AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Jaskier]

I really want to build my two Myrmidesh/Twinsouls kits as Myrmidesh, mostly for the aesthetics but also just having a unit that can potentially crack 2+/3+ saves, but Twinsouls really are just better in pretty much every way - more damage against almost every save bracket, more speed, and more durability (unless you get +1 save from Lurid Haze, Myrmidesh only have the edge against Rend 0/-1 and only when in combat.) Is there any good reason I should build Myrmidesh over just building Twinsouls with Myrmidesh heads? 

My honest thoughts are that down the line, after some good points drops, Myrmidesh will replace Chaos Warriors as our 5-strong speedbumps/objective holders because of the always-on re-rolls, while Twinsouls will be our version of Chosen that works really well in big squads thanks to the 2" reach. With points the way they are, you can't really run Myrmidesh as speedbump units as they're at least 30 points too expensive for that role, but at least Twinsouls still function well as a hammer unit currently. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Jaskier

[Gistradagis]

32 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I really want to build my two Myrmidesh/Twinsouls kits as Myrmidesh, mostly for the aesthetics but also just having a unit that can potentially crack 2+/3+ saves, but Twinsouls really are just better in pretty much every way - more damage against almost every save bracket, more speed, and more durability (unless you get +1 save from Lurid Haze, Myrmidesh only have the edge against Rend 0/-1 and only when in combat.) Is there any good reason I should build Myrmidesh over just building Twinsouls with Myrmidesh heads? 

My honest thoughts are that down the line, after some good points drops, Myrmidesh will replace Chaos Warriors as our 5-strong speedbumps/objective holders because of the always-on re-rolls, while Twinsouls will be our version of Chosen that works really well in big squads thanks to the 2" reach. With points the way they are, you can't really run Myrmidesh as speedbump units as they're at least 30 points too expensive for that role, but at least Twinsouls still function well as a hammer unit currently. 

I mean... many people actually feel the opposite way. Myrmidesh just need the standard points drop the entire book requires to be "Chaos Warriors but Hedonites," which would be great. Meanwhile, Symbaresh are a bit odd and their design is somewhat flawed (you're forced into a decision turn 1 that'll shake how the unit works, and be completely out of your control), while being just as grossly overcosted. People bring their great "statistical damage," but most armies either have screens they don't care about, or robust anvils that will shrug almost all of the attacks from Symbaresh units, who have no MWs and 0 rend.

You made a fairly good comparison, which brings me to ask: do you see many people running Chosen?

The only reason I can see Myrmidesh being played is because, if (hopefully when) we get the points decrease, Nobles of Excess with a Lord of Pain as general will become a real list, and so we'll see some anvil and hammer play with these 2 units in the battalion, with some heroes and shooting peppered in.

[Jaskier]

31 minutes ago, Gistradagis said:

I mean... many people actually feel the opposite way. Myrmidesh just need the standard points drop the entire book requires to be "Chaos Warriors but Hedonites," which would be great. Meanwhile, Symbaresh are a bit odd and their design is somewhat flawed (you're forced into a decision turn 1 that'll shake how the unit works, and be completely out of your control), while being just as grossly overcosted. People bring their great "statistical damage," but most armies either have screens they don't care about, or robust anvils that will shrug almost all of the attacks from Symbaresh units, who have no MWs and 0 rend.

You made a fairly good comparison, which brings me to ask: do you see many people running Chosen?

The only reason I can see Myrmidesh being played is because, if (hopefully when) we get the points decrease, Nobles of Excess with a Lord of Pain as general will become a real list, and so we'll see some anvil and hammer play with these 2 units in the battalion, with some heroes and shooting peppered in.

I had to re-read the warscroll to understand your comment about the forced decision thing, and I've only now just read they have to switch abilities each battle round. That's a bummer, because if that rule wasn't there you'd just slap the 5++ on all the time and buff them with a Lord of Pain (who you'd be running if you have any Myrmidesh or Twinsouls regardless) once they hit combat - it's still workable because you have to switch it in your hero phase (so i.e. you can keep the 5++ through an opponents' double turn) but it obviously requires a lot of forethought on what order you want the abilities to trigger in. That definitely changes my perspective on the unit, because there was no question they were a better choice with a permanent 5++ under current points. I'm glad you made me go check the warscroll, because now I feel much better about sticking to my original guns and building them as Myrmidesh. 

