AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Drcrabs]

@Ineffectual Clawlord I didn't think of it as too much close range when I first made the list as I just put a bunch of stuff together that I liked but I think you're on to something here about the redundancy. I haven't bought the 4th ratling gun and no work on acolyte conversions have been attempted by me yet so that gives me 300 points to play with but unfortunately I'm not sure what do with it other then maybe 6 Jezzails for 280?

I was going to play some smaller scale variants of that list anyways in the 1,000-1,500 point range to get more familiar with the army as a whole and see what works best for me.  I'm definitely going to go over that Ignax Scale as a replacement for the Skavenbrew for sure. After testing I may even scrap the ratling guns all together but they were always lore favorite of mine so who knows. Thanks for the helpful advice, much appreciated!

 

Edit: I just looked up the Ignax Scales and that item is pretty good! That save will indeed help him keep alive!

Edited December 19, 2019 by Drcrabs

[Gwendar]

@Ineffectual Clawlord Maaaan... I haven't use an AW  + BW in what feels like years, though it's only been since a couple months before our Tome. I may try to find a way to bust that out in some way again. I don't run double Bell though, so it would be a bit less effective.. not sure if it has a place in my Magic list, as I would have to drop 20 Clanrats, but would gain another 40 points for Vermintide, giving me 11 casts with 5 Endless Spells. Maybe I'll run it this Sunday against Sylvaneth 😉

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (320)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
Verminlord Corruptor (280)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
Verminlord Deceiver (320)
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Chain Warp Lightning
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Vermintide (40)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127
 

 

[TALegion]

Sup, everyone. I'm looking into starting Skaven and have little background on them. Can I get a sanity check on this list? I'm mostly interested in seeing if there's any obvious improvements that could be made.

 

Quote

Allegiance: Skaventide
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Overseer of Destruction
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Warpseer (320)
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122

EDIT:
I'm also interested in running a warpcog convocation. It brings the list down to a much more reasonable 6 drops. Also, I love warp-lightning cannons and this seems like the most effective way to get the most out of them.

Quote

Allegiance: Skaventide
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Artefact: Esoteric Warp Resonator
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Arkhspark Voltik (60)
Arkhspark Voltik (60)
Warpcog Convocation (60)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by TALegion

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Darkhan With every change of our rules I always break out an updated list of my alpha strike stormvermin list using the gnawbomb method. This is what I have at the moment.

Spoiler

Deathmaster (100)
- Artefact : Gnawbomb
Grey Seer (140)
- Artefact : Skavenbrew
- Lore of Ruin : Death Frenzy
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin : Skitterleap
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Incredible Agility
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait : Verminous Valour
UNITS
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd & Shield
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
BATTALIONS
Claw-horde (180)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Extra Command Point (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

The goal is to get the stormvermin wherever you need to cause as much chaos as possible. With All-out-attack (re-rolls 1 to hit), +30 bonus, +1 attack from clawlord and +1 attack from skavenbrew, I can safely say that I have tons of fun. Truly, the spice is in Death Frenzy because unlike  alpha strike lists for other armies, skaven can retaliate harshly even if the initial turn for you is a big whiff. Some would still argue that Monks are cheaper and the better choice for list building, but I get an excuse to play stormvermin to their fullest potential. Fully painted, good-looking models doing work is satisfaction enough (for now). 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@TALegion I like your moxy. Big fan of the double cannons. Go get 'em.

Some from-the-hip pointers:

-The vigordust injector has really only the jezzails to get the most benefit and after the effects of MMMWP and the injector, there won't be too many left after the first use of them. With the Archwarlock you can afford to have some fun with artifacts (personally I like to go the un-killable route with Ignax's Scales artifact, Warp lightning shield from the spell lore and the Verminous Valor command trait).

-Death Frenzy doesn't seem to have any effective targets for your current list since your prize shooting. Perhaps Warpgale from the lore? Might stave off a charge or two to get more chances with shooting. Or maybe Skitterleap? Its then possible to send a hero with the spell and the jezzails through the gnawholes for a good angle on a target and the chance to use the warpstone sparks for extra damage.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

@TALegion Your list is what I'd call pretty iconic (Thanquol, Clanrats, lots of Skryre), and a lot of people will naturally gravitate towards this.  There are some problems:

a) Thanquol needs endless spells. His warscroll spell is flat out bad, and you don't want to waste a +2 wizard that costs 400 pt.

b) Cannons have a niche, which is shooting - to hit targets (e.g. Hagg Narr shrine with gryph feather charm is useless to target with Jezzails) and high price monsters, especially ethereal ones. The problem is that  2 and an Engineer sets you back 460 pt, while over the course of 4 turns (always overloading one, each lasting two turns) and always rolling 1s for your power level, you'll do 60 MW. Realistically, you'll have nothing worthwhile to shoot first turn and not always roll 1s, so half that seems likely. Investing that much leaves you very vulnerable against hordes and rush armies.

