So, did Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth Deepkin sell poorly

[Kramer]

18 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. Stormcast are all roided up bros 8ft tall. That's not a realistic body type for me. They're athletic because they slaughter people and go to war. 

And elves! Almost in every universe: Taller, skinnier, a bit fragile and just a different body type. 

Also closer to ‘realism’ comparison would be the marauders. Skimpily dressed, huge muscles, and that’s without a god building a body for them. 

[kenshin620]

I'm pretty sure the snake DoK models alone are selling more than the entire freeguild range. And thats why they retired the emprie knights!

 

[Overread]

@Nos I totally get your point, but lets be honest. Pretty much every single faction suffers from this same affliction. Basically most armies are identical warriors at least within each unit type (in fact the Doomfires are considerably larger in body and yet are supposed to be frailer because they are male). Part of it is simply that its not cost effective for GW to produce such huge variety within the units themselves for the most part. Even highly mutated groups like Nurgle and Genestealer Cultists still retain an overall similar structure underneath so that parts can swap around and so that they achieve a rough singular appearance. 

Also don't forget if you look at armed forces, esp those of say the old British style or the old British Police force then a large enough nation can achieve quite a unified appearance, esp once trained, equipped the same and if the gene pool itself is not as filled in with alternative races of peoples. 

 

Plus there is a lore reason - Morathi has to create bodies at least for the first generations to get souls torn from Slaanesh. So to get the race going she had to craft them bodies and make them live. As a result chances are the initial gene pool is quite restricted for them and nearly any new Aelfs. This should ease off with time once they are living as normal (even Idoneth breed, they just have no soul/very weak souls and thus have to hunt and feed). Sometimes her creations go wrong and the souls most influenced by the chaos taint end up like herself - twisted and mutated. Giving birth to Khinerai and Melusai (Bloodwracks are a rapid body mutation caused by a bite from one of Morathi's crown of serpents upon her head). One can thus surmise that other mutations might be possible given time and if Morathi continues to experiment. 

 

[Overread]

@Nos I totally get your point, but lets be honest. Pretty much every single faction suffers from this same affliction. Basically most armies are identical warriors at least within each unit type (in fact the Doomfires are considerably larger in body and yet are supposed to be frailer because they are male). Part of it is simply that its not cost effective for GW to produce such huge variety within the units themselves for the most part. Even highly mutated groups like Nurgle and Genestealer Cultists still retain an overall similar structure underneath so that parts can swap around and so that they achieve a rough singular appearance. 

Also don't forget if you look at armed forces, esp those of say the old British style or the old British Police force then a large enough nation can achieve quite a unified appearance, esp once trained, equipped the same and if the gene pool itself is not as filled in with alternative races of peoples. 

 

Plus there is a lore reason - Morathi has to create bodies at least for the first generations to get souls torn from Slaanesh. So to get the race going she had to craft them bodies and make them live. As a result chances are the initial gene pool is quite restricted for them and nearly any new Aelfs. This should ease off with time once they are living as normal (even Idoneth breed, they just have no soul/very weak souls and thus have to hunt and feed). Sometimes her creations go wrong and the souls most influenced by the chaos taint end up like herself - twisted and mutated. Giving birth to Khinerai and Melusai (Bloodwracks are a rapid body mutation caused by a bite from one of Morathi's crown of serpents upon her head). One can thus surmise that other mutations might be possible given time and if Morathi continues to experiment. 

 

[Yoshiya]

I thought the melusai were purposeful creations not mistakes? Made in her image not corrupted into it. That's why they're highly esteemed bodyguards not mutants to be looked down on.

Regarding the main topic, I'm the only person I've seen here with an IDK army (1k atm) and no one has DoK. However I also noticed IDK boxes disappearing from the shelves and given that it is more of a hobby than a game here (still only three books released in Japanese, seriously GW how do you expect people to buy in if they can't even understand the rules ?) so I think it's more a case that they just aren't coming in to play.

DoK on the other hand just doesn't seem to be selling and I think the high prices are the issue. Markup is already pretty big here (a start collecting costs in the region of £75-80 depending on current exchange rates) and when your base unit that you need a lot of was already expensive before mark up you immediately price people out.

Also, chaos is very popular in my store so them both being Order works against them ultimately.

