AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Feorag]

Just now, CeleFAZE said:

I've taken some time to process and collect my thoughts on this. There's a forlorn hope that the survey came after this was finalized for printing, and too late for our feedback to be incorporated. I won't hold my breath for an FAQ update, but maybe next year's points won't be so oppressive.

For now things are looking kind of dark, but I'm committed to making a good show of it at tournaments, and I'll report back on how things go. A handicap like this will force me to become a better player, and every victory I can scrape out will be that much sweeter for sure.

I don't blame any of you who decide to bow out of the game for now, or indefinitely. However, as a community we've persevered in the face of overwhelming nerfs, and once even the threat of potentially being removed from the game entirely. We'll get through this, as we always have.

My first army is Beasts of Chaos and I have been playing them since the late 90's and Slaanesh and STD came in 6th edition. 

I personally will be sticking it out I have some ideas.

[Nasrod]

1 minute ago, CeleFAZE said:

I've taken some time to process and collect my thoughts on this. There's a forlorn hope that the survey came after this was finalized for printing, and too late for our feedback to be incorporated. I won't hold my breath for an FAQ update, but maybe next year's points won't be so oppressive.

For now things are looking kind of dark, but I'm committed to making a good show of it at tournaments, and I'll report back on how things go. A handicap like this will force me to become a better player, and every victory I can scrape out will be that much sweeter for sure.

I don't blame any of you who decide to bow out of the game for now, or indefinitely. However, as a community we've persevered in the face of overwhelming nerfs, and once even the threat of potentially being removed from the game entirely. We'll get through this, as we always have.

Bargaining, already? I'm still hung up on Anger, myself. Impressive. 

[Enoby]

I was pretty brief before but this is just... well, incredibly disappointing. 

We tried our best with the survey, the entire vocal AoS community was confused by Slaanesh's points, we didn't appear in the top places at tournaments. There was no reason to increase points - no reason from the community, no reason from competitive play, no weird upside down narrative reason either. There was no reason for Slaanesh to get the increases it did. Absolutely nothing. 

And yet, we're sitting on one of the biggest points increases of the GHB. We were already overcosted and yet we were increased more than the meta leaders. 

I've always tried to be positive - I've tried to and enjoyed delving into the Slaanesh boosts in AoS 3. I was really genuinely excited to try us in this edition because I think we have some nice rules interactions. If we stayed at the same points I would have been incredibly excited.  

At the moment, I'm just very confused. Despite outcry from the community and more concrete proof from tournaments, someone in the rules team has chosen to handicap us. 

It feels either incompetent or malicious. I wouldn't want to badmouth the rules team because I do think they work hard and have passion for their job, but I have absolutely no clue how someone who knew anything about that the state of the game would have thought these changes were a good idea when compared to other changes. 

I'm just at a loss for words really. 

I've played Slaanesh for about four years now, including before we had allegiance abilities at all. I've loved them, especially for their lore but also their amazing models. 

This is probably the worst I've felt about them. Not because they're weak, but because it feels like we have not been listened to - like the rules team didn't care enough to balance us properly 

I'm going to cool off on this, it's just so disheartening

[Feorag]

So to not be too down.

Idea for a list lots of ranged wounding and a lot of mortal wound generation.

Probably invaders and it's a 2 drop list unless allies can't go in battalions then it's 3

Thoughts?

[Selpharia]

I don’t expect these prices to stand very long, but it looks like a pretty transparent, ham handed effort to push older/lower performing mortals. I wonder if there was an algorithmic look at: can this unit be summoned? that pinged a bunch of our units really hard. 

[docofallplagues]

The ideas I've had for conversions and the armies I wanted to build with the new models just all seems so fruitless in the face of enormous cost to bringing them... not 100% sure ill even bother buying any more hedonites for a while, might be throwing the towel in too soon but it's just a little disheartening 

[Rawenwing]

Tonight I got murdered not once, but twice. Tzeentch first, slaanesh next. I think I can live with tzeentch being increased in points (even though I still don’t get why Kairos always costs more than lord kroak) but with slaanesh... I don’t know how to feel. I was esitant to start the faction cause I read and read negative comments about the points and whatnot, but the twins came out so much hype right? Well Synessa sucks, okay I can live with that it’s not the end of the world so I planned an entire buying schedule just for her because it was the spark that ignited my interior slaanesh...I was hoping for the entire week that our points remained untouched and then this...I feel like I had fiercely wasted my money without even having an actual game with slaanesh...

