AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Nasrod]

Just now, Enoby said:

Good question... I *think* it might do now, however I'm almost certain we'll see a change in the wording of the warscroll so it ceases to do so. I think faction warscrolls are all getting a rework in the FAQ

However, I could be totally wrong here! There may be a clause saying endless spells can't move twice in the same turn

Likely, yeah. Either way, on fringe cases like this I would lean toward the ruling that favors my opponent. It would be a powerful trick but propping your strategy up on it and having it taken away right now would be like falling out of a building, getting kicked while you were down, and thinking you could crawl away to safety only to fall down an open manhole. 

[AmonRa]

Haven't gotten past the stage of grief called Anger but I'm trying to see what, if anything, can be done list building wise.

Its clear we have to lean heavy into summoning so depravity generation is the foremost consideration. What lists has anyone come up with to meet this goal?

[Enoby]

27 minutes ago, AmonRa said:

Haven't gotten past the stage of grief called Anger but I'm trying to see what, if anything, can be done list building wise.

Its clear we have to lean heavy into summoning so depravity generation is the foremost consideration. What lists has anyone come up with to meet this goal?

I'm not sure if summon heavy will be the way to go - imo, I think it'd be a bit of a trap because you'd start with even less in the way of immediately useful stuff on the board, and we need all the points we can get.

I'd have to test it out, but I remember going summoning heavy for a laugh in Syll'Esske's old host when it was super broken and while I did get 3 keepers a turn, my starting board made it difficult to make an initial move. 

I'd recommend treating depravity like a bonus - try get it through gameplay decisions but don't build a list around it as it's quite a slow mechanic.

That said, archers are probably best for quick depravity gains. 

[dicebod]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

That said, archers are probably best for quick depravity gains. 

Don't forget too that a couple of cheap depravity engines got off relatively lightly in the points changes, mainly the Infernal Enrapturess and the Dread Pageant. Both are cheap and have shooting that's just as good as it needs to be to get off a depravity here and there, and in the case of the DP they have pretty good melee output and wound density.

[Selpharia]

I’m coming round on the Enrapturess, especially in lists with heavy Myrm/Sym battleline 

[Jaskier]

I've come up with a few lists so far, but this is the one I've settled on for now; 

Lurid Haze Invaders

Archaon w/ Born of Damnation

Dexcessa

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (General) w/ Feverish Anticipation & Oil of Exultation

Chaos Sorcerer Lord w/ Dark Delusions & Rod of Misrule 

3x5 Hellstriders w/ whips

2x9 Untamed Beasts

Comes out to 1995 points. What I can't decide on is whether to get two sub-10 wound heroes to unlock a Warlord core battalion to fit a Rod in and play Lurid Haze, skip the Rod and run Be'lakor instead of the Karkadrak and Untamed Beasts to run a proper three titans list, or just play regular Invaders and get both the Rod and Glory Hog. This list goes with the first option, as per the rules you pick battalions before you pick enhancements, so the Karkadrak still counts as having less than 10 wounds for that battalion. The idea is the Karky chucks the Oil into the Fane for a permanent +1 to-hit, Archaon swallows anything he touches, Dexcessa deploys last to harass the opponents' weak flank and start powering up while the opponent is forced to deal with Archaon and all the other stuff that pushes forward (especially now that deploying on an objective means you capture it before your first move.) 

Lurid Haze is extremely relevant in this list because it has three ways to get +1 save - the two commands and Mystic Shield - which combos especially well with Dexcessa's free command each *turn* (she gets a free one in both turns of each round!) and the bonus CP from Archaon and the Rod. The Hellstriders and Untamed Beasts provide the screens and bodies; though I lack Blissbarbs, the new Arcane Bolt and the Beasts' minor shooting can still ping a few Depravity points here and there. This list is designed to be extremely fast and thus reactive, hence the 9 drops to try and play for second turn (as whoever finishes deploying first must go first) but it has the speed to hit hard on turn one if need be. 2+ re-rolling Archaon, 2+ Karkadrak, and 3+ with -1 to be hit Dexcessa each and every combat phase is extremely achievable and leaves plenty of CP for other command abilities to be used. 