I will say though that the Chosen comparison was more to do with the role of the unit. The problem with Chosen is that, compared to Chaos Warriors, you actually lose durability (no 5++, no re-rolls in bigger units) and you pay for improved combat stats that are handicapped by the 32mm bases and 1" range, so you really don't want to run them in sizes any bigger than 10 - and 10 is already a stretch. Symbaresh actually get around both of those problems thanks to their 2" range and 5++, but obviously the 5++ only being active on certain turns isn't as big a help as I previously thought. As to how common Chosen are, if I recall correctly I saw them in a Plaguetouched list that did very well at the last Cancon, but I couldn't tell you otherwise because I've not been monitoring the tournament scene since COVID hit. 

As noted, I pointed out how once Myrmidesh get a decent cut they'll be better Chaos Warriors, especially in small units because they likely won't get attention of the kind they can't deal with. Most opponents will see a unit of 5 Myrmidesh and not want to dedicate mortal wounds or high Rend to killing them which is perfect for us because that's what they fall to. I can see blocks of 10 working really well in Lurid Haze too, as a 3+ re-rollable significantly increases their odds of surviving against Rend -2.  

[BaronBanana]

Is magic-centric Slaanesh worth looking into?  Looking at the spells, they seem rather weak and most of the wizards seem like not worth their points

 

[LeonBox]

23 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

Is magic-centric Slaanesh worth looking into?  Looking at the spells, they seem rather weak and most of the wizards seem like not worth their points

 

I wouldn't say so. Outside of the (recently nerfed) Epitome and Glutos, we don't have any casters with bonuses. And yes, a lot of our spells leave much to be desired. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by LeonBox
Grammar

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, BaronBanana said:

Is magic-centric Slaanesh worth looking into?  Looking at the spells, they seem rather weak and most of the wizards seem like not worth their points

 

Magic really isn't something you can build a strategy around for Slaanesh. Many of our heroes being wizards means you'll usually have plenty of dispels/casts/unbinds but outside of the Epitome and Glutos there's nothing that gets re-rolls or bonuses. It's best to treat Slaaneshi magic as a nice bonus, usually to give you Acquiescence or heal your characters. Slothful Stupor and Syll'Esske's spell can be game-winning in the right situation, but they aren't easy to use or cast. If you want to get the most out of our magic, you're best looking at either running Glutos or allying in Fateweaver. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Jaskier

[ibel]

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Is there any good reason I should build Myrmidesh over just building Twinsouls with Myrmidesh heads? 

Myrmidesh are Way better Looking  

But sry i dont think there Dmg Output is that way worser, look at charging a Bastilladon or a Turtle. Even if there is just a Chance to Cause Mortal wounds for me and the ohter on the Table that is Always a thread.

[JackStreicher]

5 minutes ago, ibel said:

Myrmidesh are Way better Looking

Imo Twinsouls look better (with a headswap)

[ibel]

24 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo Twinsouls look better (with a headswap)

I personall like the Shields and Weapons soooooooooo much from the Painbringers.

And jes the MyrmHeads are sooo bad. I dont like them. But jes my actually list for the Nodeles Excess with 8 Painb or Myrm Units is way too expensive on Points.

But i build them…. Maybe we had to wait until Summer/Autumm but the Point drop will come !

[BaronBanana]

How necessary are blissbarb archers and seekers?  Until a points drop,i want to limit my spending on unnecessary purchases to build a viable list.  Slickblades are on the buy list for sure

[whispersofblood]

4 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

How necessary are blissbarb archers and seekers?  Until a points drop,i want to limit my spending on unnecessary purchases to build a viable list.  Slickblades are on the buy list for sure

If you are tight the only new units worth investing in are exalted seekers and Glutos. 

[JackStreicher]

6 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

If you are tight the only new units worth investing in are exalted seekers and Glutos. 

Indeed

[Gistradagis]

15 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

How necessary are blissbarb archers and seekers?  Until a points drop,i want to limit my spending on unnecessary purchases to build a viable list.  Slickblades are on the buy list for sure

Archers are a bit too much unless you really need them as battleline. Otherwise, you can easily avoid them. Blissbarb Seekers, on the other hand, are quite better. Despite their low output of damage, they are amazing at farming DPs, and it's usually worth it running one unit in most lists.

Slickblades might be the best unit in the entire book, not counting heroes.

[BaronBanana]

Thanks for the quick responses. With that being said, using what I have, how does this look for a list?

Lurid Haze

Glutos - Invader general

Sigvald - Invader general

Chaos Lord on Manticore - General, Skin-taker, Rod of Misrule

2x15 Chaos Warriors with Greatblades

1x20 Marauders

2x5 Blissbarb Seeker

 

2000 on the dot

Edited March 5, 2021 by BaronBanana

[Enoby]

3 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

Thanks for the quick responses. With that being said, using what I have, how does this look for a list?

