Concerns with the development of AOS 2

[Dead Scribe]

I'd really like to see the full game come down to 60-90 minutes somehow.   That would let us get more games in at tournaments.  

[Skabnoze]

12 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'd really like to see the full game come down to 60-90 minutes somehow.   That would let us get more games in at tournaments.  

Honestly that seems like it should be a different game at that point.  What is the point of playing such a large miniature game in such a short amount of time?  If this is a tournament thing then it seems like the tournament rules should facilitate a quicker game if that is necessary.

There are a ton of miniature games on the market and plenty of games designed with less models, less setup, and faster play.  Hopefully Warcry ends up similar enough to KillTeam to fill that niche for AoS.

[Dead Scribe]

We're already at 90-120 minutes for the most part.  With their new books coming out doing even more mortal wounds I think that we can get there and its not really a whole different game.  

[kenshin620]

2 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Honestly that seems like it should be a different game at that point. 

AoS 3.0, everyone get back into movement tray regiments!

Mmmmm movement trays.🤩

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

AoS 3.0, everyone get back into movement tray regiments!

Mmmmm movement trays.🤩

Honestly I'd love for GW to do Warmaster for AoS - perfect scale for proper rank and file style fights and the setting is ripe for releasing some BIG 15mm or so monsters. GodBeasts and the like that would be titans in AoS. 

Plus rank and file makes sense at that scale, you can have a more birds eye view of the battlefield and the setting and the terrain. It alawys feels odd when you're wheeling and turning 20 men around a single standing tree in 35mm; but when its 10 strips of 5 cavalry wheeling around a small cops of trees that makes far more sense. 

 

Sadly I don't think we'll see Warmaster again. The smaller scales never seem to sell as powerfully as the 35mm and it hasn't got something like Titan models to draw people in from the side like Epic 40K has with Adpeticus Titanicus. That said if someone at GW loves Warmaster enough we could see it back - the market for fantasy in that scale is basically untouched. There's a few here and there but they are often models without rules and small garage operations - neat for a single club if they latch on but they aren't going far in the world (sadly). Historicals rule that market so it would be great to see GW take a step there and bring back that scale for fantasy. 

 

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

We're already at 90-120 minutes for the most part.  With their new books coming out doing even more mortal wounds I think that we can get there and its not really a whole different game.  

If the point is to have fast games then a smaller scale game is the better option.  What is the point of playing a large scale battle game  with lots of models and played on a board bigger than an average dinner table if short games are the desire?

Other games already fill this niche.  Hopefully Warcry fills that void for the AoS universe.  But AoS is still a large battles game.  And there are already existing levers that can be pulled to alter game speed.  If games need to be faster then drop the point values.

[kenshin620]

5 minutes ago, Overread said:

Honestly I'd love for GW to do Warmaster for AoS - perfect scale for proper rank and file style fights and the setting is ripe for releasing some BIG 15mm or so monsters. GodBeasts and the like that would be titans in AoS.

 

Unless Warmaster is allowed to be made by a 3rd party. Maybe it won't have miniatures but something would be nice. Kind of like Heroes of Blackreach.

[Dead Scribe]

I guess it goes the direction that sells.  A lot of people seem to like larger scale games due to the spectacle, but don't want to spend 4-5 hours playing one game when they can play other games faster and get more games in.

So the preference is to mix the larger scale game with mechanics that remove models fast so we can get more games in of that.  It makes it more exciting to be honest.

As to games like warmaster, there is probably a reason why those games never do well commercially - there is not really a lasting appeal to something like that.  If there was, I'd wager games like the original warhammer wouldn't have been scrapped for a game like AOS.

[Overread]

Lets not forget one reason that original Fantasy was doing so poorly was because GW ignored it for years and was focusing attention on Lord of the Rings and 40K. Warhammer Fantasy got ignored, got out dated and left behind and that didn't help sales one bit. Mantic and 9thed projects show that there's still a rank and file style market for the 35mm scale. AoS didn't have to be 40K style, GW just made the choice. What makes AoS popular is not just its design but the attention it gets from GW itself; coupled to model quality.

Wargamers abandon ship fairly fast when a game starts to get ignored. When it might take 5 years to build an army a gamer doesn't want to invest into that if the game is already ignored and getting poor quality updates; esp if the host company is focusing loads of great stuff into another product line. And once that ball starts rolling it self perpetuates itself - fewer pick it up; fewer play it so it falls out of cycle at local clubs etc.... Not to mention that at that time GW was pushing Lord of the Rings and Privateer Press was in full swing with tehir fantasy game. 