[Overread]

Morathi detests her mutated form which is why she weaves powerful magic to try and avoid appearing as it, hence her nearly normal form, though even then she has bronze like wings. Her beast form is her true appearance now which she tends to take on when her emotions run high or when she's injured or otherwise loses control. So she has to use magic and concentration to retain her aelf appearance now;. 

Melusai and Khinerai are certainly not looked down upon and are the secret elite within her armies, however they are both still mutated aelves. A hint of chaos has twisted them in body, but not in mind or soul as such. They are made in part in their creators image, but my overall impression is that they likely started out as a failure that Morathi has found a use for.

 

 

What's most interesting about Daughters and most of the Aelves is that because of how they are born they are now old-race souls trapped within a very new race body and race in itself. Of course they've still had many generations since the time when Sigmar and his allies first forced Chaos out and secured the Realms. So by the time of the fall th chaos and then the Age of Sigmar there has been long enough that we should be seeing social changes appearing. Khinerai and Melusai appear to continue to require Morathi's continued influence to be made anew  - that or she keeps any breeders locked up within Hag Nar and only releases troops (possibly infertile or incapable of breeding with normal unchanged male aelves). 

 

The codex also hints that there are more forms -- certainly of Melusai . 

[Scythian]

DoK are monster sellers. The GW website is constantly getting in and running out of stock of witches and cauldrons. They are a hugely popular army right now. 

[Rekmeister]

11 hours ago, Nos said:

The fact is that I think they are for multiple reasons, some legitimate others entirely not, too embarrassing to collect.  They're a real statement to collect and it's far from being an unambiguously positive statement that you're making with them.

So, as a DoK player, I just have to respond. Firstly, this is a forum for hobbyists, it's not really the place to make sweeping insults about large swathes of the community.  I hope no-one minds that I take a comment to address this and offer a counter-point.

Now, I never saw the need to inject 21st century gender politics into the hobby. I just bought and collected the army because dark elves are great, snakes added something to the aesthetic, and the faction is strong as hell. So when I see an in depth comment about the models not looking real enough, and claims that it is a 'statement' to collect and assemble/paint the only all female army in the game, I'm obviously rustled. Somehow collecting the female army, irregardless of it being female, is a problematic act of senile sexism? So I'm going to go ahead and offer an alternate opinion, as someone who was lucky enough to study feminism extensively, on the matter of female representation and the Daughters of Khaine.

You seem to imply, paradoxically,  that your fellow hobbyists are partaking in secondhand sexism when they make the conscious decision to field the only all female army in the game. Do you see my issue with that? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein there must be sexism to rally against, so it is created by assessing the DoK product line not on that which people judge Warhammer armies - the quality of the sculpts, rules, and lore - but instead on the line of reasoning that the models are offensive if they are not accurate analogues to the various shapes and sizes of modern people. To assess a Warhammer army on the diversity of body types - and to expect that all product lines ought to operate under the caveat that boxes must include body shapes X, Y, and Z - is to ignore the quality and dynamism of the models themselves. It's also worth noting that this argument about body diversity is never used to suggest there is something wrong with buying male models, it is a scrutiny saved solely for female models.

Then there is the question of the right to escapism. If I, a man, want to live out a testosterone fuelled fantasy through playing warhammer; I can play Khorne. If I want to feel smart, I could play Lizards or Zombies. Point is, I have access to lots of models that look characteristically not like me. They are big and muscly, or not even human at all, and I get to enjoy the fantasy of commanding something much more exciting than I am. The point is the escape; delving into something not real. If female models are expected first to take into account modern day sensitivities regarding body representation, and to only secondly be an effective means of fantasy and escape; then the quality of the entire product can be severely hamstrung solely because people have asked that female models adhere to a strict set of perceived morals.

If I lived in a society where my gender isn't portrayed much in Warhammer; I would rather see a high quality model who looks like they mean business, with powerful rules and a good story to get behind, than I would a model of a guy who shares the same physical imperfections as me and my peers.

I hope you appreciate that this is an exchange of ideas, and even if we disagree; we can still respect one another and be civil. I hope some of what I have said has eased up your opinion of those who collect DoK.

[Lord Veshnakar]

4 hours ago, Scythian said:

DoK are monster sellers. The GW website is constantly getting in and running out of stock of witches and cauldrons. They are a hugely popular army right now. 