Lurid Haze

Glutos - Invader general

Sigvald - Invader general

Chaos Lord on Manticore - General, Skin-taker, Rod of Misrule

2x15 Chaos Warriors with Greatblades

1x20 Marauders

2x5 Blissbarb Seeker

 

2000 on the dot

I think the chaos warriors should use the halberds so they can reach over one another, and probably better to take a chaos sorcerer lord over a chaos lord on manticore for their spell It might be worth using those spare points to swap the blissbarbs to slickblades. The blissbarbs aren't bad but I think the slickblades would help make up for a lack of melee damage (chaos warriors are destined to never do damage).

[BaronBanana]

15 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think the chaos warriors should use the halberds so they can reach over one another, and probably better to take a chaos sorcerer lord over a chaos lord on manticore for their spell It might be worth using those spare points to swap the blissbarbs to slickblades. The blissbarbs aren't bad but I think the slickblades would help make up for a lack of melee damage (chaos warriors are destined to never do damage).

Thanks for the input!  I could also drop Sigvald for Karkadrak Lord and make both Seekers into Slickblades as well

Edited March 5, 2021 by BaronBanana

[ibel]

53 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

How necessary are blissbarb archers and seekers?  Until a points drop,i want to limit my spending on unnecessary purchases to build a viable list.  Slickblades are on the buy list for sure

I think u Need both Blissbarb as Long as u Need Shooting for the Desperation Points. So The Archer too foot are wayyyyyy to expensive no Question.

BSeeker are good jes. And best Non-HeroUnit in Book. But saddly not AutoPic-Awesome-Good. Sry.

Your List is nize, but Saddly CW are not as good as in a S2D Army and Marauder too, and so i didnt really like it, No Synergie, a summonebl KoS cant buff the CW or Marauder…. it is a very sad think but it is because of the Batteltome, not the Listbuilding. 

[Enoby]

7 minutes ago, ibel said:

I think u Need both Blissbarb as Long as u Need Shooting for the Desperation Points. So The Archer too foot are wayyyyyy to expensive no Question.

BSeeker are good jes. And best Non-HeroUnit in Book. But saddly not AutoPic-Awesome-Good. Sry.

Your List is nize, but Saddly CW are not as good as in a S2D Army and Marauder too, and so i didnt really like it, No Synergie, a summonebl KoS cant buff the CW or Marauder…. it is a very sad think but it is because of the Batteltome, not the Listbuilding. 

The warriors won't be doing much damage but they do have 'synergy' in the sense that they're very cheap and very tanky especially with Glutos. They'll hold an objective well and marauders can harass.

34 minutes ago, BaronBanana said:

Thanks for the input!  I could also drop Sigvald for Karkadrak Lord and make both Seekers into Slickblades as well

That'd also work, though the Karkadrak Lord isn't the best for damage They're not terrible and they are tanky, but unlike Sigvald you can't expect him to do much against any tanky unit in combat.

[Third]

9 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I had to re-read the warscroll to understand your comment about the forced decision thing, and I've only now just read they have to switch abilities each battle round. That's a bummer, because if that rule wasn't there you'd just slap the 5++ on all the time and buff them with a Lord of Pain (who you'd be running if you have any Myrmidesh or Twinsouls regardless) once they hit combat - it's still workable because you have to switch it in your hero phase (so i.e. you can keep the 5++ through an opponents' double turn) but it obviously requires a lot of forethought on what order you want the abilities to trigger in. That definitely changes my perspective on the unit, because there was no question they were a better choice with a permanent 5++ under current points. I'm glad you made me go check the warscroll, because now I feel much better about sticking to my original guns and building them as Myrmidesh. 

I will say though that the Chosen comparison was more to do with the role of the unit. The problem with Chosen is that, compared to Chaos Warriors, you actually lose durability (no 5++, no re-rolls in bigger units) and you pay for improved combat stats that are handicapped by the 32mm bases and 1" range, so you really don't want to run them in sizes any bigger than 10 - and 10 is already a stretch. Symbaresh actually get around both of those problems thanks to their 2" range and 5++, but obviously the 5++ only being active on certain turns isn't as big a help as I previously thought. As to how common Chosen are, if I recall correctly I saw them in a Plaguetouched list that did very well at the last Cancon, but I couldn't tell you otherwise because I've not been monitoring the tournament scene since COVID hit. 

