one with the the biggest number of attacks to Flaming Weapon up to D2.  And then 6s hit twice.  Glorious. 

Someone correct me if I screwed something up in that description, because I'm high as hell on what these guys bring to the table.  If it's your general, you can push this even further for ludicrous effect. 

All for more than 100 points less than a Keeper, and no degrading profile. 

That… makes a lot of sense. I guess I was focusing pretty heavily on Dexcessa’s individuality, which the Chariot also seems to have. That also saves me on shmoney, considering that I already have the Chariot. With all that in mind, how does this look:

 

Godseekers Host

General: Bladebringer on Exalt

Trait: Sweeping Slash (D3 Mortals on Charge) OR Speed-Chaser (Retreat and Charge)

Artefact: OP Amulet of 5++ 

Spell: Flaming Weapons

Sigvald

Synessa

Contorted Epitome

10x Twinsouls

11x Blissbarb Archers

11x Blissbarb Archers

5x Hellstriders w/Clawspears

That leaves me with 90 points for endless spells. That could be one of our ES, or the Cogs for an Arcane Bolt on the Chariot (D3 more MWs!) and an extra cast from Synessa. Only thing with the Cogs is that I’m left with 45 pts, and that’s not enough for anything. Any advice is appreciated!

 

[Enoby]

24 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Someone correct me if I screwed something up in that description, because I'm high as hell on what these guys bring to the table.  If it's your general, you can push this even further for ludicrous effect. 

I think you're correct on what you've said, but there are a couple of things that make Dex a contender.

Without a +1 to wound and/or flaming weapon, the chariot has a high chance of fluffing wound rolls and only getting a little bit of damage in. Their save isn't great either (and no -1 to hit to compensate) so they can end up chewed up in a bad situation (which is harder to avoid due to slower speed). However I think their biggest downfall is their lack of mobility; with only 10" move base and no retreat and charge, or fly, they can get walled off easily with chaff and countercharged - or even just end up stuck in a tarpit. 

Dex, when MWs are considered, will do less damage but they have monster abilities and considerably more mobility.  I think they fulfill different roles - the exalted chariot is a big pile of mortal wounds and potentially a lot of damage, but is easily screened against. Dex is more consistent on lower damage and can get to more important pieces, and importantly can flee a combat to be useful elsewhere - as well as having a very reliable first turn charge. 

@mcnuggs to consider

To provide some stats, an exalted chariot does 5.8 damage against a 4+ save and Dex does 5.4. Then tossing in the mortal wounds (on a charge) for about an average 4 extra - so 9.8 damage unbuffed. 

So you do about 5 extra damage, get a spell (with no bonus), and get an artifact/command trait if you want. Dexcessa instead gives average 6" extra movement, fly, a -1 to hit, retreat and charge, an increasing profile later on (7.2 turn 2, 9 turn 3), monster abilities (combined with speed and fly for demolition expert), and a free command point every turn. And battleshock immunity on close daemons, for the one time that may come up.

It really just depends on what you're looking for more - neither, imo, is the correct choice it's more about what you want in your list

Edited July 6, 2021 by Enoby

[Nagashfan]

9 hours ago, Enoby said:

So just heard back from Michael about his list

@Nagashfan if you're interesied

"The list is designed to maximise with the use of battletactics and scenarios. Synessa and belakor are disruption pieces which help mitigate against the double turn plus any god lists. The archers pick on any threat, that I need them too. Against the dok the 2 units took out 7x stalkers in one turn. 30 inch range with both units using 1 of the vanguard command is handy. Twinsouls and belakor are the hard hitting combat units"

They then said you could swap Be'lekor and a unit of Hellstriders out for Glutos and you'd have a similar list I think Be'lekor and Glutos have similar damage, with Glutos being more survivable.  

Thanks man very interested! I think I’ll be getting another unit of blissbarbs and some blissseekers also!

[Jaskier]

It's important to not undersell Dexcessa's increasing damage output over the course of a game, especially as you can get an effective 25" flying charging threat range for the price of a command ability to ensure she runs 6" and makes that turn one charge - and she gets to use a free command on herself every turn, meaning she gets two free commands per round, so it's not like she needs any extra help.

Her being so insanely mobile with the ability to run or retreat and charge with a 12" flying move means she will always get where she needs to go, and her damage output graduates from decent to terrifying around about the turn three mark where she'll be moderately powered up and almost certainly have a summoned Keeper behind her. Unless you successfully cast an 8+ spell, an Exalted Chariot can't fly, and even then they're still not nearly as mobile. 