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

As to games like warmaster, there is probably a reason why those games never do well commercially - there is not really a lasting appeal to something like that.  If there was, I'd wager games like the original warhammer wouldn't have been scrapped for a game like AOS.

 

[Skabnoze]

@Overread in the case of WFB I don’t think the poor business choice to couple general price increases with an edition designed to scale up the size of armies should be understated.  From what I saw this killed adoption more than anything.  The rules for 8th promoted larger sized armies and bigger units on the whole and GW was also increasing the cost of most box sets and/or reducing how many models came in many sets.

I think they could have got away with doing one of those things, but the combination just made the game too expensive for most new players to buy into - especially with the competition on the market at the time.  It was a very short sighted move.

[Overread]

Aye very true it likely did not help matters; esp when in that day and age GW wasn't pushing a Skirmish/Tillteam style game so if you wanted to join in you "needed" a big army of at least 1K in models (since at 500 points or less the game never really worked properly well for most armies - esp with rank and file where that might mean you've got one or two "units" and a hero - so only 3 items to move around the ta ble) 

[Charleston]

I guess there could be whole threads filled with the WHFB to AOS Transition topic. It is a quite fascinating topic that shows a thrilling mix of hobby aspects, design work and economics going hand in hand, with a pinch of juristic chapterhouse drama. It´s a tale starting during the "Kirby Era" (Which, honestly, should be renamed to "Age of Kirby" to match a certain pattern.). It would be a narrative written from different perspectives: Old bearded mans legends about how gw was a magical small british company with affordable miniatures which were in all terms better than the todays sculpts and mixing up with the old tribes of the ninth age who still look over into the AoS subs with spite over their lost homeworld. And in the denter of all of it: A small british gaming manufacturer that actually ain´t that small since some time, pretty bad management decisions that somehow even got reflected by game design, the fall of an CEO and the come back of the company as the redeemer of the hobby, with active community work, good game design, a flood of new releases and a magical unicorn that is somehow able to keep the design team alive during the endless effort of designing the next miniature wave after wave.

Yeah, I guess it would be a great documentation for Vice

[Dead Scribe]

I would be interested to see if there was a market for rank and file games.  I hear about 9th and kings of war, but no one even remotely near me touches those games.  The only time I ever see Kings of War was at Adepticon.  And talking with some of those guys, their communities are also rather tiny and they have to travel to tournaments just to get in games.  I've never even seen a 9th Age game played anywhere except for on Youtube.

If there was a market for those games that was the same size and scope as AOS, I would think that at least one of those other games (KOW or 9th) would have a sizeable share of players as well, but it really doesn't seem to be near the case.

[svnvaldez]

12 hours ago, The World Tree said:

It doesn't feel good to do it and I don't want to have my nose in a book whilst playing just to make sure I remember all of the spells. Like magic items, it is just bloat. 

I am shocked that GW never made realm spell cards available for purchase.  No one wants multiple books open just to play a standard game.

[The World Tree]

7 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

I am shocked that GW never made realm spell cards available for purchase.  No one wants multiple books open just to play a standard game.

Especially when they produce cards for 40k and previously did exactly this for WHFB.

What they really need to do is to centralise every scenario and realm feature in the GHB so that is all you need to bring. The fact that all the realm rules are split is particularly egregious. It actually discourages narrative play!

[svnvaldez]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Honestly that seems like it should be a different game at that point.  

You are probably right on this. I'm really excited to see if Warcry becomes a fully supported long term alternative for competitive players. I think Shadespire was just "to different" to scratch the itch that AOS players are looking for with a table top game.

[Sleboda]

6 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

So the preference is to mix the larger scale game with mechanics that remove models fast so we can get more games in of that.  It makes it more exciting to be honest.

I am, of course, in no way suggesting your view is wrong or anything like that. I'm commenting because the part about removing models quickly stands out.

A major triumph of AoS is that GW finally succeeded in creating a system that allowed for hugely powerful characters or units from the lore to be on the table while simultaneously keeping models on the table longer. 

One of the most disappointing aspects of hobby games is having a thing you spent three weeks painting get taken off the table straight away in its first game. It's such a bummer of an experience. Massive let down.