c) You need more bodies. 60 Clanrats just don't cut it with the amount of damage many fast armies can put out. If you get double turned, the game ends before you had your first real go.

d) Overseer of Destruction is only worth it if you plan to bring at least 3 Ratlings (preferably 4). They are the only weapon team that profits from this trait, which GW could have written down in the tome instead of this confusing keyword jungle.

e) Warpcog in mixed Skaven: I just can't see a place for it. Traditionally, what it has been used for  was to provide a 1-drop alpha strike for your 9 fiends (it was risky, with a potential high reward). This isn't possible anymore. In mixed lists, you pay too dearly for the little benefit it provides, as almost everything is either grotesquly overtaxed, or has little to no effect. Arkhspark Voltik is the only worthwile one, as it makes your WLC somewhat reliable, but still not worth that amount of points. (Apologies to our Doomwheel aficionados, but I won't pay 320 pt tax  for +3 to all moves).

These points out of the way, here is what I would run while keeping the theme and original list as intact as possible:

Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
40 x Clanrats (200)
40 x Clanrats (200)
20 x Clanrats (120)
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
15 x Skryre Acolytes (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

That's 1900 points, for the rest you want endless spells. With 100pt you can afford either WL Vortex or Geminids + Vermintide, whatever tickles your fancy.  I do have an irrational dislike towards the Vortex, but there are a lot of people who had good success with and enjoy using it.  If you do, Staff of rightful supremacy is a decent artefact choice as it allows an automatic dispell to move the location.

How to build Thanquol? That really depends on how many hordes and/or strike first/last armies you face. My advice is to magnetize the weapons, so you can test and change freely when changing builds.

Death Frenzy or Plague? Dependent on the Thanquol equipment and your typical opponents. DF is a good damage spell even with only 40 Clanrats (6.4 avg vs 4+ save, losing their size bonuses as early as possible), and can be a possible deterrent or at least draw out unbinds. I'd prefer it, unless you mainly fight OBR.

Good luck with this, may you gnaw on many bones and suck the sweet marrow of your enemies lifes!

Edited December 21, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord
Spelling. One day I will properly learn this language.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

I initially missed that the exploding 6s on Monks also apply to the staves. This really changed my perspective on the unit, and it appears to actually be a buff for them. Blades and Staves kept their original archetype, meaning that Blades become better the more you assume goes wrong.

The key point is that you can buff Staves very easily. Vigordust is perfect for it, as for once the +1 to charge isn't wasted. With it you have a unit effectively hitting on 2+/2+ (exploding to wound is arithmetically a +1 to wound), with 2" 25mm bases and 3 attacks on the charge. A 2+ to hit is also an obvious candidate for the generic CA All-out-attack.

Assuming you get 30 models in, which shouldn't be that hard with +2 to charge, this results in:

vs. 3+ avg 24 damage, vs. 6+ 61.

Compared to the previous Stave spec, that's -22% damage on the charge, -12% not charging. Comared to Blades this means + 20%. (All of this assuming Vigordust buff).

The downside is that with only 19 models left, your damage goes down to:

vs 3+ 6, vs 6+ 14

Do I need a Furnace, i.e. how do I buff most efficiently?

 

Vigordust + 25%, + re 1s to hit  +47%

Filth + 28%

Rabid +34%

Vigordust  + re 1s + Rabid: 100%

This means that you pay 200pt for an additional 50% increase from the base value (on a 3+ prayer though), which certainly is an option, particularly as an alternative to a second Bell. Given how quickly this setup loses damage though, I would only consider it in a 2-Monk list, which will struggle quite a bit with certain opponents like OBR.

[Kirjava13]

2 hours ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

One day I will properly learn this language.

Mate can I ask what your native language is? Because you seem to have got a pretty damn good handle on English!

[TALegion]

@Ineffectual Clawlord @Riff_Raff_Rascal Wow, thanks a lot for the feedback guys. That's exactly the type of info that I was looking to hear. I really appreciate the advice.

I think I'll hold off on the double cannons for now - that'll give me the opportunity to explore more different models. I'll try a second cannon later.

I've heard people say that they don't think Thanquol is worth the points. I want to take him anyway, since I think he's just cool, but may I ask why people think he's not very usable? I figured that 4 warpfire projectors would allow him to take out most units with 1-2 wounds per model. Also, the +2 to cast (with maybe +1 from a gnawhole) gives him a great chance at getting off high-cast spells.