[Nagashfan]

OOF 

[docofallplagues]

Just seen some other points changes and seeing a KoS 40 points more expensive than skarbrand is so weird. Like I know skarbrand isn't exactly meta or BoK in general but still, seems all the daemons for HoS are so overcosted for what they do now

[Nasrod]

17 minutes ago, Rawenwing said:

Tonight I got murdered not once, but twice. Tzeentch first, slaanesh next. I think I can live with tzeentch being increased in points (even though I still don’t get why Kairos always costs more than lord kroak) but with slaanesh... I don’t know how to feel. I was esitant to start the faction cause I read and read negative comments about the points and whatnot, but the twins came out so much hype right? Well Synessa sucks, okay I can live with that it’s not the end of the world so I planned an entire buying schedule just for her because it was the spark that ignited my interior slaanesh...I was hoping for the entire week that our points remained untouched and then this...I feel like I had fiercely wasted my money without even having an actual game with slaanesh...

I just bought a SC, Broken Realms Box, and a Creature Caster Queen of Malifica I have spent about 45 hours on now. 

I know painfully well what you are going through atm...

[Selpharia]

There’s always 40k, I guess

[Nagashfan]

I don’t even want to finish painting my slickblades or assemble the twins…. Maybe slaanesh wilL be fun in total war 3 that’s the only place I’ll play them now yeeeesh

[TheArborealWalrus]

Alright, let me start this by saying that I don't think Slaanesh is dead. We are still good at being where we need to be, when we need to be there and hellstriders went down. That does leave the infantry in a much worse place however. It's not good now, but that means we have to play to our strengths. I've played BoC and Khorne, being on the bottom can still be fun (right thread for that turn of phrase), but taking a break is fair too. There is 1 major strength to the army though ... summoning.

I hate having to summon. I don't like fighting it, and I like using it even less. We now have actually no choice but to focus on summoning with the points hike. This saddens me greatly and brings me to my next point ...

I had been planning on sticking with slaanesh until I re-paint my stormcast, but the style we're being pushed to is just something I don't really want to play. I'm not selling them or anything drastic, they shall just wait and bide their time. Just as Archaon is in the plot. I'll try to post pictures as I continue my snake cult, so look forward to that.

Hope everyone's day improves after the bad news. Take slaanesh's advice, have an ice cream cone or something and sit on the news. You might be able to make something of it yet. After all, Slaanesh will break free. *maniacally laughs into the shadows* 

Good luck fellows.

[docofallplagues]

6 minutes ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

I hate having to summon. I don't like fighting it, and I like using it even less

I think that's my main issue. I adore the new mortals and want nothing more than an army of slickblades, blissbards and twinsouls, but they're costed as if I own 60 daemonettes that I can flop on the table each turn which I don't.

[Selpharia]

Oh, I’m still going to assemble my twins. They’re actually quite nice. I do think we’re basically forced into a LoP general as the only way to get any kind of value from our battleline.

With a leading coterie of Siggy, LoP, Dex and a Shardspeaker/Syn, then two to three Myrmidesh or Symbaresh, the increases aren’t awful. The Keeper’s pricing is a crime, and pushes them entirely out of contention. 

It’s not my favorite thing, and it’s not going to burn down any tournaments, but it’ll function.

[Enoby]

So, to do something proactive, I'm going to collate the negative comments (no ID) and send them off to GW. Probably nothing will happen, but we may as well give it a go. I'll also collect the survey up again and resend it. 

And if nothing happens, it's quite funny reading some of these:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OyCF9WxEHxH1L1cgqwmPM5mObV4-pkKnjdEv5RR4h_k/edit?usp=sharing

My personal fave for how to the point it is 

[Jaskier]

Hellstriders are great now, that cut for them was minor (a bit bigger if they have whips like mine) but given the increases to everything else, they stand out as our best in-book Battleline now. One unit of Blissbarbs is still mandatory, they only got a minor increase after all. Myrmidesh got the smallest increase and thus are still decent, Symbaresh a bit less so. Daemonettes are our worst Battleline (aside from chariots) now no question, you would never run them over Hellstriders or Blissbarbs. 