If points weren't so restrictive, there'd absolutely be Blissbarbs, a Keeper and the Masque in there. It's just hard finding good fighty generic heroes with less than 10 wounds for that Warlord battalion, but in this kind of list I wonder if 4-5 CP plus Dexcessa's two free commands each round are too much, and I'd be better off not worrying about the Rod. Lurid Haze's command is so stupidly good with Dexcessa's free command and Archaon's free CP, so I think even without ambushing it's still better than regular Invaders here. 

My gripe is the Karkadrak, even with a permanent +1 to-hit, just doesn't feel like a scary enough combat threat - which is where I'd prefer Be'lakor (who is really good with Archaon's -2 Bravery aura and the restriction on Inspiring Presence) or perhaps an Exalted Chariot, though it'd mean sacrificing some bodies, which I think is what an Archaon list wants more than anything. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Jaskier

[LeonBox]

5 hours ago, Selpharia said:

I’m coming round on the Enrapturess, especially in lists with heavy Myrm/Sym battleline 

Enrapturess is so good. Forcing 24" re-rolls on successful enemy casts is worth it by itself, and she's dambusters when coupled with fiends to give -1 to cast. 

[CarkFish]

What the actual F*CK is GW doing?!? ..... This is like the late 90's all over where they just blindly do there thing and dont consider or listen to the player base at all in any way.... Utter trash!

[Enoby]

5 hours ago, Jaskier said:

My gripe is the Karkadrak, even with a permanent +1 to-hit, just doesn't feel like a scary enough combat threat - which is where I'd prefer Be'lakor (who is really good with Archaon's -2 Bravery aura and the restriction on Inspiring Presence) or perhaps an Exalted Chariot, though it'd mean sacrificing some bodies, which I think is what an Archaon list wants more than anything. 

I like the list but I agree with this - I've used the Karkadrak Lord before, and even when he benefitted from Euphoric Killers he didn't do quite enough in combat - which, to be fair, is the story of 90% of Slaves to Darkness models Thankfully Archaon will make up for his damage, but I do think that Sigvald (if you had the points) would have been better just with Lurid Haze. It's difficult to get the points to gel. 

I think the struggle you may have is that only Dex and Archaon will be doing good damage (and more Dex from turn 2 onwards), with the Karkadrak Lord struggling against good saves but mulching hordes nicely. That said, as with most Archaon lists, mostly it just sits on his shoulders

12 hours ago, Selpharia said:

I’m coming round on the Enrapturess, especially in lists with heavy Myrm/Sym battleline 

One silver lining is that Myrmidesh and Symbaresh both didn't get increased loads; tbh, when dropping a KoS from the list (just too pricey to act as a support piece now - though I'll give them a test as a pure beatstick), you can free up some room and just have Dex as the KoS beatstick stand in (less damage initially but massive points saving).

I think, in future lists (though likely narrative focused), Myrmidesh and Symbaresh will be my battleline on choice.

 

[LeonBox]

The fall and fall of the Keeper is truly saddening to me. Maybe I've just had awful luck with them recently but since losing the Fane's re-rolls to hit I find them so unreliable, and now they're extremely expensive. I threw one against a Terrorgheist the other day with the Godseeker trait that lets them re-roll 1s to hit and wound on a charge, and I only did 9 wounds before dying to the Terrorgheist's return attacks (my opponent, who I swear has the luck of the devil, rolled like 3/5 sixes on his maw attacks to put 18 MWs on my Keeper). 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by LeonBox

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, LeonBox said:

The fall and fall of the Keeper is truly saddening to me. Maybe I've just had awful luck with them recently but since losing the Fane's re-rolls to hit I find them so unreliable, and now they're extremely expensive. I threw one against a Terrorgheist the other day with the Godseeker trait that lets them re-roll 1s to hit and wound on a charge, and I only did 9 wounds before dying to the Terrorgheist's return attacks (my opponent, who I swear has the luck of the devil, rolled like 3/5 sixes on his maw attacks to put 18 MWs on my Keeper). 

