AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Ratcliff]

8 minutes ago, Alris said:

I have see no rule about line of sight in the starter rule but by the way here is a versus

 

 

You'll be fine mate

[Alris]

Ok. I just have to get motivation and time to paint it now ^^

 

[Axter]

Guys, i'm going to play a 1000 pt game against a stormcast player, for now i can't play mixed clans becouse i'm still waiting the clan rats that i bought, so i have to go pure pestilens (maybe  agrey seer general)

My problem is: less big unit or more small units? Like 40-40-20 with 2 furnace (or 1 furnace and 1 grey seer) or 20-20-20-20-20 with 1 furnace and a grey seer? 

The game will be on on "changing objective" i think it's called, the one with 3 objective right in the middle, what are yours suggestions?

[Overread]

@Axter for rats you want fewer bigger units in general unless you're using units to screen other units. So you want 40-40-20 with the 20 likely being used to screen one of the 40 or another unit (eg furnace). The idea being that rats get bonuses when they are in larger groups now, so you want to maximise your chance of getting as much of that bonus as you can. So you expect to take losses on your way to the enemy so you take big blocks so that as much can survive as possible.

If you take units too small you run the risk you'll get enough chipped away that you wont' get any bonus in combat; by which point the rats are purely there for a distraction/tarpit for a turn or two. That's great if they are protecting something like a furnace behind them, but its no good at all if that's your primary thrust. 

 

[Axter]

32 minutes ago, Overread said:

@Axter for rats you want fewer bigger units in general unless you're using units to screen other units. So you want 40-40-20 with the 20 likely being used to screen one of the 40 or another unit (eg furnace). The idea being that rats get bonuses when they are in larger groups now, so you want to maximise your chance of getting as much of that bonus as you can. So you expect to take losses on your way to the enemy so you take big blocks so that as much can survive as possible.

If you take units too small you run the risk you'll get enough chipped away that you wont' get any bonus in combat; by which point the rats are purely there for a distraction/tarpit for a turn or two. That's great if they are protecting something like a furnace behind them, but its no good at all if that's your primary thrust. 

 

The thing is i'm scared that he will set on rhe sky some storncast and set them righr back to me and charge, with all his bonus it'a pretty easy. A unit of 40 it's hard to protect from that, a unit of 20 once charged have another unit of 20 ready to revenge them, am i wrong?

[Overread]

Aye but if you take a Contagion Banner then every time he kills a rat then you get to roll a dice and on a D6 he takes a mortal wound. 

Plus they only have bravery of 5, so you want as many 10s of units as you can for as long as you can so that you get the +2 to bravery for each 10 models the unit has. 

Finally with 40 units you get both Overwhelming mass bonuses to re-roll and can lose 10 models before you lose only one of the bonuses. Whilst if you drop to 20 then as soon as you lose a single rat you don't get either bonus.

 

Whilst a large unit is easier to hit, but it has a lot more durability which for skaven is very important. Otherwise you run a high risk that the smaller units of 20 will not only get picked off, but won't have enough threat on their own to actually do much to the stormcast. Like I said units of 20 are great as a buffer, as a distraction and something to hold the enemy up for a bit; but with plague monks and clan rats they are not units that are going to do much "work" in the army. If you want your infantry to do work and kill things you really need to have big blocks of them in a single unit. 

[Skreech Verminking]

18 minutes ago, Axter said:

The thing is i'm scared that he will set on rhe sky some storncast and set them righr back to me and charge, with all his bonus it'a pretty easy. A unit of 40 it's hard to protect from that, a unit of 20 once charged have another unit of 20 ready to revenge them, am i wrong?

As Overread just said, taking big units of 40 is definitely the better option.

so even if your friend-foe starts taking his poster-things and tripping them turn one into you plague monks, remember that with the exception of Dok, they would need at least 400p worth of models to fully destroy one of your units of 40plague monks.

And even if you’ll lose them, why would you care, such a cheap unit was meant to die anyways.

Also since you’d be taking a grey seer, I’d just recommend you to take the deathfrenzy magic.

cast it on your plague monks who might get charged next turn, give em an extra attack with the plague furnace, and those rats will slaughter any fool-thing that things charging his 500p unit into your your cheap meatshields was a great idea 

[Axter]

Mmm ok than

8 minutes ago, Overread said:

Aye but if you take a Contagion Banner then every time he kills a rat then you get to roll a dice and on a D6 he takes a mortal wound. 

