AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Sorrow]

2 hours ago, Gistradagis said:

That IS true. The whole AoS 3.0 edition theory makes sense, cuz the same happened with 40k and points, but it does not explain the terrible internal balance of our book, and the amount of non-bo that we have. And, unfortunately, that can't be fixed with a General's Handbook or an FAQ.

Honestly, I do not know what happened to our internal balance.  Even absence of play-testing date due to Covid-19 does not explain this.

Question!

People, how are you liking the new lore in our book? 

Hedonites, mortal or daemon, are all on the march towards Ulgu to worship the Newborn.  I wonder if this Newborn story arc will actually go anywhere. Sigvald and Glutos are, per Broken Realms short story,  going to Excelsis.

 

[Enoby]

I just had another game against the very powerful Legions of Azgor Their list was 18 bull centaur renders (one unit of 6, one unit of 9, and one of 3), Shar'tor the Executioner, bull centaur Taurruk, 20 shooting dwarves, and a daemonsmith. The bull centaurs were in the Execution Herd battalion

I took 

Godseekers

Sigvald

Glutos

Lord of Pain (general), Cameo of Slaanesh 

Shardspeaker

3x Slaangors

5x Painbringers

5× Twinsouls

11x Blissbarb archers

5× Slickblades 

5x Slickblades

No battalions

Obviously not a great list by any stretch, and as a houserule for a LoA handicap summoning wasn't allowed. 

It was shifting objectives again, I was made to go first. Slaangors took one objective and Glutos + Painbringers took the centre and other side. Glutos had mystic shield on him and Painbringers had battleshock immunity spell. All seekers (one of which was the execution target) hung around at the back. 

Shooty dwarves killed two Painbringers - their mortal wounds are nasty!

Bull centaurs charged, with the unit of 9 making it into the Painbringers and Glutos. The unit of 6 made it into the Slaangors. With Glutos's -1 to hit, the Bull centaurs did 0 damage to the Painbringers and 1 to Glutos (four made it into the Painbringers and three into Glutos thanks to the fane and positioning). The Slaangors got very lucky and did 5 wounds, which became 4. Then they all died. Painbringers fluffed and Glutos did some good damage, killing a few. 

LoA got the double turn, charging into the archers and the unit of 6 stayed on the objective. More shots did some damage on Glutos thanks to mortal wounds (about 5 of them), and combat began again. Archers somehow did 4 damage (became 3) in combat and then were wiped out, and Glutos and Painbringers held the line. 

Twin Souls, Slickblades, and the LoP made it into the unit of 6, whereas the other Slickblades made it into the unit of 3. The ones into the unit of 3 wiped them out, one of the other seekers died to the unit of 6, and then the Twin Souls killed two and a bit with their rrs, then the unit of 4 seekers attacked to bring the dwarves to 2 left, one seeker dying in the process thanks to the shields. The LoP fluffed due to a triple 6 save. Glutos and Painbringers did some work. All remaining bull centaurs fled. Sigvald also charged Shar'tor, doing 6 damage and taking 5 in return. 

LoA got the initiative again, shooting Sigvald off the board. Shar'tor charged Glutos, killing him and the Tauruk killed the Painbringer. On my turn, the Twin Souls charges into Shar'tor and the Slickblades into the Tauruk. The Twin Souls killed Shar'tor and the Tauruk killed two seekers before they killed him. We called it there. 

Sigvald:

He was okay, though quite squishy; I'd recommend him going into a horde rather than a hero.  

Glutos:

The clear MVP of the army, tanking loads of attacks and shutting down the opponent with a -1 to hit. That said, in an ideal list, I'd always want a way to heal him. Maybe a contorted epitome with the spell.  

Lord of Pain:

Fluffed a lot but making the Twin Souls and Painbringers battleline was worth it imo.

Shardspeaker:

She was either a double agent or on strike. She failed every cast except an arcane bolt into the Slaangors T1, and failed every 3+ too. I think she's too unreliable at her current cost.

Slaangors:

I got very lucky with them and did some damage, but die to a stiff breeze. As expected, don't take them in a competitive list.

