Do we need another game system in AOS?

[kor]

Hey all!

The new Kill Team for 40K got  me thinking ... do we need another gaming/rules system using our already existing AOS minis?

We have Warhammer Quest and Shadespire with its own minis line and that's that (there's also that Khorne champions boardgame but that was really a one-of). 

Do people feel we need more to do with our minis? Maybe a Kill Team style game (ie open ended on a limited terrain, as opposed to WHQ scripted advancement) where bands of heroes clash in the ruins/jungles/deserts of the realms? but wouldn't that be a little bit too much like Shadespire?

Also the new Titanicus got me thinking about some crazy Godbeasts board game were each player controls miniatures representing creatures (constructs and gods as well) hundreds of feet tall and wide. That kind of game will not use our pre-existing miniatures of course.

Anyway - would love to hear what people think and maybe someone's guess/wishful thinking will be spot on  

[michu]

We have already our version of Kill Team - it's called Skirmish. Of course it's not that similar, because our skirmish is almost the same as normal AoS only with small warbands and no summoning (and some abilities doesn't scale well and are a little OP e.g. Branchwych), where Kill Team strays from regular 40k with rules like Initiative Phase, cover working in a different manner... But KT FAQ gave us hope for new version of skirmish.

[VBS]

I think many will agree with this, but a Kill Team version for AoS would be fantastic. It would only require a not so long book with alternative rules that deepen a AoS skirmish version (more than the one that currently exists).

This would cover all the skirmish/mordheim crowd (which is quite a bit, I believe) and would also be very different from Shadespire. WH Underworlds is a fundamentally different game (mechanics/rules), very rigid (warband building) and its inception aims to cover the competitive spectrum. I think Kill Team, Mordheim and skirmish of the like have a very different concept and thus appeal to a different crowd. I can see this happening basically due to demand, no so much effort required and Specialist Range has been reinvigorated the last couple of years.

 

Also, more in the wishful thinking side, I would love a War of the Ring version for AoS. I always thought there were some parallels between both (skirmish formations that work well in not so big battles but that suffer when too large) and AoS as a game would benefit immensely when using large collections.

I think there are plenty of gaming systems that can be adapted by just changing some rules (so a book) while maintaining the basics and minis/setting.   

[Nin Win]

40k and AoS are nearly compatible.  AoS: Skirmish works fine with 40k.  The Open War cards for one game work with the other.

I imagine Kill Team is pretty much compatible with AoS with very few changes.  There'd be a lot more melee and you'd need to come up with which basic infantry get to be in your force, but it'd likely work as is.  As would combining it's larger structure, injury rolls, specialists, learning skills and so on with AoS:Skirmish.

[Griffounet]

My short answer : No. We don't need it in the short term. AoS currently need a better balance between the 4 grand alliance (both on battltomes and minis) and to further flesh out the background. And, like @michu said before, we already have Skirmish which is... at least decent, at the moment.

Of course, in the medium & long run, I hope we will have a  "Mordheim-like" in AoS.  A Big box which would contain 2 bands, a campagn rules, a full set of terrain in a free-city (like hammerhall, for example) & a ssytem with renow/treasures/mercenary to hires.  But, if you want some skirmish and small battle settings at the moment, you can do it with both AoS Skirmish & Narrative/Open play ressources that we have (with some minor tweaks).

 

[Wraith01]

Like they've said we have AoS Skirmish and I'd add Path to Glory. Besides playing AoS games with a small model count is relatively easy and works well. 

 

That said I'd love an AoS version of Mordheim. But something more like Necromunda with it's own line of mini's designed to showcase the not so powerful inhabitants of the mortal realms.

[Greyshadow]

Hmm, I'd love to see a new skirmish game but rather it stays as an expansion I think. That said, I think Kill Team looks really tempting.

[Dead Scribe]

I think Path to Glory is their version of Kill Team.

[michu]

Not quite. It starts with small units, but it's played like normal AoS, where Kill Team has it's own rules and each model is a unit on it's now.

[Blueraven84]

They could update skirmish and make it more robust. I wonder if they wait and see if Killteam sells well enough and maybe they will do new killteam for AOS too.