Plus they only have bravery of 5, so you want as many 10s of units as you can for as long as you can so that you get the +2 to bravery for each 10 models the unit has. 

Finally with 40 units you get both Overwhelming mass bonuses to re-roll and can lose 10 models before you lose only one of the bonuses. Whilst if you drop to 20 then as soon as you lose a single rat you don't get either bonus.

 

Whilst a large unit is easier to hit, but it has a lot more durability which for skaven is very important. Otherwise you run a high risk that the smaller units of 20 will not only get picked off, but won't have enough threat on their own to actually do much to the stormcast. Like I said units of 20 are great as a buffer, as a distraction and something to hold the enemy up for a bit; but with plague monks and clan rats they are not units that are going to do much "work" in the army. If you want your infantry to do work and kill things you really need to have big blocks of them in a single unit. 

Mmmmm ok thanks, so you would say big unit. What do you say it's better, 40-40-30 with 1 furnace and a greyseer (for the magic that make me attack when i die) or 40-40-20 and 2 furnace? A double furnace will help me more with no shocking and give me more mortals, but grey seer still give a really good magic

[Skreech Verminking]

8 minutes ago, Axter said:

Mmm ok than

Mmmmm ok thanks, so you would say big unit. What do you say it's better, 40-40-30 with 1 furnace and a greyseer (for the magic that make me attack when i die) or 40-40-20 and 2 furnace? A double furnace will help me more with no shocking and give me more mortals, but grey seer still give a really good magic

Remember that there is an artefact which the grey seer can make your units battleshock immune just like the screaming bell or plague furnace😉

[angrycontra]

3 hours ago, Russrmc said:

interesting heads up for those of a tournament mind- the great team behind the South Coast GT just confirmed that as far as they are concerned, if a battalion has pitched battle points, it is useable in matched play and at events- which is also GW's stance. Therefore the (much more viable) skryre formation  in the Carrion empire set is available for list building...

for those who have not seen it, it's found in the carrion empire booklet, requires you to take the box contents as a formation, costs 140 points and gives all models in the formation a 5+ death save for turn one, helping mitigate alpha strikes. More than that, it's an extra artefact and a much reduced drop number for getting that essential pew pew first turn priority.  

 

Consequently my list is now built around this formation and I am wondering the plausibility of taking it twice! It would cost about the same as  a warpcog convocation and is potentially way more useful to have this in your list twice...  it would look something like this and is a three drop list.

 

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor 
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector 
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Artefact:  Aetherquartz Brooch

Battleline
3 x Stormfiends (260)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
15 x Skryre Acolytes (180)

War Machines
Doomwheel (160)
Doomwheel (160)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Battalions
Skatchnik's Warpcoven (140)

Skatchnik's Warpcoven (140)


Endless Spells
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93

 

Not sure how viable it is tbh, I think you're better off only taking the formation once but it's an interesting exercise nonetheless. 

I don't know, to me this list just doesn't quite seem to work. Here's couple of problems:

1. Only 2 heroes but you have 3 artifacts. You're losing a lot of value on one of your battalions. Also 2 heroes is just too easy to snipe out and you auto-lose any "only heroes/behemots can hold any objectives"-scenarios. Finally those cannons need dedicated warlock to empower them and when you have only 2 heroes you can't really use them to boost your other guys.

2. You don't need extra command points in skyre list like that. Best command point uses for skyre are bshock immunities (but your units are too small to benefit from that), run 6 for acolytes (but you only have 1 unit for that) and charge rerolls for stormfiends (but again those sf units are too small to make greatest impact).

3. Not every list out there is alpha strike and this list imo doesn't necessarily do good enough job guarding you from such lists. After all, when your opponent charges and locks your units in melee, most of your ranged units are stuck and you lose. 5++ for first turn is decent but not 280 decent. If you really want battalion, just take 1 and put those guys in front line.

4. Warp lightning vortex is great spell but it is massive point sink and very difficult to cast. I've played games where every spell with 7 casting value has failed and this one has 8. You only have warlock engineers who are not reliable casters to pull that off (grey seer as general would do lot better job on that front, plus it can get +1 to cast from trait).

5. Aaand finally this list ultimately fails to cover ground efficiently. Basically any horde armies will simply overwhelm your numbers and control all objectives by default.