For Slaves Battleline for us, Chaos Warriors being 10 for 200 isn't the worst thing in the world if you pair them up with a Sorcerer Lord, but otherwise being forced to run 20 to get value out of the re-rolls sucks. Marauders coming in minimum 10 is actually a godsend, as they're now capped at 30 and slightly more expensive but give us super cheap screens and hordes - it's not like we want to use reinforcement points anywhere else. Very happy with that as they give us exactly what we want, which is cheap filler Battleline that can also be buffed out to big scary hordes - something Daemonettes don't do nearly as efficiently. 

Non-battleline units; Slickblades got a big increase and so aren't obviously our best unit anymore, meaning Hellstriders compare a bit more favourably to them now, but they're still decent. Seekers got a nice cut. Fiends are now in an odd spot as you still want 6 but 6 isn't ideal with the coherency rules - it's not so bad as you can do a 4 frontage, and once you lose a model you stop worrying about coherency as much. Their main competitor in Slickblades went up more than they did, and Fiends synergise better with Dexcessa (but not Glutos) so they're still decent. Blissbarb Seekers got a bigger increase than Slickblades which...I don't really understand, but at least the gap between them and foot Blissbarbs is more sensible now. I think if you plan around Dexcessa, Fiends are the biggest 'winners', whereas Glutos lists will prefer Slickblades- the loss of 6" pile-ins hurts them more than anything else really. 

Small heroes...thankfully a lot of these didn't change much. Viceleaders and the Masque are still good and great respectively. The Epitome's increase is absurd, especially as it's still in a worse spot than it was under the old book - I think it's still probably ok, but this one hurts a lot. The chariot heralds only went up a teensy bit which is nice as I think the MSU edition favours them a lot with their bubble mortal wounds, and the Enrapturess is still a fine choice but a better summon. The Lord of Pain is more important than ever now that our Mortal Hedonites are unquestionably the best way to fill out our Battleline (in the book) and the Shardspeaker is happy despite the nerf to her save bonus. Syll'Esske is sitting really darned pretty where they are, especially with how big Glutos' increase was - expect to see more of these with how the book is arguably favouring mortals moreso than before. Sigvald is still a great anti-meta choice. 

Now for the big heroes! Glutos' increase honestly isn't a big surprise; even though he didn't get buffed much in 3.0, he was already borderline underpriced at his old cost, with 3.0 making him even tankier and thus more of a presence. He's still good, but not auto-take good, and that's fine. The real problem are Keepers and Shalaxi, who not only got the biggest increases of anything, but in the formers' case now cost exactly as much as a Lord of Change! This is stupid and makes zero sense. Bloodthirsters are over 100 points cheaper. Great Unclean Ones are over 50 points cheaper. Keepers got huge buffs with the 3.0 changes, to a point where they were also looking like auto-includes at their old cost, but there is no reason for them to cost as much as a Lord of Change now, none whatsoever. 

The Twins' value, specifically Dexcessa's, jumped up because they didn't get touched. I guess the problem here was I'd have always taken a Keeper in 3.0 over Dexcessa at the old points, so now with the Keeper getting slapped Dexcessa is now inarguably our best combat monster. Synessa is still questionable, but she importantly fills out a "small leader" slot for certain core battalions, one of which requires two such heroes to get that critical extra enhancement - food for thought. Our Endless Spells going up so much shouldn't be a shock to anyone, as with the new predatory rules Wheels would have been utterly stupid Depravity generators at their old cost. 

As for other Slaves stuff, the heroes didn't change much at all which is nice; Archaon got a minor increase (that 950 "leak" was wrong) same with Soul Grinders, so hooray for that (but Daemonsteel is dead, so meh.) Archaon lists are looking better than ever for us, especially now that Marauders come in 10s and solve the low bodies issue, with battalions no longer eating up points either.