[bsharitt]

So in general my favorite scale of game is skirmish level. I am super stoked for 40k Kill Team and I really want to see a close equivalent to in in Kill Team. Skirmish doesn't really fulfill that role. It's a super light overlay of the current core rules and and to really get a lot of mileage out of it, you need some house rules. I don't have  a problem with house rules to add a little extra flavor to a game among friends, but I still like a full featured and generally even system out of the box for pick up games. Even then, there's addons that GW can do in a full featured skirmish game that they can't or won't do in full AoS. One is the activation system in Kill Team, which while short of full a full alternating activation system I personally think works much better for a skirmish scale game, it's a least a lot closer in the right direction. While I don't see gear options making a comeback in AoS in the near future, and I don't mind it that way, customization(rules of the model, not just the way it looks) is a big draw for skirmish games for me.

I don't think GW needs to rethink how the game will work too much, Kill Team in still 40k at it's core after all, I'd just rather see them take pieces of AoS and build it into a skimish game rather than taking the full AoS system and applying a thin veneer of skirmish on top. Yes, it'd probably be a lot more restrictive that even the current Skirmish profiles, but I think it'd be worth it. Right now I see Skirmish as this little fun thing for AoS players to do on the side, but not much of a game for people who really want to play skirmish games. It almost feels like it should be found in White Dwarf rather than its own book.

[wayniac]

I really hope GW revises AOS Skirmish with the sort of love they are giving Kill Team.  Skirmish is a great way to play AOS, just the existing rules make it wildly unbalanced to play beyond a few games.  Maybe they can combine Skirmish and Path to Glory into a single "warband" level subgame.

[Skabnoze]

We don't NEED one, but it sure would be nice to have.

[Nin Win]

Skirmish is definitely something that needs a set end point.  The six games in the skirmish supplement works, but I actually think 4 or so is better.  Or the game needs a stronger handicap/underdog system.  We've taken to giving Ruse cards from the Open War cards or the new tables in the rulebook for every 50 point difference, a command point for every 50 point difference and the rerolls according to that table in the book (but x5 to make it points)

We also stopped using renown as it's just points/5 so we just use points as it's one less step.

23 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I really hope GW revises AOS Skirmish with the sort of love they are giving Kill Team.  Skirmish is a great way to play AOS, just the existing rules make it wildly unbalanced to play beyond a few games.  Maybe they can combine Skirmish and Path to Glory into a single "warband" level subgame.

I don't really want anything like the new Kill Team.  It strikes me as a really shallow attempt to sell the new 40k terrain.  Even the starter sets for each faction they are coming out with seem to be just a sprue of guys and a bunch of terrain.  I'd hate to see a version of AoS skirmish that limits every faction to a couple of models and then is largely about selling people new terrain.  "You can take chaos marauders or chaos marauders on horses and we've got this starter set for you that bundles 10 marauders and an Ophidian Archway for $60.  Get hyped!"

Had AoS Skirmish been a major departure from the core AoS rules, limited factions down to 2-4 models and then bundled everything with terrain at every opportunity, I definitely would have given it a big pass.  And it was instrumental in me building larger and larger forces until I could play the full game.

I'm also totally opposed to bundling needed cards with out of faction releases.  Like shadespire or x-wing where people buy sets just to get a single card to use in the game.  That's an absolute non starter for me.  One of the only reasons I got back into warhammer with AoS was the rules were free and the warscrolls could be downloaded.

[RuneBrush]

It depends on what you mean by "in AoS".  If you mean within the setting of AoS then why not!  We've got Shadespire, Gorechosen, Warhammer Quest & the freebie WD game (I'm sure I've forgotten others).  My feeling is that we're missing a hard-campaign based game (aka Mordheim) and the Mortal Realms would be a fantastic setting.

If you mean within the AoS ruleset then probably not.  Open, Narrative, Matched, Skirmish & Path to Glory (you could include aerial & siege too) with numerous derivatives in between, I feel is plenty.