I work at one of the highest US sales volume stores and they informed us that they had issues with both the witch elf and the cauldron of blood mould and they needed to retool it. That’s why they had such terrible stock issues on both of those items. I was actually informed yesterday that this was completed so stock should normalize now, at least in the US.

[Kyriakin]

14 hours ago, Nos said:

My wife or female friends would have no issue with me painting a bunch of lithe, athletic women as part of a more representative force of females but to have nothing but one female shape and aesthetic being the standard bearer for women in AOS is really pretty weak.

DoK are ELVES, not humans.

Elves (both male and female) were pretty much always portrayed as slender and svelte within their ancient Germanic mythological roots, as well as almost all contemporary fantasy.

I can't believe we are talking about an army of mass-murdering elves in a fantasy game not being "representative".

[Nos]

3 minutes ago, Overread said:

@Nos I totally get your point, but lets be honest. Pretty much every single faction suffers from this same affliction. Basically most armies are identical warriors at least within each unit type (in fact the Doomfires are considerably larger in body and yet are supposed to be frailer because they are male). Part of it is simply that its not cost effective for GW to produce such huge variety within the units themselves for the most part. Even highly mutated groups like Nurgle and Genestealer Cultists still retain an overall similar structure underneath so that parts can swap around and so that they achieve a rough singular appearance. 

Also don't forget if you look at armed forces, esp those of say the old British style or the old British Police force then a large enough nation can achieve quite a unified appearance, esp once trained, equipped the same and if the gene pool itself is not as filled in with alternative races of peoples. 

 

Plus there is a lore reason - Morathi has to create bodies at least for the first generations to get souls torn from Slaanesh. So to get the race going she had to craft them bodies and make them live. As a result chances are the initial gene pool is quite restricted for them and nearly any new Aelfs. This should ease off with time once they are living as normal (even Idoneth breed, they just have no soul/very weak souls and thus have to hunt and feed). Sometimes her creations go wrong and the souls most influenced by the chaos taint end up like herself - twisted and mutated. Giving birth to Khinerai and Melusai (Bloodwracks are a rapid body mutation caused by a bite from one of Morathi's crown of serpents upon her head). One can thus surmise that other mutations might be possible given time and if Morathi continues to experiment. 

 

Thank you for your considered response.

I don't disagree with what you've said to be honest, it's more that I feel in relation to issues which are societally sensitive or problematic it's important to try and craft a lore or narrative which doesn't perpetuate those issues. Especially in fantastical fiction in which you can make literally anything possible. I think it's a lost opportunity is all. I frequently ask my female pals what they think about DOK and the response is always the same. Love the vibe but the realisation is poor.

And it's not like GW don't have previous with it. The steady redacting of much of the aspects of Slaanesh fiction and aesthetic which formerly portrayed kink or trans gender aspects as being twisted or evil, even if by accident, is a clear attempt from GW to be more aware of how their product can interact with the identities of its audience outside of just being a commercial product.

[Nos]

4 hours ago, Rekmeister said:

So, as a DoK player, I just have to respond. Firstly, this is a forum for hobbyists, it's not really the place to make sweeping insults about large swathes of the community.  I hope no-one minds that I take a comment to address this and offer a counter-point.

Now, I never saw the need to inject 21st century gender politics into the hobby. I just bought and collected the army because dark elves are great, snakes added something to the aesthetic, and the faction is strong as hell. So when I see an in depth comment about the models not looking real enough, and claims that it is a 'statement' to collect and assemble/paint the only all female army in the game, I'm obviously rustled. Somehow collecting the female army, irregardless of it being female, is a problematic act of senile sexism? So I'm going to go ahead and offer an alternate opinion, as someone who was lucky enough to study feminism extensively, on the matter of female representation and the Daughters of Khaine.

You seem to imply, paradoxically,  that your fellow hobbyists are partaking in secondhand sexism when they make the conscious decision to field the only all female army in the game. Do you see my issue with that? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy wherein there must be sexism to rally against, so it is created by assessing the DoK product line not on that which people judge Warhammer armies - the quality of the sculpts, rules, and lore - but instead on the line of reasoning that the models are offensive if they are not accurate analogues to the various shapes and sizes of modern people. To assess a Warhammer army on the diversity of body types - and to expect that all product lines ought to operate under the caveat that boxes must include body shapes X, Y, and Z - is to ignore the quality and dynamism of the models themselves. It's also worth noting that this argument about body diversity is never used to suggest there is something wrong with buying male models, it is a scrutiny saved solely for female models.