As for where to go for my lists, Dexcessa is gonna be integral to all my tournament lists from now on, that much I can say. One Keeper might still make it in...maybe; summoning Daemonettes is usually still better, so I might have to run a Keeper in my list just to be safe, and it's getting the 5++ artifact each time. Blissbarbs and Hellstriders will still form the core of my list, though Marauders are also looking like a strong option now (to get cheap bodies, I've little interest in them as a horde.) After that, I'm not so sure anymore. The two lists I had written up for 3.0 so far, one Invaders and one Lurid Haze, increased by 340 and 250 respectively, and honestly that makes some sense as the stuff I was using I'd identified as being obviously too good for their points or at least super improved in 3.0.

Should we have had as big of an increase as we did? No. However, we were looking like a top tier army if our points didn't change, so I guess it was to be expected. I think we're still in roughly the same spot as we were before, we're still looking like a strong army in capable hands, but building lists without leaning on Slaves did get harder - and leaning on Slaves is actually easier than ever thanks to the Marauder change, though the Hellstriders cut does make them very attractive now. Overall, I'm disappointed like everyone else but it could have been worse. Keepers at 340 with the new rules probably would have been too good, but Keepers at 420 is mind-boggling. Oh well. 

[Selpharia]

I’m pondering going hard in on min units of Seekers. They combine with enough board coverage to leave the enemy choked in their deployment zone, and have the speed to pip over and minimize the counterattack, generating some depravity on the way in. Stack with the godseekers special depravity rule, and there’s something there perhaps. I can’t imagine it’s be a terribly enjoyable experience for the archers we’re likely to see loads of. Hell can only be unleashed once, after all

Edited June 18, 2021 by Selpharia

[AngryPanda]

Ok....I've taken a moment to step away from my computer and breath, and I have to say that after taking a very brisk walk I feel my head has cleared up considerably and I am able to give a more laxed analysis of our situation. I've bolded some of the main points for reference, and to highlight the takeaways I find most important. 

I haven't seen all the rumored point changes, mostly because they are hard to find. The biggest offender I've heard, besides Slaanesh receiving the unwarranted point increases, is the lack of changes for Lumanith; supposedly the "problem" units remained relatively the same. I have not seen this, rather I've heard this from the other rumor boards on TGA, so take this with a pretty big grain of salt. This tells me that there is either obvious favoritism at GW, that there is a disconnect between the community and the gamers, or a bit of both. In either case, there have been some changes to other armies that have impacted their playstyles as well (Orruks 'Ardboyz are now 120 pts for 5 which has more than doubled their price; Tzeentch was also apparently nuked with massive point increases across the board). This also doesn't include the newly introduces reinforcement rules, which will also limit list building across multiple other armies, and has left us relatively untouched. That's not to say that we weren't hurt, but rather it's somewhat comforting to know that other armies have also felt the punch to points that this edition was rumored to bring. 

Which leads me into one of my main conclusions: we're not the only one's receiving these point increases. We don't know for certain how much the points are going to increase across the entirety of the game until the core book is released or there are confirmed leaks. In fact, we might actually be relatively alright compared to other armies who are very likely going to get some decent increases as well. For example, the beautifully sculpted yet initially problematic painbringers only went up 10 points, whereas the twinsouls (with a 2 inch reach, I'll get to this soon) went up only 15. In an edition where we are sure to see more monsters, Fiends went up by 20 to 200, from 180, a decent amount. Yet, in an edition where heroes monsters have become far more useful, they may serve a far more valuable role as monster/hero hunters with their D6 damage tails, and therefore the point increase may be relatively humble. 

Which leads into the second position that I wish to address: let's assume the hypothetical that the worst will occur, that all the other armies in the game have relatively low point increases and we were in the minority to receive an above average points bump. Well, I have good news, and it is that fellow community members such as @Enoby and other have pointed out some fantastic highlights for us that have already been confirmed: the core rules for AoS 3.0 seems to be tailored towards our type of playstyle. I won't list out the entirety of the main analysis', but if you go back a few pages from this page you'll see some excellent rundowns on how this edition benefits our unique strategy centered around generating depravity and taking MSU units, which equates also equates to reinforcement limitations not applying much to us.