Twinsouls:

Actually were really good with high damage and good board coverage. I can see myself taking a unit of 10.

Painbringers:

Surprisingly good - very tanky for their small units, though MWs will be a downfall. Could see them comfortably at 120pts. I'd really considering taking a decent number of MSU of these guys if they came down.

Blissbarb archers:

Wasn't a fan of these, though they didn't get to shoot thanks to the double turn. They die too quickly and we lack screens to cover for them.

Slickblades:

Absolutely fantastic. They did loads of damage, tanked hits through sheer number of wounds, and had excellent board coverage - I can safely leave them at the back for protection. I can only imagine how much better they'll be in the battalion with more protection. 

Final thoughts:

Not being able to summon left me thin on the ground, but I think the ability to dump summoned units onto objectives is great for tidying up. I wouldn't take Slaangors or a Shardspeaker in a competitive list without a points decrease (or I may just be having awful luck with the Shardspeaker), but overall it was a really fun game with interaction from both sides 

 

[kahadin]

Due to shipping delays I only just got me hedonites book.

I was hoping that summoning would be an option, but it sounds like its a requirement right now.

I was also hoping to mix in nurlge units, like cheap blightkings, but I'm not sure they have a purpose. I feel like hedonites need to fill out battleline with something useful more than they need extra wounds on the table. Warriors or marauders would probably be better. Do you guys have any ideas about nurgle units that might have helped in games you've played?

Slickblades look good. They have skullreaper damage output, but are way faster and only an extra 20 points. Everyone seems to agree that they are great.

Time to just start playing and see whats what.

 

[ibel]

2 hours ago, kahadin said:

Warriors or marauders would probably be better. Do you guys have any ideas about nurgle units that might have helped in games you've played?

Hi,

Warriors are good, jes. A Unit of 5 can easily protect Glutos O or a other Leader AND generate DP because of being wounded by The Burning Head or other.

And jes Marauder are quite Nize for Screening but less more terrifining and effectif. 

Nurgle Units: U will find often the Plaguepriest to make Dmg on your owen Units for DP. I try a Lord of Affliction. That Worked well too but he is very espensive so.... but pls try it. Other Thinks i don't see.

Whats About a Plaguecatapult.. ?

[Enoby]

5 hours ago, kahadin said:

Due to shipping delays I only just got me hedonites book.

I was hoping that summoning would be an option, but it sounds like its a requirement right now.

I was also hoping to mix in nurlge units, like cheap blightkings, but I'm not sure they have a purpose. I feel like hedonites need to fill out battleline with something useful more than they need extra wounds on the table. Warriors or marauders would probably be better. Do you guys have any ideas about nurgle units that might have helped in games you've played?

Slickblades look good. They have skullreaper damage output, but are way faster and only an extra 20 points. Everyone seems to agree that they are great.

Time to just start playing and see whats what.

 

I think the 'summoning issue' is something we can write in about for a possible White Dwarf fix, like Gitz got with their squig, troggoth, and spider allegiance abilities. It would probably take the form of another host that would trade summoning for buffs we could give ourselves. While the Syll'Esske host was broken nonsense, it was created in response to our previous lack of mortals.

Definitely something to write in about.

[whispersofblood]

I actually don't think the internal balance is that bad regarding what is on the warscroll and the relative costs between them. 

For example let's say Seekers are much cheaper. The incentive structure would just be to 2.9 lock with as many units of seekers as possible and run up the score. Which isn't exactly in the spirit of the game. At least blissbarb seekers can pretend to fight and shoot at the target they are locking.

[Eternalis]

20 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

For example let's say Seekers are much cheaper

And what about Seekers being 10 points cheaper and Twinsouls 30 points cheaper? Or Painbringers being 40 points cheaper?
Would you still run only seekers in your list? Or would you mix?
I don't see any incentive right now to play Hedonites mortals (from the hedonites book) because demons are much better even though they are overpriced as well. And this is why the internal balance is bad.