EDIT:

I just read the FAQ for the first time. Regarding Thanquol's warpfire projectors, it says:

Quote

Q: If Thanquol on Boneripper has more than 1 Warpfire Projector, can he make 1 attack with each one? For example, if he had 4, would he be able to make 4 Warpfire Projectors attacks and roll 4 dice for each model in the target unit each time?
A: No.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, what I said above is incorrect? If he has 4 warpfire projectors, he does not get to do 4 dice per model within 8 inches? E.g. If there are 5 models within 8 inches in a unit, he has 4 warpfire projectors, he'll still only roll 5 dice (rather than 20)? In that case, would it not be best to only do 1 projector and 3 braziers virtually every time?

Tbh, this kinda killed my interest in the model. I thought he was a pure death machine with those things.

Edited December 22, 2019 by TALegion

[MisterJoshua]

@TALegion No, you were right the first time. The weapon profile says you roll x dice for the warpfire attack so with 4 throwers you’re rolling 4 dice per model. The faq is because people were trying to roll 4 dice and attack 4 times! I think it caused more confusion than anything.

[TALegion]

4 hours ago, MisterJoshua said:

@TALegion No, you were right the first time. The weapon profile says you roll x dice for the warpfire attack so with 4 throwers you’re rolling 4 dice per model. The faq is because people were trying to roll 4 dice and attack 4 times! I think it caused more confusion than anything.

Oh, that's great then. Thanks for the clarification. 

[Gwendar]

Hey everyone, played another game against Sylvaneth today, this time with the Magic List. Note, I hate @Ineffectual Clawlord for making me want to take BW because it didn't go off a single time which was pretty sad... but what can you do. This is still my absolute favorite Skaven list to play... at least when my spells go off 😉

A shame Master of Magic can't go on the Deceiver to make sure Dreaded Skitterleap goes off.. but getting off that potential 6 MW's and shutting down the charge on an important unit is important too.
 

 

[fishwaffle2232]

Hey guys. 

Was having a look at doomwheel conversions the other day and now have a need to play a doomwheel list. 

I'm thinking of running 3 in a battalion with the Whrylblade and arkhspark. Ill take 60-80 clanrats as well and maybe bell of doom for battleshock immunity and vermintide or balewind with the last 40 points. 

Not gonna be competitive but I actually don't think it would be terrible, has the potential to dish out some decent shooting and chip mortal wounds.

Anyone given a list like this a go. 

 

Edited: formatting 

Edited December 23, 2019 by fishwaffle2232

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@fishwaffle2232 I like the Doomwheels. A lot. My opponets love them too. A little too much in fact. I say run as many as you can. I'm curious how on earth you're playing anything else outside the battalion (since its so taxing on points) but more power to ya. I have run the Whyrlbade + arkhspark before, its the most efficient on points if you want the doomwheels. That said, I was crazy enough to run DOUBLE whyrlbade because I have 4 of the hamster wheels and its the only way to play them all with the +3 move. Most fun I've had in a while.

I hope you've discovered the nuance to the +3 move? This includes your engineer as well.  I went on a rant a month ago how this battalion actually works if you can find it in this thread.

[fishwaffle2232]

20 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

@fishwaffle2232 I like the Doomwheels. A lot. My opponets love them too. A little too much in fact. I say run as many as you can. I'm curious how on earth you're playing anything else outside the battalion (since its so taxing on points) but more power to ya. I have run the Whyrlbade + arkhspark before, its the most efficient on points if you want the doomwheels. That said, I was crazy enough to run DOUBLE whyrlbade because I have 4 of the hamster wheels and its the only way to play them all with the +3 move. Most fun I've had in a while.

I hope you've discovered the nuance to the +3 move? This includes your engineer as well.  I went on a rant a month ago how this battalion actually works if you can find it in this thread.

Good to hear ill have a dig back and find it. 

I've actually liked taking 1 in some of my other lists and it tends to do quite well, but usually doesn't last past turn 2-3. 

The only prob with 2 whyrlblade is the storm fiend tax.  So damn expensive, and I don't particularly like them in units of 3. 

The movement bonus is nice definitely. Sounds like a list people will look at and think is cool and different, before getting run over. 

[gronnelg]

@Riff_Raff_RascalIs there anything more to the +3 move?

[Coyote]

Hey there - Question on targeting unit cohesion-

So I’ve ordered myself the Warpgnaw Verminlord- and am thinking about the Splinter Screech spell.

I’d “like” to be able to target a model - say a Dryad in a conga line - and eliminate their unit cohesion, taking out more models.

How would that work?  I target in the Hero phase... can they “pile in” if not in combat?  When does their cohesion occur on my turn?  Movement? Battleshock?

[Skreech Verminking]

13 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Hey there - Question on targeting unit cohesion-

So I’ve ordered myself the Warpgnaw Verminlord- and am thinking about the Splinter Screech spell.