[TheOtherJosh]

I’d actually like to see some minor modifications to Skirmish to better support “small unit gameplay”

For example, the Killteam rule where someone gets taken out of play due to a “Flesh-wound”. Or ends up gimping around the battlefield.

A model is injured and takes enough damage to reach 0 wounds. Make an injury roll.

On a 3 or less, the unit has a flesh wound, and on a 4+ The unit is taken out of action.

If they have a flesh wound, then they get a modifier to their die rolls for attack and further injury rolls.

I could see that getting messy for large scale combats, or fights with loads of models...

But, a roster concept, Like a sideboard for my Skirmish Warband, would address that issue.

Min of 3 Models, max of 20 in a given fight, With a Warband roster that can expand further than that number.

[wander]

Could do something cheeky like the 7th edition 40K Kill Team; no Heroes, only units and you could either do like 200pts for your warband, or you could do a more personal level and allow any non-Hero models from units in, paid for by their individual points (for example in a Death warband a Chainwrasp costs 8pts, whilst in an Order one a Liberator costs 20pts etc) and you can have 100pts to make a warband up. It's a cheap and dirty way to do a Kill Team kind of AoS game and it still would need balancing, though both of these you could try doing today and it'd be fun enough.

[michu]

In wfb 6th edition you could use unit champions as leaders of warbands. I'm actually trying to update old scenarios from Skirmish book. One of the funniest is the scenario where one player commands Eshin warband and tries to poison dwarven beer supplies. 

[gabbi]

I, for one, don't like Skirmish very much, and I am a skirmish games player mostly (Malifaux, Dark Age, Necromunda...). But Skirmish suffers from it's AoS origins: models stats are designed for a game that fields armies, not warbands. Take Chaos for example, I've played my games of Skirmish with Bloodbound mostly. A bloodreaver has 4+ on hitting and wounding, meaning it will cause on average ONE wound every FOUR combat phases, assuming he survives so long and opponent will not save it (no Rend, either). He also have 1 wound and a 6+ save. Basically Bloodreavers makes sense in AoS cause they're in 20+ units, in Skirmish a lone Bloodreaver is little more than a cardboard cutout with a bullseye painted on its forehead. And you HAVE to take this kind of stuff, to fit into the point allowance. I found the now gone Hinterlands a way better take on "AoS skirmish" but to me, playng a handful figures in AoS makes sense only if you compose a warband entirely of elites and heroes (i.e. multiple wounds, multiple attacks). The standard foot soldier hardly has an impact in the game and worst of all, is hardly interesting to play.
So, imho, a skirmish game set in AoS should have its own ruleset, not just a few guidelines to adapt AoS to a 5-men warband. It can be a ruleset derived from AoS, but it ha to be a way more hevily modified iteration of it.

[TheOtherJosh]

@gabbi @michu

I’ll agree, it would make substantially more sense to change stuff up... but it would make crazy more sense to move models with the HERO keyword out of a Warband.

And have this entirely a game of standard units against other standard units.

Allow “unit champions” to act in the role of “LEADER”

Thats basically very similar to the 40K Killteam implementation. The ‘hero/leader’ role (ie HQ Units) don’t appear to be in the Killteam game, instead you see forces lead by Unit champions.

[gabbi]

5 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

I’ll agree, it would make substantially more sense to change stuff up... but it would make crazy more sense to move models with the HERO keyword out of a Warband.

And have this entirely a game of standard units against other standard units.

Allow “unit champions” to act in the role of “LEADER”

Thats basically very similar to the 40K Killteam implementation. The ‘hero/leader’ role (ie HQ Units) don’t appear to be in the Killteam game, instead you see forces lead by Unit champions.

I agree. My comment about playing Skirmish with just elites/heroes is tied on how the rules are now, but with a proper ruleset and possibly dedicated model profiles, fluff wise I'd like more a game dedicated to "unsung" fighters. Even more: I'd like to be able to get my models from a wider pool of models, possibly even cross-alliance. That allow me for maximum flexibility. Think of the "more or less" classic adventuring party D&D style, or a ragtag warband of outcasts including orcs, goblins and skavens. Or a mixed human and ogres mercenary band. These are the tales I would be interested in playing with such a kind of game.