 

In the times I tested them at 340 points but with AoS 3 rules, they were pretty great with the +1 to hit from the fane/command ability and the +1 to wound hero trait.

However, at their new value, I don't see them getting much worth - their damage is okay (occasionally will spike hard), and their CA is nice, but they aren't strong enough to justify costing nearly a quarter of the army. 

It feels like someone in the rules team is still stuck two years in the past, terrified of the KoS and summoning and unable to see the present state of the game for what it is.

At some point today, I think I'll create a list of the ''''winners'''' (or more, least bad) units we have access to. While I don't see me taking part in any proper competitive play until we get a proper look at, I still have some interest in this new Path to Glory system and I really wouldn't want to start another army so I think I'll continue to use HoS when casual matched play games come about. 

My worry is we'll see some points reductions in December, but they'll be really minimal (a couple of -10s here and there), and we'll need to wait again until next summer to get to where we started.

That said, I do think a constant push from the community to the rules team to rethink the points would help - or at least wouldn't hurt. Obviously keeping it polite, but to keep it in the front of their mind - I don't want us to end up like BoC or Sylvaneth where they just get very little attention because the most vocal complaints are about the top table. 

[Yoid]

I wrote this in the points thread, but I think it got a place here too:

At this moment is clear that Slaanesh points are a placeholder waiting for the moment GW choose to really test and give the army real point costs. There were suspicions (and even confirmation from some playtesters) that this was the case even in the battletome (at least mentioned about Slaangors and Hellstriders).

Is gonna be a rough year for anyone wanting to play with his Slaaneshi toys. But im ready to pay the extra points, play my understrength army and be removed from the table on one or two turns. Im ready to move some big monsters around the table and roll some dices. Now we don't play to win, we play to party as hard as possible and go out in a big wave of depravity.

[Starfyre]

I'm quite liking the look of the Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot, when coupled with Their Finest Hour, All Out attack and Flaming Weapon. I'll be playing 1500pts I think, so at 265pts it seems a bit more palatable in this game size than a KoS and we don't tend to play with named characters in my group. 

Am I right in thinking if you get all that off it's:

Piercing Claws - 9 2+/3+/-1/2

Flensing Whip - 6 2+/3+/-1/1

Poisoned Tongue - 8 2+/3+/0/1

+1 to hit on attacks from All-Out Attack, +1 to Wound on attacks from their finest hour (and +1 save), and +1 damage to a weapon from Flaming Weapon.

Plus any additional attacks from Pungent Soulscent, it's innate mortal wound damage on the charge, or buffs from command traits or artifacts. Could get re-roll charges with Battle-Lust and get a 5+ Ward Save from Amulet of Destiny perhaps,

Wondering if something like this would be interesting at 1500 points:
 

Invaders		Warlord Battalion
1 Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot	265	General, Battle-lust, Flaming Weapon, Amulet of Destiny
1 The Contorted Epitome	255	General, Rod of Misrule, Hysterical Frenzy
1 Lord of Pain	155	General
5 Painbringers	160	Battleline
5 Painbringers	160	Battleline
5 Slickblade Seekers	230
5 Blissbarb Seekers	220
	1445

 

Plus an endless spell or a triumph to get up to 1500 because army building is hard. I figure there's a mix of speed, staying power and mortal wound output for DP generation to bring in blocks of daemonettes or the KoS. 

[Sorrow]

23 hours ago, Golub87 said:

I am sorry, but we were overpriced to begin with. I have to admit that this forced positivity is even more grating than the nerfs themselves.

GW dropped the ball hard. Was it intentional maliciousness or gross incompetence I really can't say, but it was one of the two.

A very bad thing happened. Sweeping that under the rug or adopting "wait and see" stance for the umptheenth time in GW history is not really going to help. This is not the first time this has happened and I really feel that community should stop stiffing its feelings on the matter. Expressing anger and disappointment is both healthy and cathartic, especially in communal setting.