To highlight some major changes that benefit us, this edition has definitely moved towards MSU-based lists via the introduction of reinforcement rules and higher point costs. This is going to result in generating depravity being easier than ever, especially with the changes to how endless spells work. Though the Wheels of Excruciation have doubled in points, being able to control them is going to make them an efficient and relatively reliable MW/DP generator; you can also run them over our own troops while they're in combat without causing any damage to ourselves! This also means that summoning is going to be much more impactful. Smaller games with smaller boards and multiple MSU units equates to large units of summoned daemonettes, seekers, or fiends being far more dangerous. 

In my opinion, 160 points for painbringers is a steal in an edition that saw broad increases to points across  all the armies in the game. These guys are practically unkillable without high rend or MWs, and with the addition of a +1 save CP ability and the changes to mystic shield, getting them to a +3 rerollable is going to be very easy. However, this doesn't include the best part: the changes to unit coherency have made it very difficult or impossible for units with 1 inch reach weapons to attack with all their models. This means that painbringers, while they will only be able to attack with the first 5 or 6 units in the front, will be able to hold off massive hordes of less-valuable infantry without getting swarmed like in the previous edition. Mixed with Glutos' -1 hit aura and the emerald swarm endless spell (which you can also control and put directly behind these guys for those sweet revives), these guys are going to hold the line and be able to actually do a good amount of damage in return. I plan to run these guys next to Glutos, an emerald swarm, and a Lord of Pain for reroll to hits if I decide to get back into the game.

Twinsouls are going to be kickass. The two inch reach is now going to be very important, and they'll be very unique compared to other elite units that only have a 1" inch reach. A unit of ten running in front of a shardspeaker (which saw no changes to the points, making them relatively cheap compared to other casters in the game), will have 30 attacks that are hitting on +3 (with command abilities), rerolling all failed hits, and wounding on +2 from the Shardspeaker's ability.

I'm not saying that I agree with the point increases, and I am most certainly on the same boat with everyone here. I feel your pain because I feel the pain as well; something very fitting as a follower of Slaanesh. What I am simply saying, as one fellow player to another in the most reassuring and friendliest means I can give, is that instead of bringing up arms hastily, we should simply sit back and observe, then make conclusions when all the smoke has cleared via the massive pile of rumors that will be compiling over the next couple of weeks and the edition has had time to settle in. We, especially myself, had consistently jumped to conclusions many, many times since our initial reveal back in November. Some were warranted (Fiendbloods and Shalaxi Helbane such harder now), while others were too hasty (twinsouls can actually deal a lot of damage despite not having rend). 

 

Under the hidden content tabs are two list I've concocted from the updated points and the new rules; I hope this sheds some light on two ways we can potentially play or build lists. You guys are much better then me at building lists, as I mostly field units I like the look of in terms of sculpt; there are probably far more optimal ways to play the army and these lists are just for fun. I'm unsure how much the emerald swarm will cost, however if it increases too much then I will replace the unit of slickblades with something else, most likely a unit of fiends. 

Spoiler

Slaanesh List #1

Lurid Haze- 3 cp a turn, 4 once per battle
1990/2000

Warlord Battalion
- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact

Heroes:

Glutos- 475
- Spell: Judgement of Excess

Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Oil of Exultation
- Spell: Dark Delusions

Lord of Pain- 155
General #2
Command Trait: Feverish Anticipation
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
Triumph: Inspired

Batteline:
Twinsouls x 5- 185
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 180
Painbringers x 10- 320
Daemonettes x 10 - 140

Linebreakers-
Slickblades x 5- 235


Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (50)
Wheels of Excruciation (100)

Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess

 

Spoiler

Slaanesh List #2

Invaders- 3 cp a turn (Rod, General, Beginning of Turn) 4 first round (Warlord Battalion)
1990/2000

Warlord Battalion
- Extra Enchantment: additional artifact

Heroes:

Glutos- 475
- Spell: Judgement of Excess

Shardspeaker- 150
General #1
Artifact: Rod of Misrule
- Spell: Dark Delusions

Lord of Pain- 155
General #2
Command Trait: Glory Hog
Artifact: Vial of Manticore Venom
Triumph: Inspired 