[TheOtherJosh]

3 hours ago, gabbi said:

I agree. My comment about playing Skirmish with just elites/heroes is tied on how the rules are now, but with a proper ruleset and possibly dedicated model profiles, fluff wise I'd like more a game dedicated to "unsung" fighters. Even more: I'd like to be able to get my models from a wider pool of models, possibly even cross-alliance. That allow me for maximum flexibility. Think of the "more or less" classic adventuring party D&D style, or a ragtag warband of outcasts including orcs, goblins and skavens. Or a mixed human and ogres mercenary band. These are the tales I would be interested in playing with such a kind of game.

Interestingly enough that would probably work reasonably well with using the Silver Tower Rules and Hero Rules...

Or Play as the Adversaries Rules ...

[Reeve]

Think that as soon as the Kill Team book has fully landed we should start working on adapting that material to Skirmish. A Skirmish 2.0 would be very welcome, but I don't think GW is actively working on it. 

On the topic of excluding heroes, while I fully understand the sentiment, I also think that including heroes is very important to give Skirmish some depth. Units in AoS don't have that many options for weapons and wargear and AoS is more focussed on 'heroic stuff' so non monstrous-heroes are for me an important part of that fantasy. 

[Mr. White]

I would like to see a bit more focus on the WHQ line. It's classic series and the new AoS version is fantastic. There's some WHQ chickenfeed in WD every once in a while, but I would like to see any of the following three:

* New box game vs Death of some sort. Nighthaunts or FEC would be my main choice for main adversaries

* Card pack release for Death adversaries and Destruction adversaries...much like the current Chaos card pack

* A book with more rpg elements. Tips on designing adventures, wilderness/travel encounters, etc

The last option would be fantastic bringing what we have up to the standard of the old school WHQ. Toss in new adversary cards and AoS WHQ would be in a fantastic place.

[Skabnoze]

After buying my copy of KillTeam today and reading through the rulebook I have to say that i am very impressed.  I have almost all GW skirmish game rule sets and this product impressed me.

Old editions of kill team was a hacky set of basic rules that had promise but never delivered.  

The original Necromunda game had the best set of core rules but the campaign suffered from being 100% random.  It was still a whole lot of fun, but leagues and campaigns usually ran into issues unless you had a good arbiter running the league.  I ran a bunch of leagues and saw most of the cracks in the system.

Mordheim had a fantastic campaign system but the hybrid Fantasy Battle core rules were not as good as Necromunda.  It was a solid and great game, but it would have been better if it used the Necromunda core rules combined with its better campaign system.

Gorka Morka was absolutely fantastic.  It had an even more random campaign system than Necromunda but it really worked well for the game and was fitting for ork gangs.  The problem this game had was simply the limited appeal due to being mainly orks.

New Necromunda has expanded background and more flavorful gangs.  It has some fun additions like alternating activations, but the gangs are not overly balanced, the board-game rules lead to heavy imbalanced matches, and on the whole I find the original game had a better set of core rules.  

Shadow War was pretty much the same core rules as original Necromunda with a few of the advanced rules removed.  However, it had an extremely stripped down campaign system that was mediocre at best.  It also copied the missions straight from Necromunda without much changes and so a lot of them did not work as well due to the lack of expanded campaign and the differences in forces.

AoS Skirmish is a fun game, but it is just a slimmed down version of AoS with only slightly more effort than old versions of Killteam.

The new Killteam has a smart set of rules.  They are for the most part an improved version of 40k rules.  The changes put into the Killteam system are almost universally improvements.  The campaign system is slim but still fairly elegant.  It harkens back to the campaign for Mordheim in a few ways.  The terrain killzone rules for environments are interesting and fun but not complex.

Honestly, I would now very much like to see the same team revamp AoS skirmish with the same thought that they put into the new Killteam.  It is a fast and elegant system that has enough interesting mechanics and army flavor to stay interesting but not get overly bogged down in complexity.  This strikes me as a really superb entry-level skirmish game.