I’d “like” to be able to target a model - say a Dryad in a conga line - and eliminate their unit cohesion, taking out more models.

How would that work?  I target in the Hero phase... can they “pile in” if not in combat?  When does their cohesion occur on my turn?  Movement? Battleshock?

At the end of the turn,

after the  battleshock phase.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[fishwaffle2232]

So after having a bit of a play around with some doomwheel lists I have landed on two that I like.

List 1

Spoiler

Warlock engineer

Bombadier

Grey seer on bell

40 clanrats

20 clanrats x 2

3 x doomwheel

6x stormfiends

Soulscream bridge

List 2 

Spoiler

Warlock engineer

Bombadier

Arch Warlock

40 clanrats

20 clanrats x 2

3 x doomwheel

doomflayer

3 x stormfiends

WLC

warpcog convocation

whyrlblade and arkhspark

I like them both but I think list 1 is definitely the more competitive of the two. list two spends too much to get the battalion and alhtough the +3 move is really good im not sure its better than 6 stormfiends and a bridge. I actually think list 1 could do pretty well and it wont care about all the drops because it can go second or first effectively. 

I want to play around with it a bit but I suspect the large base size of the wheels might actually allow them to block off some objectives.

 

what do you guys think?

Edited December 23, 2019 by fishwaffle2232
Formatting from phone...

[Gwendar]

@fishwaffle2232 I actually don't mind that 1st one... if I felt like buying and painting 2 more Doomwheel's I'd try it myself. Doomwheels shouldn't be underestimated in shooting either; those overloaded shots can easily murder support heroes and having 3 of them focus something bigger down is nice. And yeah, as a blocker they wouldn't be half bad, though I think usually you want to be running over stuff and shooting than being a screen. 

That's what the Clanrats are for 😉


@Coyote like Skreech said, it's at the end of a turn, after Battleshock. But no, with it being your turn they wouldn't be able to pile in unless they're already in combat.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Gwendar

[fishwaffle2232]

@GwendarI'm hoping to make it a bit of a hobby project. I'm wanting all my doomwheels to look different and i'm already thinking about trying to make a monster bike type doomwheel. 

regarding blocking objectives I was more thinking about getting into hard to reach objectives and blocking them off from stuff trying to cap it back. E.g an objective in enemy backfield.

You are right about the shooting too, just a little swingy. I think that they could potentially function well by themselves which is a cool prospect, being able to hassle your opponent and force them to deal with the wheels instead of the 6 stormfiends. 

I haven't pulled the trigger on buying the extra wheels yet though. I think I came to the internet to talk me out of it. Seems to have backfired a bit though haha.

[Gwendar]

26 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

regarding blocking objectives I was more thinking about getting into hard to reach objectives and blocking them off from stuff trying to cap it back. E.g an objective in enemy backfield.

You are right about the shooting too, just a little swingy. I think that they could potentially function well by themselves which is a cool prospect, being able to hassle your opponent and force them to deal with the wheels instead of the 6 stormfiends. 

I haven't pulled the trigger on buying the extra wheels yet though. I think I came to the internet to talk me out of it. Seems to have backfired a bit though haha.

Right, I understand what you're saying with that. But keep in mind that Clanrats have a threat range of 14" if you auto-run them 6 (+2 from bell-ringer) which isn't bad. Retreat and charge is easily one of your best tools to retreat off an objective and charge onto a lesser guarded one. Just some stuff to keep in mind.

@Riff_Raff_Rascal almost talked me into it awhile back.. him and @Skreech Verminking (who likes taking a true vermintide of Clanrats in his lists) are easily the most insane and Skaven-like around for some of the stuff they run 😉

[fishwaffle2232]

Oh yea I'm well aware of how good clan rats and their hit and run tactics are. 

I'll keep you guys posted. Hopefully this doesn't become a dead project and I pull the trigger on it. 

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Oh yea I'm well aware of how good clan rats and their hit and run tactics are. 

I'll keep you guys posted. Hopefully this doesn't become a dead project and I pull the trigger on it. 

Yeah, they are my favorite unit, and for their cheap price they are the perfect choice to perform the reverse Charge move.

And yes as stupid as it sounds, that strategy really does exists.

and well it’s basically a abusive use of the charge move, by literally just moving the first model towards a enemy unit, while the rest of the unit runs up onto the backline objective of your enemy.

works fantastically, since most people aren’t aware that this move works or is even legal to do.

 

[mmimzie]

This retreat ability combine well with our powerful magic and shooting phase. As you only need to open small gaps in enemy lines to see you sneaking into objectives.

 

Clanrats are also no jokes in combat, and currently I run my ~160 clan rats army pretty well, using double death frenzy to do damage.