There is a point at which looking for silver lining and insisting that everyone should see it is toxic in of itself.

I had a small suspicion that we were written for AoS 2 and that our points would increase in AoS 3.

But that Slaanesh would get the highest price increase of all factions is absolutely tragicomic.

 

[Sorrow]

@Yoid

User @Cambyses made a excellent post on nature of playing Hedonites, which I will repost.

"Really comprehensive post & I do agree on most accounts, however I do feel the need to discuss this last point a bit. Having a difficult or high skill floor faction is fine, and in fact should be expected from something like Slaanesh, but the faction should also have a high skill ceiling payoff to match, which I don't think is quite there when compared to other factions with similar levels of skill expression. I have a buddy who plays Blades of Khorne who is probably the best player in our groups has expressed similar frustrations before, where he would have to work much harder and be more meticulous with positional plays just to get the same pay-off as a easier or better faction, and while I don't think Hedonites are nearly as bad as BoK, I do get somewhat similar vibes. "

 

[Sorrow]

And lack of playtesting data does not explain our systematic disastrous points increases, see Soulblight and Lumineth.

[Enoby]

10 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

@Yoid

User @Cambyses made a excellent post on nature of playing Hedonites, which I will repost.

"Really comprehensive post & I do agree on most accounts, however I do feel the need to discuss this last point a bit. Having a difficult or high skill floor faction is fine, and in fact should be expected from something like Slaanesh, but the faction should also have a high skill ceiling payoff to match, which I don't think is quite there when compared to other factions with similar levels of skill expression. I have a buddy who plays Blades of Khorne who is probably the best player in our groups has expressed similar frustrations before, where he would have to work much harder and be more meticulous with positional plays just to get the same pay-off as a easier or better faction, and while I don't think Hedonites are nearly as bad as BoK, I do get somewhat similar vibes. "

 

I agree with this, though the most unfortunate thing - and the thing that disappoints me the most - is that I think we would have had that high skill ceiling if we kept our original points with the new rules.

All the stuff I wrote about our benefits in AoS 3 was true, and remains true. We do benefit from AoS 3 a lot and a lot of it makes up for our lack of synergy in book, imo. 

What's so frustrating was that these benefits have been neutered because of these massive increases. 

We were so close to being a fantastic finesse army with a large toolbox which benefitted from our summoning (improved by MSU), hero-monsters, addition to our spell lore, addition to our artifacts, smaller board sizes. 

That's what hurts - in my opinion, we were close to having the best era of Slaanesh in AoS. But then the points happened... 

[Sorrow]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

I agree with this, though the most unfortunate thing - and the thing that disappoints me the most - is that I think we would have had that high skill ceiling if we kept our original points with the new rules.

All the stuff I wrote about our benefits in AoS 3 was true, and remains true. We do benefit from AoS 3 a lot and a lot of it makes up for our lack of synergy in book, imo. 

What's so frustrating was that these benefits have been neutered because of these massive increases. 

We were so close to being a fantastic finesse army with a large toolbox which benefitted from our summoning (improved by MSU), hero-monsters, addition to our spell lore, addition to our artifacts, smaller board sizes. 

That's what hurts - in my opinion, we were close to having the best era of Slaanesh in AoS. But then the points happened... 

The tragedy is that this beautiful Slaaneshi release could have brought in a lot of new players to the fold. In the long run, it would mean everything, from the possible new Hedonite releases to Emperor Children codex in WH40K.

A lot of people who wanted to jump in our faction when the second release came were scared of by rules and now this points increase is a final nail in the coffin.  Many of those potential new Slaanesh players are going to other factions, Soulblight and Lumineth are a popular choices it appears.

So if GW decides that this Hedonite release was not worth it financially, that is going to have very negative consequences for entire Slaaneshi range across entire GW franchise in the future.