Then there is the question of the right to escapism. If I, a man, want to live out a testosterone fuelled fantasy through playing warhammer; I can play Khorne. If I want to feel smart, I could play Lizards or Zombies. Point is, I have access to lots of models that look characteristically not like me. They are big and muscly, or not even human at all, and I get to enjoy the fantasy of commanding something much more exciting than I am. The point is the escape; delving into something not real. If female models are expected first to take into account modern day sensitivities regarding body representation, and to only secondly be an effective means of fantasy and escape; then the quality of the entire product can be severely hamstrung solely because people have asked that female models adhere to a strict set of perceived morals.

If I lived in a society where my gender isn't portrayed much in Warhammer; I would rather see a high quality model who looks like they mean business, with powerful rules and a good story to get behind, than I would a model of a guy who shares the same physical imperfections as me and my peers.

I hope you appreciate that this is an exchange of ideas, and even if we disagree; we can still respect one another and be civil. I hope some of what I have said has eased up your opinion of those who collect DoK.

As I said very carefully they are not wrong or immoral, but they are problematic. Politics exist within everything. It is not injected, it is latent. People make these things and people paint and play with them and discuss them, they don't suddenly exist within a non political vacuum. The entire reason GW's fictions even exist is political satire. AOS and 40K and all associated fictions have grown out of narratives that were expressly, darkly comical political commentary.

The thing about being a guy is that we are in a position to often ignore these things because they don't affect us so we can choose to ignore it. But for women this is less the case.

This debate is a good example actually. You obviously feel prickled because you just want to play your game-your "right to escapism" as it were, you don't want to have to defend your choices or feel personally judged, just play!  There have in fact been numerous sensitive and affronted responses to my observations which never in fact called anyone a perve or sexist or mysogonist or anything of the sort. My mere questioning of some of the concepts though has been enough to make people feel judged somehow,

Imagine now that you're my wife or one of her pals. You just want to play a game and immerse yourself in AOS, but then you're presented with this faction who reiterates many of the multiple issues about the idealised female and the issues that go with  it-lithe, bold, sexual, provocative, thin, not wearing many clothes, but also irrational, shrieking, aggressive, power hungry, serpent like, dangerous-what about their right to escapism from those tired and relentless cliches that cause incrrdible angst and pressure to women the world over, ideas that feed into genuine persecution, violence, oppression and judgement? 

Like I say I'm not saying it's immoral or wrong and I'm not saying anyone is bad for playing DOK. But in a fiction largely devoid of female representation-almost completely  so before DOK and female stormcast-the world is far bigger and uglier and more  persistent in its messaging about women for anyone to claim that an all female fiction of sexy psycho elves can just be seen in a vacuum by everyone.

Nor of course, can any other faction! It's just that most other factions don't collide with the political themes that DOK invite by their very nature. They are a rare example where one persons escapism is another persons manifestation of societal pressure and judgement.

There's not many other factions I can think of (I may be wrong of course) where this is the case. Someone mentioned the Stormcast earlier for example. That's a poor analogy because there is little in society which demands that you be eight feet tall and serve in endless war in the name of a God or Cause you sacrifice your personality and literally break yourself unendingly for. There are multiple crises in masculinity but that's not a very prevalent one. Stormcast are not about being blokes, even when it was just guys represented in the range. They're about the line between devotion and slavish autocratic obedience, piety and fanaticism. 

But there is plenty in society which simultaneously promotes sexually  aggressive women in certain circumstances but chastises them for forthwrightness otherwise, that applauds bikinis and loincloths but only if you're a certain weight, size and build, that demand women be biddable and dominant simultaneously-basically multiple aspects of who the DOK by virtue of their femininity are simultaneously condemned and applauded by society in respect to note or less every women's issue. As I said there are good things and bad things about the faction but hat they manifestly aren't is escapism for the females I've shown them too. They are the very reiteration of the political and cultural tensions they navigate daily. I would rather they didn't have to face that in the hobby if they didn't want to.

 

 

[Aeryenn]

18 hours ago, Nos said:

described in the fiction I would expect Witch Elves to look like Sprinters, muscular and powerful,

And who on earth would like to paint and watch those? 