[Enoby]

29 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

And what about Seekers being 10 points cheaper and Twinsouls 30 points cheaper? Or Painbringers being 40 points cheaper?
Would you still run only seekers in your list? Or would you mix?
I don't see any incentive right now to play Hedonites mortals (from the hedonites book) because demons are much better even though they are overpriced as well. And this is why the internal balance is bad.

Maybe it's just me, but I think our mortals are better than our daemons, especially with a KoS vs Glutos (closest match for points). Both suffer from price issues, but I don't really see what our daemons bring to the table compared to the mortals (and S2D/BoC troops). 

I think the real issue of unbalance is S2D and BoC because they're so cheap.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Enoby

[Eternalis]

32 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think the real issue of unbalance is S2D and BoC because they're so cheap.

They're not cheap, they cost the price they should. 90points for 5 chaos warriors is "ok" at best.

Obviously they are much more cost effective than 5 Twinsouls, but bring the Symbaresh at 140 or 130, now you could think about bringing some on the battlefield. You may even consider other competitive lists than spamming STD/ BoC with Glutos...

 

[herohammer]

I agree with whispers. I think the internal balance of the book is quite good actually. Other than glutos, mounted archers, and to a lesser extent slick blade seekers everything is just 30-50 pts more than what other books (with a few exceptions like sylvaneth) seem to pay for comparable units. Compare a Lord of pain to a loonboss who has a very similar CA. Sure the LoP fights better and has a damage prevention ability but he is currently I think 70pts more than a loonboss when realistically  he should be around 30 pts more for his improved stats and DPA. A KoS shouldn’t really cost more than a Bloodthrster. The KoS can cast but the bloodthirster is much better at fighting given that KoS can’t self target their attack twice ability. You can make similar comparisons with a lot of units. Slaangor should cost the same or a little less than tzangor enlightened on foot for example. Blissbarb archers should have a similar cost to namarti reavers.

[whispersofblood]

19 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

And what about Seekers being 10 points cheaper and Twinsouls 30 points cheaper? Or Painbringers being 40 points cheaper?
Would you still run only seekers in your list? Or would you mix?
I don't see any incentive right now to play Hedonites mortals (from the hedonites book) because demons are much better even though they are overpriced as well. And this is why the internal balance is bad.

You can change cost to make almost anything attractive on some level. The biggest problem with Twinblades, and Painbringers is that they are 2W infantry, not really the Warscrolls themselves all their rules are actually beneficial rules. So the issue is with the incentive structure of the game not so much the book. Both Exalted Seeker units are great units, blissbarb archers are decent battleline units as well. I think the worst unit is painbringers, but that is because of the nature of the game and the role that's been assigned to them. 

But we should probably separate the incentive to buy for gaming and the incentive to include in a list. I can write many lists that I wouldn't spend money to build.

[azdimy]

My biggest problem with painbringers and twinsouls is the requirement  to have a lord of pain general to have them battleline. That is another reason why I will field warrior of chaos instead of these two units in my lists

[Carnith]

So I don't know if you guys have seem this lately. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/analyzer/. It gives a score to your list. It's alright at the moment, some things it doesn't recognize, such as battalion benefits. The chariot/seeker list I made was t-tier, so that was neat.

[Silphid]

6 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

I actually don't think the internal balance is that bad regarding what is on the warscroll and the relative costs between them. 

For example let's say Seekers are much cheaper. The incentive structure would just be to 2.9 lock with as many units of seekers as possible and run up the score. Which isn't exactly in the spirit of the game. At least blissbarb seekers can pretend to fight and shoot at the target they are locking.

Can someone explain to me this 2.9” shenanigan? You have to finish 0.5” from enemy by charging to even get within 2.9” of a unit... do you mean to pile in with a unit and tag another at 2.9” while doing so, using the larger oval cavalry bases as a means to easily get closer to your pile in targer and still reach other units at 2.9”.

thanks!

[Gistradagis]

1 minute ago, Silphid said:

Can someone explain to me this 2.9” shenanigan? You have to finish 0.5” from enemy by charging to even get within 2.9” of a unit... do you mean to pile in with a unit and tag another at 2.9” while doing so, using the larger oval cavalry bases as a means to easily get closer to your pile in targer and still reach other units at 2.9”.

thanks!