[Enoby]

25 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

The tragedy is that this beautiful Slaaneshi release could have brought in a lot of new players to the fold. In the long run, it would mean everything, from the possible new Hedonite releases to Emperor Children codex in WH40K.

A lot of people who wanted to jump in our faction when the second release came were scared of by rules and now this points increase is a final nail in the coffin.  Many of those potential new Slaanesh players are going to other factions, Soulblight and Lumineth are a popular choices it appears.

So if GW decides that this Hedonite release was not worth it financially, that is going to have very negative consequences for entire Slaaneshi range across entire GW franchise in the future.

Yeah, you're very correct to point it out. 

I have no clue how popular this Slaanesh release was. I saw a lot of it on social media when it came out and our LE book sold out in a few hours (compared to days for Lumineth). Sigvald also sold out, which at the time was unusual for AOS release. They were also the bestseller on Wayland Games, which isn't always the case for new AoS releases.

On the other hand, I saw so many people say "I would have got Slaanesh, but then I saw Lumineth/SBGL" - the Slaanesh models didn't have their time in the sun. Their hype window did not cover their buy window, and before they could be bought a load of new stuff game out and took the spotlight off them. Also, I have heard a report from one game shop that, in their store, they sold really poorly and they blamed the rules. Of course, that's just one store - may have been that there were no Slaanesh players in the area. 

So I really don't know how well they did. I think we are more popular than before - I can't prove it, but that'd be my guess. However, we are nowhere near as popular as we could have been due to factors totally within GW's control. I get that Covid got in the way, but if they had delayed further model reveals until after the release, given us proper rules previews, and pointed us better then we could have had an incredibly popular release.

If I were to guess now, I'd say we might see a new single model or so a few years in the future, but I think we missed our best chance to shine.   

[Overread]

After 2 massive updates and releases a few models in the next few years is exactly what I'd expect for Slaanesh even if they were top dog right now. Slaanesh for AoS is very much going to enter the drip-fed system now and very rightly. There's armies like Fyreslayers that need big additions or Skaven who need a nice big range update .

 

The next BIG Slaanesh release I would expect to be for 40K, and then more focused on the Marine side not the demon side; with things like noise marines and the like. 

 

 

 

[Sorrow]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, you're very correct to point it out. 

I have no clue how popular this Slaanesh release was. I saw a lot of it on social media when it came out and our LE book sold out in a few hours (compared to days for Lumineth). Sigvald also sold out, which at the time was unusual for AOS release. They were also the bestseller on Wayland Games, which isn't always the case for new AoS releases.

On the other hand, I saw so many people say "I would have got Slaanesh, but then I saw Lumineth/SBGL" - the Slaanesh models didn't have their time in the sun. Their hype window did not cover their buy window, and before they could be bought a load of new stuff game out and took the spotlight off them. Also, I have heard a report from one game shop that, in their store, they sold really poorly and they blamed the rules. Of course, that's just one store - may have been that there were no Slaanesh players in the area. 

So I really don't know how well they did. I think we are more popular than before - I can't prove it, but that'd be my guess. However, we are nowhere near as popular as we could have been due to factors totally within GW's control. I get that Covid got in the way, but if they had delayed further model reveals until after the release, given us proper rules previews, and pointed us better then we could have had an incredibly popular release.

If I were to guess now, I'd say we might see a new single model or so a few years in the future, but I think we missed our best chance to shine.   

I spoke with a owner of two game shops, he said the same thing, that they sold very poorly and immediately blamed the rules. He is in regular contact with a few other shops across Europe and they really do not paint a pretty picture of Hedonite sales according to him. Of course, it could be that these shops just have no Slaaneshi players in the area, as you already said.

Covid is hollow excuse, take a look at Soulblight and Lumineth.

 

[Enoby]

42 minutes ago, Sorrow said:

I spoke with a owner of two game shops, he said the same thing, that they sold very poorly and immediately blamed the rules. He is in regular contact with a few other shops across Europe and they really do not paint a pretty picture of Hedonite sales according to him. Of course, it could be that these shops just have no Slaaneshi players in the area, as you already said.