[stratigo]

On 8/22/2018 at 4:04 PM, Nin Win said:

GW's annual report covers this period and while nothing is really mentioned as far as individual sales go, overall sales are way, way up.  So these two armies might have "sold poorly" compared to Imperial Knights, but great compared to other AoS releases.

Oh!  One thing they did mention was that sales of new releases made up a higher percentage of their sales than previous years.  So I guess that would include these two armies.

eh. Remember, GW has been releasing knew things on a much much larger scale than they have for years in the past year, so while it would include DoK and IDK, it also includes primaris, Death guard, new knights, new stormcast, new maggotkin, necromunda, etc, etc

 

18 hours ago, Nos said:

DOK put me off because you need a lot of gals, and they're pretty skimpily dressed, which means painting lots of flesh, which is hard to achieve effectivley at a consistent rate.

Also while they're not indecent or immoral I think they're still kind of immature in their realisation. Not in respect to their state of undress or sexualisation, but the absence of body types makes then essentially a clone of societally idealised women. My wife or female friends would have no issue with me painting a bunch of lithe, athletic women as part of a more representative force of females but to have nothing but one female shape and aesthetic being the standard bearer for women in AOS is really pretty weak.

To  be honest they're probably the party that appeals to me most. I love the idea of an army of women kicking ass and taking names. But it's not an army of women. It's an army of  one stereotype multiplied. It's almost like they're some kind of separate women race, like orcs.

There is no justifiable fiction for it either. You do not need to be a size 6 to be an athlete. To be honest that's part of the problem too. As described in the fiction I would expect Witch Elves to look like Sprinters, muscular and powerful, not a single body type who could get blown away in a strong wind.

The fact is that I think they are for multiple reasons, some legitimate others entirely not, too embarrassing to collect.  They're a real statement to collect and it's far from being an unambiguously positive statement that you're making with them.

limitation of slightly older kits, limitation of the molds gw likely based them off of.

 

Sadly your comments are gonna go off into the weeds of "DON'T MENTION ANY ISMS IN HOBBYING". The witch elf ascetic is mostly fine, but if I had a witch elf army, I would be a bit embarrassed to show a friend not already invested into the hobby. Without the context of their background, they are, indeed, crafted in a bit of a sophomoric way, and it isn't a huge leap to wonder about them. I think GW has done a good job sidestepping issues of female representation with the army while still remaining somewhat true to the older models (that were as bad as you imagine they were in their original incarnations), but you have to know what GW's doing with the army first.

[Carnelian]

9 minutes ago, Aryann said:

And who on earth would like to paint and watch those? 

I would

[Overread]

I'm ready and waiting for an army of Red Sonjas mixed with Amazonian archers with some barbarian men on the side

I mean GW could give us some beefier more muscled Aelves with twohanded swords!

 

Also the idea of Witch Aelves is that they are closer to acrobats than they are wrestlers, so they are not so much freakishly strong, but fast and lithe. So they dance around you and then you find out that your arm is gone, your heart missing and you're on the floor bleeding out and you only just rose your sword a moment ago to parry. The most muscular are the melusai who do look somewhat stronger in their core body. 

 

Of course at the size and scale they are a lot of the muscles are not shown because on such lithe models chances are they would start  to look more freakish than muscled. Think of it like comparing a normally muscled person to a body-builder. Throw on some clothing and a lot of that muscle tone is lost as well. 

[Nos]

58 minutes ago, Aryann said:

And who on earth would like to paint and watch those? 

Some of my friends, both male and female, me?

I dont understand the issue ?

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Aryann said:

And who on earth would like to paint and watch those? 

Plus they don‘t have huge secondary sexual organs and are depicted very athletic in all of their Current Artworks. Do not very sexist concerning that.

additionally we‘re arguing about a fictional race and whether they‘re depicted to wrong way: Just let the council of elven rights decide about that

 (srsly B R E AS T is considered a violation and therefor put in *****? WTF Anerican Dual morality?)

 

[hughwyeth]

31 minutes ago, Nos said:

Some of my friends, both male and female, me?

I dont understand the issue ?

Whilst i disagree with the OP, i think it's true there's a cliche in fantasy/scifi where females are sexualised and males are potrayed as strongmen. If you saw DoK in isolation, you could perhaps think this is part of that trend, but in the wider context where there are non-sexualised females in stormcast and other factions, and where the new design for DoK really doesn't emphasise sexuality at all,-it's a lot more about bloodlust- I don't think it's true at all.  

