AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[Graywater]

Biggest piece for me today. Looks like the wording on little morathis command ability changed to not include "if she is your general".

This Is huge! We now have out of phase activations without losing the ability to take battleline snakes. 

I'm not stoked if morathi loses her current heart of khaine ability, but this command ability change definitely helps. 

Big morathi gained a few heartrender attacks and the tail doesn't bracket nearly as hard, but her survivability was her selling point. Her gaze has also changed. She no longer picks a model out of a unit, which is a bit of a blow, but at least now she can affect any model/unit regardless of wound count and from 3x the distance.

MUCH happier with the rules from today over the ones from the past couple. Now we just need one of those 2 unspoiled battalions to be decent.

[Chumphammer]

10 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Biggest piece for me today. Looks like the wording on little morathis command ability changed to not include "if she is your general".

This Is huge! We now have out of phase activations without losing the ability to take battleline snakes. 

I'm not stoked if morathi loses her current heart of khaine ability, but this command ability change definitely helps. 

Big morathi gained a few heartrender attacks and the tail doesn't bracket nearly as hard, but her survivability was her selling point. Her gaze has also changed. She no longer picks a model out of a unit, which is a bit of a blow, but at least now she can affect any model/unit regardless of wound count and from 3x the distance.

MUCH happier with the rules from today over the ones from the past couple. Now we just need one of those 2 unspoiled battalions to be decent.

She may still have that rule. It states in the text:
"Morathi-Khaine’s defining abilities are largely unchanged"

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

She may still have that rule. It states in the text:
"Morathi-Khaine’s defining abilities are largely unchanged"

Also, the fact that she takes 3 wounds in case of auto-kill spells/skills seems in line with the "max 3 wounds per turn"

[Graywater]

6 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

She may still have that rule. It states in the text:
"Morathi-Khaine’s defining abilities are largely unchanged"

Maybe. I wouldnt complain if she did. But morathi-khaine is the little one, right? So I dont know if they'll keep it on snake form. I hope so, because 12 wounds on a 4+ isn't very tough to kill, and since both models are removed if snake morathi dies, you lose a lot very easily. We'll have to see on this one.

[Mutton]

Fury of the Shadowborn is amazing. And as someone said before, not needing her to be your general to use the CA is exactly what we wanted.

Anticipating the Heart of Khaine rule will be gone, though. I'm willing to bet she sacrifices the artifact to empower her ritual.

[Marcvs]

3 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Anticipating the Heart of Khaine rule will be gone, though. I'm willing to bet she sacrifices the artifact to empower her ritual.

I am probably scarred from playing vs too many shooting armies, but if she looses the Iron Heart rule all the rest of the changes won't be able to balance that loss. A monster with 12 wounds on a 4+ will die horribly fast (and just a little slower in Hagg Nar)

[Chumphammer]

She will keep heart of khaine.

Morathikhaine is the whole 2 models. Mini Morathi's wounds uto transfer to big morathi

Big Morathi dies then mini morathi dies

Big morathi has 12W and 4+ AS

So, if she didnt have heart of khaine shes a terrible model as will just die to anything.

With heart of khaine shes imporatant to keep alive now as more expensive but better for your army in general and offers magic support and the command ability.

So she will keep the heart. The fact a slain rule gives her 3 wounds reflect this 

[Graywater]

11 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

She will keep heart of khaine.

Morathikhaine is the whole 2 models. Mini Morathi's wounds uto transfer to big morathi

Big Morathi dies then mini morathi dies

Big morathi has 12W and 4+ AS

So, if she didnt have heart of khaine shes a terrible model as will just die to anything.

With heart of khaine shes imporatant to keep alive now as more expensive but better for your army in general and offers magic support and the command ability.

So she will keep the heart. The fact a slain rule gives her 3 wounds reflect this 

Perhaps. We've seen the "if a spell or ability would kill this model, do X instead" a few times now. I think morathi was first, so they could reword it to fit their newer design like this. I wonder if maybe she'll keep it, but it will be changed to 3 wounds per phase. There are some 40k models that have this type of rule. Of course, having it unchanged would be best for us.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Graywater

[jhamslam]

43 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

She may still have that rule. It states in the text:
"Morathi-Khaine’s defining abilities are largely unchanged"

Big Morathi still has her heart of khaine

 

Small Morathi cannot be killed / does not take any wounds until Big Morathi is gone. If a spell would slay Morathi, do 3 MWs is the new rule

Edited November 5, 2020 by jhamslam

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

Also, the fact that she takes 3 wounds in case of auto-kill spells/skills seems in line with the "max 3 wounds per turn"

If she does not keep her Iron Heart rule the two Models are Dead on Arrival.