Batteline:
Twinsouls x 5- 185
Blissbarb Archers x 10- 180
Painbringers x 10- 320
Daemonettes x 10- 140


Linebreakers-
Slickblades- 235


Endless Spells:
Emerald Swarm (50)
Wheels of Excruciation (100)

Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Enrapturess

As I mentioned, I won't play until a month into the edition, to give myself a better outlook on where the meta stands after all the smoke and debris clears after the core rules drop. In the meantime, I'm going to keep my head down and an eye on the other armies in the game, seeing how much they increase in points and what other important changes may happen as well. If it seems like we got very end of the stick, all hope isn't lost. I have a feeling there will still be ways to have fun with the army, just not at a super competitive level. 

 

 

[Carnith]

28 minutes ago, Enoby said:

So, to do something proactive, I'm going to collate the negative comments (no ID) and send them off to GW. Probably nothing will happen, but we may as well give it a go. I'll also collect the survey up again and resend it. 

And if nothing happens, it's quite funny reading some of these:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OyCF9WxEHxH1L1cgqwmPM5mObV4-pkKnjdEv5RR4h_k/edit?usp=sharing

My personal fave for how to the point it is 

A shame I don't have a quote in there, but I don't think Joker Face and "What a joke" are good quotes. 

As I stated on twitter, Slaanesh did not deserve this as we were already hurting. It is clear we are not favored by designers and honestly, it feels like being in an abusive relationship with GW to keep playing Slaanesh. 

My desire to buy new models is gone, and I'm honestly planning on returning unopened boxes. This is because I could never field them all anyways, and clearly GW thinks I'm going to summon in 1000 extra points. This isn't what I wanted in Slaanesh, nor do I think anyone else wants for Slaanesh either. 

Simply put.

[Jaskier]

Apparently Slaves Battleline (i.e. Warriors) doesn't count as Battleline if taken in other armies? Sounds like marked stuff is here to stay but can't be used to cheap out on Battleline. Drat! Saves me buying and painting Marauders I guess, and at least my Archaon lists will endure (just with Hellstriders instead.) 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jaskier

[AngryPanda]

Ok, so I just took a look at the point changes on reddit (everything is on there, including the endless spell changes). 

Out of all the armies, we have received the largest increase in points, with a whopping +655 or more across our army roster. What the hell. 

Everything above I hold my word to, but I'm definitely going to be watching AoS 3.0 at least a month after its release to observe people's experiences with the army; suffice to say I am speechless again. I can't imagine how Goonhammer, or Honest Wargamer are going to react. 

[TimeToWaste85]

So…I planned to run Dex, Siggy, Hellstriders (when I heard we couldn’t take Warriors as battleline anymore), a Keeper, maybe Shalaxi, Slickblades and a mirror and/or wheels. No wheels, no Shalaxi, and I can still do all that with two units of Slickblades. Doable. But I think I still have changes to make. 
 

don’t get me wrong, I’m annoyed. But Slaanesh has always been my favorite. Since 6th edition WHFB. I’m not throwing in the towel when it’s obvious we’re gonna get a reduction. Besides: I haven’t played a game since before Covid hit. I can wait a bit longer for those decreases to hit. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by TimeToWaste85

[Carnith]

The phrase "Rules are temporary, Models are forever"... while true is still a grating phrase to hear. I want to be able to play with my models that I spent a lot of time and money on.

Edit: Real curious to hear Vince Ventrella's take on all of this. I'm sure it'll be a more calm and collected "wait for better weather". I just hope GW is more aggressive with balance. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Carnith

[shinros]

Just now, Carnith said:

The phrase "Rules are temporary, Models are forever"... while true is still a grating phrase to hear. I want to be able to play with my models that I spent a lot of time and money on.

I used to say this a lot, but honestly now that I look back, I think I was just going through the stages of grief. The phrase does ring hallow in light of the slaanesh points, worse, vampire grandma is still 200 points, so I'm still leaning on the theory that someone on the design team has it out for the faction. If they're a team and books are cross-checked, GW sent the handbook to the printers, which meant they thought this was okay. That's what bothers me so much.