She's also a Bravery 10 monster, meaning she has a bunch of extra rules - including an easy D3 for Heroic Recoveries - and from what I've noted those two free commands you get each round make a huge difference in Lurid Haze so she can freely give herself +1 save as necessary and still let another unit get the benefit too. Because of her power up mechanic and how easy it is both to start it early and to get a summoned Keeper out, she's a relatively inexpensive threat that can completely dominate a flank solo and absolutely can't be ignored. 

[mcnuggs]

Thank you so much for the write ups. Much to think about… for now, I’m going to get Synessa and try her + Bladebringer out on the table and see if I would prefer Dex. Will report back!

[Nagashfan]

So I had a 1000 point first time playing 3rd game today. Took:

Sigvald

InfernalE

the masque 

blissbarbs

hellstriders

seekers

used lurid haze and the one drop battalion. 
 

my opponent was winterleaf sylvaneth and we played the first battle from the handbook where you auto win from round 3 on if you take all objectives.

I didn’t write the battle down to keep track but I round 4 tabled my opponent. Sigvald wiffed in two rounds of combat and only killed a branchwraith. The masque was awesome, heals and her ward save. The blissbarbs were great also, good damage and threat right at the start. Was able to summon a bladebringer and a keeper over the course of the game. The army was a lot of fun to play.

[Yoid]

Another plus on Dexcessa over the Bladebringer (even when Bladebringer is awesome) is that she count as 5 models, while Bladebringer only count as 2 models. You can easily take a point that is camped by another non-monster hero or an elite unit of 5 guys (you only need to kill one) while capturing it with a Bladebringer is harder (need to kill the hero or kill 4 guys in the elite unit)

[Selpharia]

I used both the Bladebringer and Dex and they work well together. Dexxie is a bully, she wants to find the squishiest thing in the opposing back line and stomp it. The Bladebringer is a missile that wants to hit the center of all the opponent’s screens to deal 2d3 to most of them and limit their mobility. I run Godseekers and love retreat/charge on the herald just to threaten a repeat performance 

[Jaskier]

I've been doing lots of math for a whole bunch of non-leader units lately as the Coalition rules give us plenty of options with which to fill out our ranks and, naturally, understanding the value of each option is key to success. Let's just say I've had some very interesting results when trying to suss out what combat blocks I want to use - for reference, my damage comparsons (any references to damage are in terms of unsaved damage) have all been against a 4+ save baseline, and I'm assuming certain buffs in places where they will almost definitely appear, as well as 'optimal' unit sizes. I'm also taking into account how many models get to strike, as the new coherency rules make this a critical consideration; 6 Fiends are best 4 wide at the front with the back 2 turned sideways behind to maximise their claw attacks (it's a trade-off of 4 claw attacks VS 2 stinger attacks, in most cases the former is preferred) while 6 Dragon Ogors are best 3 wide all turned sideways so their 2" weapons can reach, as they can't strike from the back row if the front row are angled straight ahead. Lastly, I've ignored units like Ungors and Cultists as they aren't really 'combat blocks'. 

Starting with Hedonites - all of which have access to a double pile-in and innately have exploding 6s - a block of 10 Symbaresh is by far our best damage dealer, averaging 20+ damage (assuming re-roll hits) for 370 points. 5 Slickblades comparatively put out ~11 damage for 230 points (and 5 Hellstriders with whips average 4-5 for 135 points) and 6 Fiends (only 4 get to strike) average 11/13/16 damage depending on the Stinger interaction for 400 points. 20 Daemonettes (even in a block of 30 it's probable only ~20 will get to attack, but they retain the triple 6s longer) average ~9 damage for 280 points, and lastly 5 Myrmidesh average 5-6 damage for 160 points.  

On to Beasts, and this is where it gets a bit tricky, as they don't have too many "universal" or "easy" buffs compared to Hedonites and Slaves, and are the only ones without a double pile-in option. 6 Dragon Ogors (assuming they are using the 2" weapons, so all 6 get to strike but only 4 would get to use their foreclaws) are fairly mediocre as they average 8 damage (increasing to 10-11 if a Shaggoth is nearby) for 300 points. 10 Bestigors (using the triangle method so they can all strike) change a lot based on certain circumstances but are undeniably the best; off the charge is ~5 damage, on the charge is ~7 damage, charge plus attacking a unit of 10+ models is ~9 damage and so on for 135 points. 6 Bullgors (only 4 get to strike) average 11 damage (or closer to 14-15 if buffed by a Doombull) for 310 points. 20 Gors (we'll be generous with the triangle method and say 18 can attack) average about 5-6 damage for 150 points (but like Marauders, losing one model stuffs them up.) 