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, jhamslam said:

Big Morathi still has her heart of khaine

 

Small Morathi cannot be killed / does not take any wounds until Big Morathi is gone. If a spell would slay Morathi, do 3 MWs is the new rule

Correct. That is what we have concerning the new rule. The question is whether she keeps the rule in its current form of maxing the amount of damage she takes in a turn. We haven't seen anything that she has lost that rule, but nothing that verifies she keeps it. The "3 damage instead of being removed" is a clue in the direction that the rule remains unchanged, but it doesn't confirm anything.

[jhamslam]

30 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Correct. That is what we have concerning the new rule. The question is whether she keeps the rule in its current form of maxing the amount of damage she takes in a turn. We haven't seen anything that she has lost that rule, but nothing that verifies she keeps it. The "3 damage instead of being removed" is a clue in the direction that the rule remains unchanged, but it doesn't confirm anything.

No dude trust me, she keeps her "3 damage a turn max".  Theres a reason shes 600 pts now

Edited November 5, 2020 by jhamslam

[Graywater]

13 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

No dude trust me, she keeps her "3 damage a turn max".  Theres a reason shes 600 pts now

Have you actually seen the warscroll/points? 

[PJetski]

5 hours ago, ColsBols said:

my uncle jimbo who works at gw says the new allegiance is 

+1 bravery

give another hero an artifact

command ability +1 attack to khinerai or melusai unit within 12

artefact does d3 mw at the end of the combat phase to each enemy unit within 3" if you roll a 5+

 

he also says both versions of Morathi are on the table at the same time, you cant kill the smaller morathi until you kill the bigger morathi because she is carrying the heart of khaine. 8 attacks on heartrender now

melusai are much better now, can buff them up to have 6 glaive attacks and 4 crystal touches per model

Your uncle seems quite credible

[JackStreicher]

9 hours ago, PJetski said:

+1 bravery

give another hero an artifact

command ability +1 attack to khinerai or melusai unit within 12

artefact does d3 mw at the end of the combat phase to each enemy unit within 3" if you roll a 5+

Any news about the command trait?

[DJMoose]

Hey gang.  Have a listen to me blather on about Broken Realms, Daughters of Khaine, and Morathi on Grimdark Live!

 

[Ser_namron]

19 hours ago, jhamslam said:

No dude trust me, she keeps her "3 damage a turn max".  Theres a reason shes 600 pts now

Oof 600 pts is alot. It seems like she will be worth it though. Still need something else to make snakes battleline otherwise its gonna be a struggle to run a snake heavy morathi list with all the tricks. 

[Graywater]

1 hour ago, Ser_namron said:

Oof 600 pts is alot. It seems like she will be worth it though. Still need something else to make snakes battleline otherwise its gonna be a struggle to run a snake heavy morathi list with all the tricks. 

600 is a lot. She has to go up in points a bit but i hope its no more than that.

 

Fitting all of the toys in the list is pretty much never gonna happen. You gotta pick and choose what you add. The good news is that if you take morathi, you arent penalized by taking a medusa as your general, as you can now use morathis command ability for hero phase activation without needing to be your general. For this reason alone, im hopeful. 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Graywater

[Ser_namron]

15 minutes ago, Graywater said:

Fitting all of the toys in the list is pretty much never gonna happen

No doubt, but it'd be nice to have a few and not an all eggs in one basket situation. The morathi command ability not needing her as your general is clutch, thats how it always should have been. I assume the same will happen to SQ if we get a new tome. 

Im more worried of needing to assemble the support leaders ontop of Morathi. Def want 1 or 2 hags brews, probably one of them needs to be a cauldron. You want Medusa as general for snek battleline, but if shes on foot in the current meta your gonna lose your command trait real fast, so she probably also needs to be on a shrine. Thats well over 1k points already. Blood sisters arent cheap either, even units of 5 to fill battleline will be pricy. Im having a hard time throwing in anything besides leaders and battleline in my first few lists. 

[Graywater]

34 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

No doubt, but it'd be nice to have a few and not an all eggs in one basket situation. The morathi command ability not needing her as your general is clutch, thats how it always should have been. I assume the same will happen to SQ if we get a new tome. 

Im more worried of needing to assemble the support leaders ontop of Morathi. Def want 1 or 2 hags brews, probably one of them needs to be a cauldron. You want Medusa as general for snek battleline, but if shes on foot in the current meta your gonna lose your command trait real fast, so she probably also needs to be on a shrine. Thats well over 1k points already. Blood sisters arent cheap either, even units of 5 to fill battleline will be pricy. Im having a hard time throwing in anything besides leaders and battleline in my first few lists. 

Well the good thing is our battleline is what we use for heavy lifting anyways. Ive had a lot of success this year (11 of 12 tournament games won) with the following:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290)
- Artefact: Iron Circlet
- Prayer: Martyr's Sacrifice
Bloodwrack Shrine (210)
- General
- Command Trait: Devoted Disciples
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters of Slaughter (120)
- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

Even with this, its mostly heroes. However, if we are able to use both forms of morathi, then the medusa surviving isnt as much of a priority because morathi will remain a more reliable mindrazor caster. 