Pretty much. As models need to pile in closer or as close to the nearest enemy model, if you have 2 units on either side of an enemy unit, at 2.9" (so that it counts as being tied in combat), then the opponent cannot pile in at all (or their unit would break coherency right the middle) unless they have super melee reach, as their models in each extreme would have to move in opposite directions.

It's mostly a theoretical trick, cuz maps aren't that huge and you're basically using 2 units to tie 1 up, so it's quite inefficient. But it can work in a bind, or to tie a middle unit while your units fight something else on either side.

[Popisdead]

16 hours ago, Enoby said:

I just had another game against the very powerful Legions of Azgor Their list was 18 bull centaur renders (one unit of 6, one unit of 9, and one of 3), Shar'tor the Executioner, bull centaur Taurruk, 20 shooting dwarves, and a daemonsmith. The bull centaurs were in the Execution Herd battalion

A local guy has LoA and proxied some Bull Centuars.  What a combat phase they have.  

16 minutes ago, Silphid said:

Can someone explain to me this 2.9” shenanigan? 

Watch the most recent Warhammer Weekly (the last 10-15 minutes maybe?) about Slaanesh (it's on youtube).  Vince shows it with diagrams, the battalion, and the Negative Play Experience it generates (granted in a tournament, who cares everyone knows the score going in).  

[Silphid]

Thanks guys/gals.

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, Carnith said:

So I don't know if you guys have seem this lately. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/analyzer/. It gives a score to your list. It's alright at the moment, some things it doesn't recognize, such as battalion benefits. The chariot/seeker list I made was t-tier, so that was neat.

Do we know how it analyses lists? It seems very difficult to do so - even on a competitive list, I'm not sure how it would understand unit interactions and game plans (for example those lists with 100 pink horrors and no retreat). 

[umpac]

1 hour ago, Gistradagis said:

It's mostly a theoretical trick, cuz maps aren't that huge and you're basically using 2 units to tie 1 up, so it's quite inefficient. But it can work in a bind, or to tie a middle unit while your units fight something else on either side.

The extreme versions are indeed not very practical, but using it to minimize the retaliation from an enemy unit is easily done and very practical. By using 6" pile ins you either place units at both sides of the unit and forces it to stretch out and get terrible frontage or just a single unit to ensure you take almost no damage in the first round of combat you can tie up units with cheaper units easily. I've had 5 blissbard seekers survive 3 rounds of combat to 20 HGB and generate 6 DPs in the process. It really ups the survivability of units by a ****** ton in certain match ups. I've had significantly more success with Seekers Cavalcade lists than anything else.

  Edit:

2 hours ago, Carnith said:

So I don't know if you guys have seem this lately. https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/analyzer/. It gives a score to your list. It's alright at the moment, some things it doesn't recognize, such as battalion benefits. The chariot/seeker list I made was t-tier, so that was neat.

That tool is pretty cool! I don't know how accurate it is but fun nonetheless, and its "Precedent Score" and  "similar lists" function that compares it to tournament lists and shows their placing is pretty awesome (irrelevant right now since it compares the lists to the old book but I see potential!).

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by umpac

[CeleFAZE]

Playing around with the idea of a fully mounted Godseekers army, here's the current list:

Glutos

Syll'Esske (they count :P)

Seeker chariot

Scourgestriders x5

Scourgestriders x5

Blissbarb Seekers x5

Blissbarb Seekers x5

Slickblade Seekers x5

Slickblade Seekers x5

Seeker Cavalcade

Mesmerizing Mirror

 

I figure the hellstriders can work as active chaff and objective sitters, while the various exalted seekers do their thing, with Glutos and Syll'Esske running to keep up. I might swap Syll'Esske with a seeker chariot bladebringer, as I'm not 100% sold on them, but I love the model and how hilariously it plays to the theme, while providing mass battleshock protection for the early turns before Glutos can take over in that regard. I also love their CA shutoff spell, when I actually manage to cast it.