Next up is Slaves; these have a few ways to access re-rolling hits and wounds, as well as the option for a double pile-in. A block of 20 Chaos Warriors (again, using the triangle method so ~18 can attack) averages about 4-5 damage for 200 points. 10 Chaos Knights (2" lances means in the right formation they can all strike, but lose half the steed attacks) average 5/6 damage off the charge and ~13/14 damage on the charge for 340 points (and note they will usually have +1 to-hit from a mounted Chaos Lord, which spikes their damage up to 17/18.) 10 Chosen (triangles ahoy) average 14 damage for 290 points, 20 Marauders average about 9 damage for 180 points, but with the disclaimer that their damage drops off harshly as soon as they lose a single model. 3 Varanguard (using Daemonforged Blades) do ~8-9 damage, increasing to about 11-12 with Archaon present, and have a free one-use double pile-in - all for 280 points. 

So, there's a few rough conclusions we can draw from there; Marauders are specifically good if they can hit first to ensure they keep their Rend, meaning they are a prime ambusher in Lurid Haze. Bestigors are the best damage dealers per-point IF they get the ideal scenario with all their buffs (and handily don't need any supporting characters to do so) but are cursed with 32mm bases and 1" range. Fiends aren't great unless they're fighting units with 4+ wounds. Chosen are very nasty, but like the other 32mm units, getting them all to attack even with the triangle method isn't always a sure bet. Chaos Warriors are the worst by far, especially once you comsider they should be in blocks of 20+ and how awful the logistics of 1" reach is with 20 models on 32mm bases in the new edition - letting 18 strike in the numbers above was being very generous. Chaos Knights can struggle a bit too even with their 2" reach if you're not careful. 

Of course, damage isn't everything. Mobility is obviously important, where ambushing Marauders (in a sense) and Slickblades reign supreme, followed closely by Bestigors, Chaos Knights and Daemonettes. Bravery is an issue for all these units, but some much moreso than others; Bestigors, Marauders and Slickblades suffer the most when considering both how quickly they lose models and their Bravery scores. However, I'd argue durability is the other key factor here; to get a rough idea on how they fare, each of the aforementioned units will be divided by their base save and then rated by points-per-wound (ppw) in their class, as well as noting any additional defensive rules. The higher your base save, the better, especially with how Rend and save stacking are applied currently.

3+ - Varanguard; ~19 ppw (ignore spell effects on a 5+) 

4+ - Chaos Warriors and Dragon Ogors; 10 ppw (Chaos Warriors have a 5++ against mortal wounds and conditional 3+ save in 10+ unit size) Chaos Knights; ~11 ppw (5++ against mortal wounds) Bestigors and Hellstriders; 13.5 ppw (Hellstridrers impose -1 to-hit on the charge) Chosen; 14.5 ppw, Myrmidesh; 16 ppw (conditional 3+ save against melee attacks) Symbaresh; 18.5 ppw (have an alternating/not always active 5++)

5+ - Gors; 7.5 ppw (conditional 4+ save against melee attacks) Slickblades; 11.5 ppw, Bullgors; ~13 ppw (can have a conditional 4+ save against melee attacks; considered suboptimal wargear choice) Daemonettes; 14 ppw, Fiends; ~17 ppw (are -1 to be hit by melee attacks, further conditional -1 to be wounded by melee attacks in 4+ unit size) 

6+ - Marauders; 9 ppw (will normally have a 5+ save due to shields) 

The obvious standouts for raw toughness are Chaos Warriors in units of 20+, followed closely by Chaos Knights, Dragon Ogres and Gors - big meaty chunks of 4+ save (only in combat for Gors) wounds. I would argue based on the save differential that Bestigors and Hellstriders (4+) are the next most efficient alongside Marauders and Slickblades (5+). Unsurprisingly, outside of Slickblades and Myrmidesh to an extent, Hedonites units tend to fare the worst in terms of defensive efficiency, with Slaves offering the toughest individual options. Symbaresh are deceptive in that their durability is contingent on them having the 5++ active, as it increases their efficiency by a big margin. 