My recommendations:

Drop the 2nd battalion, if you don't want any non-skyre as general drop vortex too, get 1 unit of 6 stormfiends (they can shield rest of your army pretty well with 5++ sv on first turn) and maybe extra hero too.

[Axter]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Remember that there is an artefact which the grey seer can make your units battleshock immune just like the screaming bell or plague furnace😉

But this means losing liber bubonicus on the furnace, and still the grey seer it's easy to kill

[Skreech Verminking]

21 minutes ago, Axter said:

But this means losing liber bubonicus on the furnace, and still the grey seer it's easy to kill

It’s funny but most people will ignore him, and go for the bigger trophy, which would be in your list the plague furnace.

[Axter]

6 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

It’s funny but most people will ignore him, and go for the bigger trophy, which would be in your list the plague furnace.

No they want, i played him 2 times and both times the enemy targetted him ****** hard, even with "look out sir" people want his head so bad

[Lobeau]

So I'm looking at storage options for my Skaventide. I'm not a big fan of magnetic solutions, and like the battlefoam inserts for the Gnawholes and Skaven spells. Does anyone know what size I'd need to store clanrats with spears and Stormvermin? Also trying to figure out how I'd store a verminlord, Hell pit Abobination, 2 WLCs, 2 doomwheels, and the a gaggle of heros weapons teams and whatnot. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

[Skreech Verminking]

13 minutes ago, Axter said:

No they want, i played him 2 times and both times the enemy targetted him ****** hard, even with "look out sir" people want his head so bad

Wow your enemy surely hates  Grey seers😳.

I’ve brought him to many battles as well, and mostly my enemy’s just ignored him for no reason at all.

then again since the new battletome arrived the Verminlord warbringer has become the new target practic for my foe-things artillery.

[MrZakalwe]

32 minutes ago, Lobeau said:

So I'm looking at storage options for my Skaventide. I'm not a big fan of magnetic solutions, 

There's your problem, you don't like the best solution to the problem  

[Noit]

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warpseer (260)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141

 

Could i have some feedback about my list?

Thanks guys.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Noit

[Russrmc]

3 hours ago, angrycontra said:

 

Drop the 2nd battalion, if you don't want any non-skyre as general drop vortex too, get 1 unit of 6 stormfiends (they can shield rest of your army pretty well with 5++ sv on first turn) and maybe extra hero too.

yeah I was pretty much there too, this was an academic exercise really! I've gone with one of the battalions, and fit in 40 acolytes and a warpseer to round it out along with the six fiends as you say...looks like a fun list and still only five drops so a really good chance of going first, which would enable a lot of damage output, or weathering the storm if I go second with ablative front line and a warpseer in a doppelganger cloak which is hilarious on a model that can scurry away  

[Skreech Verminking]

30 minutes ago, Noit said:

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warpseer (260)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141

 

Could i have some feedback about my list?

Thanks guys.

Your list will definitely conquer the magic and shooting phase.

the problem which comes with this list, though is the staying power in combat.

Playing against Dok or deepkins you may notice that something that can hold those aelve for some turns will be necessary, and 60clanrats will sadly just be slaughtered in the first turn of combat, which mean that you’d have only your fantastic shooting units left, with which you really don’t  want to go into combat.

so taking another 40-60clanrats should give you that staying power

[Gwendar]

@Noit I agree with @Skreech Verminking to some extent. I've played a couple games against DoK and have found that even if they do slaughter your small units of Clanrats, the Warpfire can open up on them next turn and absolutely decimate them. This is of course assuming they do not get a double turn or Orgy of Slaughter a unit (which would then potentially allow it to get to your warpfire thrower in the combat phase).

All that said, 20 Witch Aelves can still decimate 40 Clanrats in one combat phase if they're fully buffed so.. I'm not sure you would notice a huge difference either way. I no longer use stormfiends and find that those 520 points could benefit you in so many more ways but I understand if you want to keep them.

[Noit]

9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Your list will definitely conquer the magic and shooting phase.

the problem which comes with this list, though is the staying power in combat.

Playing against Dok or deepkins you may notice that something that can hold those aelve for some turns will be necessary, and 60clanrats will sadly just be slaughtered in the first turn of combat, which mean that you’d have only your fantastic shooting units left, with which you really don’t  want to go into combat.

so taking another 40-60clanrats should give you that staying power

Mmh,i can remove the WLV and the WT,seems the safest choice since i dont have a reliable cast without a grey seer,i still feel that im going in the wrong way keeping the Stormfiends at any cost.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Noit

[Noit]

9 hours ago, Nevar said:

Hey guys... my rat-madness has me second guessing my lists a bunch, and then changes came to the models I can expect to get soon.