Covid is hollow excuse, take a look at Soulblight and Lumineth.

 

Yeah, I can imagine in game shops especially they'd have sold poorly as usually those shops cater to people who want to play rather than just collect. While @Overread is correct that we won't see anything for Slaanesh  in AoS regardless of sales, it is quite sad that Slaanesh's big chance was likely squandered by GW messing some stuff up.

I do think the massive negative hype wouldn't have happened if the leak hadn't have happened. If they'd have made an effort to show the good rules throughout the week then the bad wouldn't have stuck out as much. That said, I do think some larger names in the community overreacted (e.g. Dark Artisan saying how bad they are despite playing a rubbish list and not playing very well) and that added into this negative hype. 

It was a bit of a perfect storm unfortunately - it did feel like the Slaanesh release was set out to be great by the look of the models, and then GW didn't put as much effort into the other parts of the release.

On the other hand, we do have a massive range, so whenever one of us can infiltrate Warhammer World and write our own battletome, we'll be golden

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Enoby

[Benkei]

16 hours ago, Jaskier said:

This list is designed to be extremely fast and thus reactive, hence the 9 drops to try and play for second turn (as whoever finishes deploying first must go first) but it has the speed 

It seems whoever finishes deploying first takes Priority, choosing who goes first and who goes second 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Benkei

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Benkei said:

It seem whoever finishes deploying first takes Priority, choosing who goes first and who goes second 

This exactly, in the Battlepack from the GHB whoever finishes deploying first gains priority, having Priority is having the choice/ the same as winning the roll off. 

 

After a bit of time spend on my other factions I've finally spent some time on my HoS, and this is how far I've got so far. Obviously its all theoretical so it might require some scaling to get it on the board and properly functional.

Infernal Enrapturess	140	1	140
Infernal Enrapturess	140	1	140
Infernal Enrapturess	140	1	140
Syll'Esske, The Vengful Allegiance	210	1	210
Chaos Sorcerer Lord	115	1	115
11 Blissbarb Archers	180	1	180
11 Blissbarb Archers	180	1	180
11 Blissbarb Archers	180	1	180
5 Chaos Knights	170	1	170
5 Slickblade Seekers	230	1	230

The total at the moment is 1685, I would intend to take burning head, and probably Cogs and see where I can get from there. Between CP, spells and abilities the Chaos Knights are a stall piece that will walk around at a 3+ rr and a 5+ ward when I need them to be, and can be relatively decent as Behemoth hunters now with their lances at 3+/3+/-2/2 dmg on the charge with all out attack, and rr hit and wounds with Daemonic Power. Mostly it will be about surging forward, and then running back until I amass the DP to start dumping daemonettes on the board. 

Invaders is filthy for CP generation, the list starts with 1 each for each general, 2+ from rod of misrule, and potentially another on a 4+ from Heroic Leadership. I'm considering giving the Sorcerer Lord Arcane tome to cast Cogs turn 1, and still be able to mystic shield, and/or daemonic power.

Since the fane and Heroic recovery happen at the start of the Hero phase you can take the MW and Heal it for free right away on your Bravery 10 Enrapturess. This list would be looking to gain at least 7 DP in my active turns. The Key is making sure you generate the DP each turn to replenish your loses as the battle goes on and keep in mind the sorts of models/units you will need to score your remaining poor of battle tactics. This list will probably end up a Battle Regiment and an Entourage for around 4/5 drops. 

[Selpharia]

For a bit more perspective on Slaanesh’s current predicament, I went back and read the Goonhammer article on the 9e 40k points increase, and found a modicum of solace there. One of the consensus “biggest losers” during that period: Drukhari, who, less than a year later, were storming the top tables and crushing all in their path. It feels gross now, especially when everyone wants to be hype for 3.0, but the tides will change. And when they do, and we’re used to eking out victory by talon and nail, we will be as Slaanesh, unfettered and ready to drown the world in depravity.