The big question then becomes how do these units fare if you apply all those metrics together? There's multiple considerations that will come down to how you build your list, such as numerous small combat units (alternating activations are their bane) versus fewer bigger blocks (more susceptible to getting focused down) the importance of speed and the fact that not everything needs to be fast, how 'independent' the unit is, whether it might eat up your crucial Inspiring Presence, the role difference between anvils meant to soak depravity and proper hard hitters, etc. With all that in mind, I've got some fairly general and early thoughts. 

First up, units of 10 Bestigors look ideal for 135 points, especially compared to Daemonettes; they can run and charge with ways to boost their movement, they do good to great damage for their points (conditionally) and are relatively good defensively. They need to charge but they will punch above their weight even in blocks of 10 and don't require much if any support. Symbaresh are our scariest combat unit, but they absolutely do not want to be hit first; you need to handle them with care. Slickblades look better than I thought now that I've compared them to all the other options; it goes to show how stupidly good they were before, though I still think 230 might be a bit much. Dragon Ogors are an interesting alternative to Chaos Warrior blocks, being much more potent (accounting for who gets to strike) but less durable - call me crazy but I actually feel like I'd rather 6 of these over 20 Chaos Warriors as they're plenty tough enough (especially if you give them +1 save) and the key difference is they aren't completely pillow-fisted. Marauders look good in Lurid Haze, otherwise Gors do the cheap bodies thing far better - and Ungor Raiders are inarguably the superior cheap screens. Chosen are pretty scary but harder to get stuck in than Bestigors, while Chaos Knights look really juicy if you keep a Sorcerer nearby for the 'free' +1 save. Fiends still look alright but with that points hike I feel like they will only really be worthwhile if you need specialist monster hunters. Varanguard might be interesting for the 'stacked' 2+ save, and are one of the few units Synessa can really help with thanks to her infinite range commands, but I feel like you're probably better off spending either a bit more for 10 Chaos Knights or a bit less for 5 Slickblades. 

Sorry for the long post and rambling thoughts, but figured I'd share just so you don't have to crunch the numbers yourselves  I'll add more thoughts later. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Jaskier

[Enoby]

Thanks @Jaskier - really interesting write up

Does anyone have the warscroll for the spell portal? I'm wondering if that has a tech in our lists with Glutos and Syn.

[docofallplagues]

38 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Thanks @Jaskier - really interesting write up

Does anyone have the warscroll for the spell portal? I'm wondering if that has a tech in our lists with Glutos and Syn.

The umbral spell portal? If so its on the aos app

Edited July 7, 2021 by docofallplagues

[Elazar The Glorified]

Can't remember off the top of my head for certain but I don't think much has changed since that warscroll @docofallplagues

The new rules are in tbe General's Handbook. Which I think is a little cheeky as they didn't update the Malign Sorcery errata with those warscrolls like they did the battletomes... Haven't got mine to hand to check

[Enoby]

16 minutes ago, docofallplagues said:

The umbral spell portal? If so its on the aos app

 

8 minutes ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

Can't remember off the top of my head for certain but I don't think much has changed since that warscroll @docofallplagues

The new rules are in tbe General's Handbook. Which I think is a little cheeky as they didn't update the Malign Sorcery errata with those warscrolls like they did the battletomes... Haven't got mine to hand to check

Thanks - hopefully the app version is the same as/similar to the new GHB version

If so, Slothful Stupor or Crippling Famishment could be very nasty directed through them.

[Feorag]

Current WIP on slaanesh Daemon prince.

[LeonBox]

1 hour ago, Feorag said:

Current WIP on slaanesh Daemon prince.

That's awesome! What's the base model? 

[docofallplagues]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

hopefully the app version is the same as/similar to the new GHB version

It totally slipped my mind that GHB changed a bunch of endless spells, sorry! 

[Benkei]

12 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

That's awesome! What's the base model? 

That's Yndrasta I'd say

Edited July 7, 2021 by Benkei

[Feorag]

12 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

That's awesome! What's the base model? 

It's Yndrasta from the Dominion box I had a spare from a swap.

 

[Enoby]

Huh, had a weird glitch saying "HERO replied to this thread" before the site crashed, HERO being the person who created this thread. Strange glitch

26 minutes ago, docofallplagues said:

It totally slipped my mind that GHB changed a bunch of endless spells, sorry! 

No problem! I've heard they're very similar but can't find the exact wording, and I need to self isolate so can't pick up the GHB