A friend of mine is getting x3 Carrion Empire boxes, and I have been enlisted to help him sell off extra models, and do some conversions he wants done to his FEC army he will be getting in the end.  Turns out... Warp Lightning Cannons, Doomwheeels, and even the new Bomberdier are all going for around $18 on ebay these days, but Stormfiends are still worth a lot.  So... instead of getting a single skaven half of one of the boxes, I can choose out the skaven engines instead by not using any stormfiends as they cover the cost of two engines on their own more or less.

This means I am going to get my hands on x4 Warp Lightning Cannons and x2 Warlocks for effectively free.

That caused me to reevaluate my list, and I realized that even though I wanted to make Jezzails conversions, a Warp Lightning Cannon is more reliable even than the x6 Jezzails I was going to have in my army.  New list has come from the ashes of all these changes, is it madness?

SKAVENTIDE

Arch-Warlock:  Deranged Inventor, Esoteric Warp Resonator

Warlock Bombardier

Warlock Bombardier

Thanquol on Boneripper: x4 Warpfire Projectors

x20 Clanrats

x20 Clanrats

x20 Clanrats

x4 Warp Lightning Cannons

x2 Warpfire Throwers

Endless Spell:  Soulsnare Shackles

 

That is an even 2000 points.  My intention is to be a 'gunline' list, and my main opponents are Daughter of Khaine, and soon FEC.  I realized that we can use the 'Deranged Inventor' to make the Bombardiers much safer to use More-More Doomrocket! as getting double 1's is much less likely.  Obviously we will do it still, but it should be much less.  Likewise, the second Bombardier can use a Warpstone Spark to also reroll hits.  That means my x4 Lightning Cannons AND x2 Bombardiers are 'reliably' shooting a bunch of long range death, while wrapped in a furry clanrat shield.  Meanwhile the Warpfire Thrower teams lurk in the clanrats to melt enemy units once they are done polishing off the clanrats.  Likewise Thanqoul melts things and also beefs up the frontline.  I figure Bombardiers and Lightning Cannons can focus on things like Cauldrons of Blood, Zombie Dragons, or even support heroes or small elite unit... freeing up all of my glorious warp fire from Thanquol and the weapon teams to vaporize large horde units like Witches and Ghouls.

Is this madness?  And is there any reason to use Clans Skryre and Acolytes as battleline?  I was tempted because the poison wind globes are more dakka... but I would end up with less bodies.  That said... my intention is for the clanrats to die to clear a way for weapon teams anyways... I am not sure the extra bodies are worth the loss in dakka.

I really like you list but @Skreech Verminkingmade me notice that the lack of bodies can be a problem vs stronger battlelines,what about this:

 

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
Warlock Bombardier (100)
Warlock Bombardier (100)
Verminlord Warpseer (260)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

War Machines
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 166

Edited February 28, 2019 by Noit

[5kaven5lave]

Quick question about Jezzails if anyone has any, what would form a decent screen for them without blocking their line of sight? Would Clanrats / Acolytes form a buffer while allowing the Jezzails to fire freely? I’m guessing anything bigger would probably block them but I don’t have the models. 

[Gwendar]

39 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Quick question about Jezzails if anyone has any, what would form a decent screen for them without blocking their line of sight? Would Clanrats / Acolytes form a buffer while allowing the Jezzails to fire freely? I’m guessing anything bigger would probably block them but I don’t have the models. 

I've never had a single issue due to how true LoS works. I've always screened jezzails with Clanrats. Even with Stormfiends (who have gaps that things behind it can see through) I have no problems.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Gwendar

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm eagerly awaiting the last of my 80 gutter runners for my Clan Eshin army (which now I'm thinking of using a plain Grey Seer instead of the Screaming Bell, since apparently there's a relic he can take for Battleshock Immunity?).

But in the mean time I'm wondering about Clan Moulder.  Those HellPit Abominations seem just really really nasty!  Anyone given those a whirl yet?  Is taking more than 1 advisable?   The Moulder Rat Ogres also seem pretty solid and deadly.  On par with Bullgors and pairs of axes, though even a little better.  Or are masses of tiny rat swarms and giant rats needed to run a sufficient Moulder army?