If you go with the new temple, there's even less of a reason to bother protecting the medusa. In hagg nar, your 5+DPR comes from your general, so you want her alive. But without that, you really just want the medusa for battleline snakes. She's a bit of a throwaway beyond that. Right now we don't have any word on a command trait for the new temple, and very well might not have one at all, considering our other temples don't have the whole list of trait, command ability, artifact, and allegiance ability. 

Its hard to definitively say anything without seeing the rest of the book and points for morathi. She has always been something you built around if you included her, and so thats not surprising to see this challenge continue. This is particularly the case if you wanted to run her and a core of snakes. That is just a design choice youre going to have to make and understand that combination brings with it certain limitations. 

The army I listed above was created because I wanted to run morsthi and snakes. Would it be better switching out morathi or the 20 snakes for more elves, hags, and promoting one to a queen? Probably. Would I prefer to have only snakes and no elves? Absolutely. But this list is the compromise I made with myself to run the models I like while still playing a list with power enough to win at large events. Let's see how things are looking once everything is revealed and then the community at large should be able to work these sorts of things out.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Graywater

[Ser_namron]

1 minute ago, Graywater said:

(11 of 12 tournament games won

your local meta must clench everytime you enter the store hahah. Thats awesome man! 

You've got good insights and you make valid points. Im skeptical the new temple will make people switch from Hag Nar, the 5+ / reroll turn 3 is just too good imo, and even more so if were going heavy on snakes who dont have the best defense. So i think taking the medusa on foot will still be a problem since we wont want to lose her. 

Like you said, were going off half baked info, so its all speculation. 

I've never been one to use Morathi because i hated her profile before this new scroll.  so this is honestly new territory for me building around her. I've always just thrown more bodies in and have been happy lol. 

[Graywater]

56 minutes ago, Ser_namron said:

your local meta must clench everytime you enter the store hahah. Thats awesome man! 

You've got good insights and you make valid points. Im skeptical the new temple will make people switch from Hag Nar, the 5+ / reroll turn 3 is just too good imo, and even more so if were going heavy on snakes who dont have the best defense. So i think taking the medusa on foot will still be a problem since we wont want to lose her. 

Like you said, were going off half baked info, so its all speculation. 

I've never been one to use Morathi because i hated her profile before this new scroll.  so this is honestly new territory for me building around her. I've always just thrown more bodies in and have been happy lol. 

Well my local area is quite small, so I have to travel a few hours to get to tournaments. inconvenient, but at least I'm not terrorizing a non-existent local scene.

I'm not sure Cobra Kai will replace hagg nar either honestly, but im hoping it is at least on khailebron level, where it is in the conversation as an option. Im personally tired of hagg nar, but we probably won't get a real mix up until a new book is released. 

I will say that previous to me running my bloodwrack on a shrine, I ran her on foot, and she rarely died. Grindy combat armies could never get to her, and the shooting armies that killed her were often squishy enough to not withstand a return attack by my units. Its not ideal, but im not sure its unplayable to keep her on foot. Even if she dies turn 1, full rerolls to hit on turn 3 is better than some subfactions get in or out of our book.

I'm excited for the morathi change because I was running her anyways. Not running her doesnt make those other armies any weaker. Like I said previously, I think that was the stronger build before this. Including morathi may now be the stronger way to play, or it wont, bu for yhat we have to wait to actually play to determine. Good news though, is unless she's now over 600 points, I dont think she's now worse to play than before.

[Chumphammer]

2 hours ago, Graywater said:

 

I'm not sure Cobra Kai will replace hagg nar either honestly, but im hoping it is at least on khailebron level, where it is in the conversation as an option. Im personally tired of hagg nar, but we probably won't get a real mix up until a new book is released. 

 

you don't know how much this just made me smile seeing Cobra Kai catch on lol 

[novakai]

Ironscale's warscroll is up on the NZ site

Her CA allows one unit of Medusai to Run and Charge/Shoot and allow them to run 2D6 

also a 5+ to ignore spells

[Graywater]

31 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:

you don't know how much this just made me smile seeing Cobra Kai catch on lol 

Thought you'd like that.

10 minutes ago, novakai said:

Ironscale's warscroll is up on the NZ site

Her CA allows one unit of Medusai to Run and Charge/Shoot and allow them to run 2D6 

also a 5+ to ignore spells

2d6+run and charge is HUGE. Average threat range for a unit of blood sisters becomes 22 inches. Makes melusai an actual turn 1 threat for sure. If she allows snakes as battleline if shes your general, then the medusa is in real threat of being dropped.