Now, with AoS, that happens far less than it used to in Warhammer. There are lots of reasons for it, but at the end of the day, the system now lets us actually play with our labors of love instead of just setting them up and taking them off.

 

[Skabnoze]

55 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

I am shocked that GW never made realm spell cards available for purchase.  No one wants multiple books open just to play a standard game.

Or normal spell cards.  I like the warscroll cards, but I really wish they would make cards for the spells, general traits, and items.

[Greyshadow]

Even digital cards, like the war scroll cards that you can download and print.

[Nos]

4 hours ago, Overread said:

Lets not forget one reason that original Fantasy was doing so poorly was because GW ignored it for years and was focusing attention on Lord of the Rings and 40K. Warhammer Fantasy got ignored, got out dated and left behind and that didn't help sales one bit. Mantic and 9thed projects show that there's still a rank and file style market for the 35mm scale. AoS didn't have to be 40K style, GW just made the choice. What makes AoS popular is not just its design but the attention it gets from GW itself; coupled to model quality.

Wargamers abandon ship fairly fast when a game starts to get ignored. When it might take 5 years to build an army a gamer doesn't want to invest into that if the game is already ignored and getting poor quality updates; esp if the host company is focusing loads of great stuff into another product line. And once that ball starts rolling it self perpetuates itself - fewer pick it up; fewer play it so it falls out of cycle at local clubs etc.... Not to mention that at that time GW was pushing Lord of the Rings and Privateer Press was in full swing with tehir fantasy game. 

 

AOS rules are very close to the original LOTR games-well, Fellowship and Two Towers at any rate. It benefits from that legacy at least.

I think Warmaster is the best set of rules GW ever produced and it’s minis were extraordinaryily good for the scale. But I think small scale is always going to be secondary to 28mm because there is the perception that it’s harder to paint at that scale.

[Sleboda]

I really wanted to like Warmaster, but a game where missing one die roll for one thing can mean your entire remaining army is not allowed to act is a big turn off for me.

Now, if they were to bring out an AoS game with 6mm scale and using tweaked Titan Legions/Space Marine rules, I might have to sign the deed to my house over to GW. Especially if it had Tomb Kings.

[SwampHeart]

9 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

We're already at 90-120 minutes for the most part. 

Not even remotely, most tournaments are moving from 2.5 hours to 3 hours to try and finish games. 5 turns of AoS is a 3 hour situation and even with 3 hour rounds many games don't make it to 5. If you want 60 minute rounds play Underworlds, its designed from the ground up for competitive play and time is already factored in. 

[AverageBoss]

10 hours ago, Overread said:

Lets not forget one reason that original Fantasy was doing so poorly was because GW ignored it for years and was focusing attention on Lord of the Rings and 40K. Warhammer Fantasy got ignored, got out dated and left behind and that didn't help sales one bit. Mantic and 9thed projects show that there's still a rank and file style market for the 35mm scale. AoS didn't have to be 40K style, GW just made the choice. What makes AoS popular is not just its design but the attention it gets from GW itself; coupled to model quality.

Wargamers abandon ship fairly fast when a game starts to get ignored. When it might take 5 years to build an army a gamer doesn't want to invest into that if the game is already ignored and getting poor quality updates; esp if the host company is focusing loads of great stuff into another product line. And once that ball starts rolling it self perpetuates itself - fewer pick it up; fewer play it so it falls out of cycle at local clubs etc.... Not to mention that at that time GW was pushing Lord of the Rings and Privateer Press was in full swing with tehir fantasy game. 

 

And for anyone that missed out on this for WFB,  we can see this with the various FFG Star Wars properties happening as we speak. Legion and X-Wing are getting far more attention and are attracting far more players, Armada and Assault have been more or less ignored (its been over a year since the last product release for Armada) and they are leaking players like a sieve.

[Skabnoze]

@AverageBoss how is Imperial Assault leaking players?  It is a cooperative campaign game.  It is pretty much a board game and only requires one person in a game group to purchase.

[Ironbreaker]

Personally I hate how freely mortal wounds are dished out. It's mostly because I play Dispossessed and have virtually no easy access to reliably produce mortal wounds. I am always on the receiving end. I desperately hope for an update soon to Dispossessed that either gives us access to mortal wounds or gives us a counter to them since we are supposed to be the tanks of Order.