Would I be embarassed to show a DoK army to a female friend who didn't play? I don't think so- the most noticeable thing about them at first glance is the snake stuff and the duel wielding and the poses, not that they have an exposed midriff. 

[Yokai]

4 hours ago, Nos said:

Imagine now that you're my wife or one of her pals. You just want to play a game and immerse yourself in AOS, but then you're presented with this faction who reiterates many of the multiple issues about the idealised female and the issues that go with  it-lithe, bold, sexual, provocative, thin, not wearing many clothes, but also irrational, shrieking, aggressive, power hungry, serpent like, dangerous-what about their right to escapism from those tired and relentless cliches that cause incrrdible angst and pressure to women the world over, ideas that feed into genuine persecution, violence, oppression and judgement? 

Nonsense. The DOK are representative only for themselves - a fantasy murder-elf faction. The percieved problems are only arising from making them representative for something they are not.

Or, let me put it this way: why are all female athletic high-jumpers tall and slender in the olympics? Because they are selected for what they do best. No one calls them problematic because they do not represent all women in the world. Same with DOK: the witch elves look the way they do because they are selected among their kin for what they do best. You don't see the others because they are not the best to go to war with.

[Nos]

6 minutes ago, Yokai said:

Nonsense. The DOK are representative only for themselves - a fantasy murder-elf faction. The percieved problems are only arising from making them representative for something they are not.

Or, let me put it this way: why are all female athletic high-jumpers tall and slender in the olympics? Because they are selected for what they do best. No one calls them problematic because they do not represent all women in the world. Same with DOK: the witch elves look the way they do because they are selected among their kin for what they do best. You don't see the others because they are not the best to go to war with.

It's cool that you feel as though you can dispute my friends valid opinions as nonsense,  thanks for that!

[Nos]

6 minutes ago, Yokai said:

Nonsense. The DOK are representative only for themselves - a fantasy murder-elf faction. The percieved problems are only arising from making them representative for something they are not.

Or, let me put it this way: why are all female athletic high-jumpers tall and slender in the olympics? Because they are selected for what they do best. No one calls them problematic because they do not represent all women in the world. Same with DOK: the witch elves look the way they do because they are selected among their kin for what they do best. You don't see the others because they are not the best to go to war with.

It's cool that you feel as though you can dispute my friends valid opinions as nonsense,  thanks for that!

[Overread]

Perhaps we might all take a moment to step back and cool off a little? Last thing we want is for this to devolve into just a mud slinging match. Esp as several viewpoint being expressed are not personal viewpoints but our impressions of other peoples viewpoints.

 

Also @Nosthe way you presented your argument was, with the way you wrote it, not conveying feelings/thoughts that your friends had said but was closer sounding to perceptions you had on what their thoughts and viewpoint might be. 

[Yoshiya]

I mean using anecdotal evidence doesn't really help your cause. DOK are one of the few factions my wife likes as she doesn't go in for the whole muscular warriors with huge weapons thing that many of the factions ultimately fall into. Is her opinion any less valid than your friends? That's why it's best to leave anecdotal stuff out of these conversations because all that happens is things get personal (as it seems things are already starting to do so).

Either way I don't this is steering offtrack now and we'd do better to get back on it. You may think that DOK being problematic led to lose sales but as of yet no one has proved there even was lower sales for them which is OPs question.

[Nos]

10 minutes ago, Overread said:

Perhaps we might all take a moment to step back and cool off a little? Last thing we want is for this to devolve into just a mud slinging match. Esp as several viewpoint being expressed are not personal viewpoints but our impressions of other peoples viewpoints.

 

Also @Nosthe way you presented your argument was, with the way you wrote it, not conveying feelings/thoughts that your friends had said but was closer sounding to perceptions you had on what their thoughts and viewpoint might be. 

What does it matter whose opinion it is though? I've not stated anyone else's opinion is invalid or nonsense, I've not questioned their right to propose it.

I've simply made the observation that there are issues with the DOK that make them problematic in some aspects as a means of explaining why some people might not collect them, and the personal responses I've received are a pretty good indication of the fact that these issues are indeed as complex as I suggest. I take none of it back. I've not said anything personal or made any accusations unlike some.