Edited March 11, 2021 by CeleFAZE

[ibel]

18 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

. The biggest problem with Twinblades, and Painbringers is that they are 2W infantry, not really the Warscrolls themselves all their rules are actually beneficial rules. So the issue is with the incentive structure of the game not so much the book.

make them W3 with 3A and ist okay, or Reduce their Points to 110-120, than ist okay.

18 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Both Exalted Seeker units are great units, blissbarb archers are decent battleline units as well.

Exalted Seeker are great Right but without a generell Change (No-doppelturn, or Removing Modells to Multipel-Wounds-Attacks like in 40k) they are not totally overwhelming. I compared them to Snakes from the DOK and it`s okay but they lose too, and they are to expensive to have very much of them.

Blissbard Archers are 40 Points to expensive, and have no MassBonus (but this is a Thing  i think GW won`t it annymore, we will see)

17 hours ago, azdimy said:

My biggest problem with painbringers and twinsouls is the requirement  to have a lord of pain general to have them battleline. That is another reason why I will field warrior of chaos instead of these two units in my lists

This would be Okay if he were in the Battalion and his Commandability could give in the Battalion too every Unit from the Battalion totally in 12". But hey it is 20-30 Points to expensive.

3 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Playing around with the idea of a fully mounted Godseekers army, here's the current list:

Nize nize, but i am not sure About Syllsk, u say it too but okay.

I miss a Spell or Unit to hurt yourself, the Endless Spell, The Burning Head, is very great here for me.

[Jaskier]

Syll'Esske is great, particularly if you're running mortals where the command ability really shines. The spell is great albeit situational, they are on a very small base so are easily protected from combat, they are decently fast and they even hit harder than they did before. The re-roll 1s aura is easier to use than you'd think, as it only triggers off Hedonites so Slaves to Darkness units won't count to its activation, and only units that are wholly within are counted so it isn't so difficult to leverage their speed to get the most out of it. Run them in Invaders and you (probably) won't be disappointed 

[Enoby]

One thing I'd like to investigate more in this army is the use of allies. Now EK has been removed from S2D and BoC, they're effectively allies for the purpose of most allegiance abilities (but not battlefield roles), and so I reckon we could make use of more unusual allies. Kairos has been mentioned before, but I reckon we can find some luck in Nurgle for cheap defensive screens that can defend and generate DP. 

5 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

Playing around with the idea of a fully mounted Godseekers army, here's the current list:

Glutos

Syll'Esske (they count :P)

Seeker chariot

Scourgestriders x5

Scourgestriders x5

Blissbarb Seekers x5

Blissbarb Seekers x5

Slickblade Seekers x5

Slickblade Seekers x5

Seeker Cavalcade

Mesmerizing Mirror

 

I figure the hellstriders can work as active chaff and objective sitters, while the various exalted seekers do their thing, with Glutos and Syll'Esske running to keep up. I might swap Syll'Esske with a seeker chariot bladebringer, as I'm not 100% sold on them, but I love the model and how hilariously it plays to the theme, while providing mass battleshock protection for the early turns before Glutos can take over in that regard. I also love their CA shutoff spell, when I actually manage to cast it.

I think this is an interesting list, and Syll'Esske could definitely find a place in it. I'm not sure if the Hellstriders will do well for you though - it's nice to have them in the battalion, but they're pricey to just sit on an objective. That said, for fully mounted I'm not sure if two seeker chariots would do much better - though you would save 60pts, the loss of bodies would hurt a lot. 

Of all of the units people say are overcosted, I don't think anyone could convince me that Hellstriders aren't the most overcosted. 

[Jaskier]

Speaking of allies, what about that named Mega-Gargant mercenary? Provided he doesn't get focused down immediately, he'd probably be a good source of depravity, and would be able to operate completely independently. All those Rend -2/-3 attacks would definitely be put to good use in our faction. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Jaskier

[zombiepiratexxx]

Hellstriders I just don't understand why GW thought (even now they generate depravity) that they warranted a 50% increase in their points cost. For 50 more points you literally get double the wounds on a more powerful platform, yes the Seekers aren't battleline but that's neither here nor there for the internal balance of these units.