As noted, I pointed out how once Myrmidesh get a decent cut they'll be better Chaos Warriors, especially in small units because they likely won't get attention of the kind they can't deal with. Most opponents will see a unit of 5 Myrmidesh and not want to dedicate mortal wounds or high Rend to killing them which is perfect for us because that's what they fall to. I can see blocks of 10 working really well in Lurid Haze too, as a 3+ re-rollable significantly increases their odds of surviving against Rend -2.  

I would in no world take Painbringers over Twinsouls.. Re-rolling the save only in melee made the call really easy, before that I was probably 85/15 towards Twinsouls... 

Math doesn't lie, 2" range, 8"move.. It's not even a contest if you ask me 🙂

[zombiepiratexxx]

18 hours ago, umpac said:

What units are you looking to build your list around?

I have at least one box of all the Daemons from the last book so that's all fine. I don't have Hellstriders but may get Shadow and Pain as that might be an easy way to get them for Battleline. Really, I'd like to use my Seekers and 6 Fiends seem like a decent smash unit if a little fragile. 

[Overread]

34 minutes ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

I have at least one box of all the Daemons from the last book so that's all fine. I don't have Hellstriders but may get Shadow and Pain as that might be an easy way to get them for Battleline. Really, I'd like to use my Seekers and 6 Fiends seem like a decent smash unit if a little fragile. 

I'd grab Shadow and Pain - you can easily sell off the DoK models if you don't want them. Heck I got two and now I've 20 hellstriders which I'll likely make into 10 of each variation. 

[LeonBox]

What do people think about running Bladebringers on Seeker chariots as mobile Slickblade support? They can more or less keep up with them, they have acquiescence for re-rolling ones on the Slickblades' targets, and they can use their locus to prevent pile-ins on the Slickblades. Also (correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't they get a look out sir from the Slickblades? 

[CeleFAZE]

1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

What do people think about running Bladebringers on Seeker chariots as mobile Slickblade support? They can more or less keep up with them, they have acquiescence for re-rolling ones on the Slickblades' targets, and they can use their locus to prevent pile-ins on the Slickblades. Also (correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't they get a look out sir from the Slickblades? 

This isn't an observation for bladebringers specifically, but I've been thinking that among our choices for 2.9" locking shenanigans with the cavalcade, it's probably more efficient to use normal chariots for that, and let the slickblades do the killing that they're way better suited for.

If you're in the applaudable position of not gaming weird technicalities in the rules, then the hero chariots are okay, certainly. The bladebringers bring utility (and blades, presumably), and if you are in a matchup where spellcasting is possible without ludicrous unbinding capabilities from your opponent, then acquiescence is great. If not they're still a platform that can use the command ability that provides the same benefit. 

I'm personally interested in testing out scourgestriders as offensive blocking buddies for slickblades, as with the 4+ save and -1 to be hit if they charge, they may be a decent choice for the role, and also fill battleline requirements. They're absolutely overcosted for what they are, but that's just the reality of everything but slickblades for us at the moment.

[Yokai]

The good folks over at Goonhammer did a re-evaluation of the battletome, two weeks later. It's a good read.

Evaluating the new Hedonites of Slaanesh Battletome – Is the Army Any Good Now?

[Jaskier]

12 hours ago, Third said:

I would in no world take Painbringers over Twinsouls.. Re-rolling the save only in melee made the call really easy, before that I was probably 85/15 towards Twinsouls... 

Math doesn't lie, 2" range, 8"move.. It's not even a contest if you ask me 🙂

Twinsouls are absolutely the better unit in bigger sizes, where Myrmidesh will shine is in units of 5. If Twinsouls had that 5++ all the time they'd be the best of the two regardless, but potentially not having it when you need it could be crippling. We have to see how points drops affect each unit, as Myrmidesh in particular currently aren't really able to fill their role (better Chaos Warriors) at current points.

The one thing I will note about that Goonhammer article is that while we can't summon as quickly as we used to thanks to the 1 per turn limits and so on, our starting lists will typically be far more durable through virtue of fielding more wounds. The typical wounds I fielded under the old book was anywhere between 80 and the high 90s, with one list (a triple Soul Grinder one) skewing up to 120. Now, most of my lists hover around the 120-130 mark at minimum, and that's without leaning heavily on Slaves units or using the Depraved Drove. Not having to spam heroes will make our starting armies tougher as even our overpriced units are obviously still more efficient defensively. Once we start seeing points drops this will become even clearer. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Jaskier