AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion

[Luke1705]

Like actual RIP Gristlegore. First tyrants of blood (a better gristlegore) and now this. Yikes

[Acid_Nine]

4 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

Incorrect. Start of the phase doesn’t require alternating. So if it’s our turn, we can zap and hit the gristlegore general with 4 units if we do choose since it’s all simultaneous, assuming high tide of course

oh, okay so that makes more sense. So theoretically, on turn 2 on our turn we can zap him too, as the ability hits at the start of the turn?

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

oh, okay so that makes more sense. So theoretically, on turn 2 on our turn we can zap him too, as the ability hits at the start of the turn?

During any battle round when it is your turn you can do the eels mortals before he could attack.

[Luke1705]

3 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

oh, okay so that makes more sense. So theoretically, on turn 2 on our turn we can zap him too, as the ability hits at the start of the turn?

Drofnum has it right. If it’s our turn eels always zap first. If it’s his turn he goes before both our zaps and high tide.

Lucky for us my eels deep strike in exclusively on my turn 🙂

[SleeperAgent]

How competitive do you guys think this list would be? I purchased a large number of Namarti in a lot and tried to make it the most "Death" type army as I could with the Soulrenders maxed out on bringing Namarti back like skellies. Eidolon is basically Mourngul pre-nerf on steroids. And the Soulscryer is kind of like "from the underworlds they come".

Idoneth Deepkin - Mortal Realm: Shyish
Enclave - Morphann
Heros:
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (400)
-Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
Isharann Soulrender (100)
-General
-Command Trait: Born from Agony
-Artefact: Black Pearl
Isharann Soulrender (100)
Isharann Soulscryer (100) 
Units:
20x Namarti Thralls (280)
20x Namarti Thralls (280)
10x Namarti Reavers (140)
10x Namarti Reavers (140)
3x Akhelian Morsarr Guard (160)
3x Akhelian Morsarr Guard (160)
Batallion: Namarti Corps (100)

1960/2000        111 Wounds       4/6 Leaders     3x Battleline   2x Artefacts

I also considered cutting the Reavers down to 10 and both Morsarr to add an Aspect of the Sea, or another Aspect of the Storm and 100 point hero. (most likely Soulrender 3)

Edited March 24, 2019 by SleeperAgent
Split reavers into 2 units for battalion.

[Luke1705]

2 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

How competitive do you guys think this list would be? I purchased a large number of Namarti in a lot and tried to make it the most "Death" type army as I could with the Soulrenders maxed out on bringing Namarti back like skellies. Eidolon is basically Mourngul pre-nerf on steroids. And the Soulscryer is kind of like "from the underworlds they come".

Idoneth Deepkin - Mortal Realm: Shyish
Enclave - Morphann
Heros:
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Storm (400)
-Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
Isharann Soulrender (100)
-General
-Command Trait: Born from Agony
-Artefact: Black Pearl
Isharann Soulrender (100)
Isharann Soulscryer (100) 
Units:
20x Namarti Thralls (280)
20x Namarti Thralls (280)
20x Namarti Reavers (280)
3x Akhelian Morsarr Guard (160)
3x Akhelian Morsarr Guard (160)
Batallion: Namarti Corps (100)

1960/2000        111 Wounds       4/6 Leaders     3x Battleline   2x Artefacts

I also considered cutting the Reavers down to 10 and both Morsarr to add an Aspect of the Sea, or another Aspect of the Storm and 100 point hero. (most likely Soulrender 3)

It’s good. The problem is 1” reach on the thralls. You won’t normally be able to get all of them into combat. Also your soulscryer is realistically only bringing 1 unit with him. I might consider a second scryer so that both thrall units can flank from different sides

[SleeperAgent]

12 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

It’s good. The problem is 1” reach on the thralls. You won’t normally be able to get all of them into combat. Also your soulscryer is realistically only bringing 1 unit with him. I might consider a second scryer so that both thrall units can flank from different sides

Would it be better then to cut the Reavers down to 10, add another Soulscryer, and then break the Thralls into 10x each while still keeping 40 total? That way each Soulscryer can drop on a flank and have 2 units of thralls go with each? I originally added the Soulscryer and Morsarr as a quick way to kill off something that needed to die immediately by dropping them together, throwing both of them in the buffed charge and using the biovolts.

Edited March 23, 2019 by SleeperAgent

[Luke1705]

 

It’s a tough trade off. Larger thrall units will hit harder if you get a decent charge roll. They’re also much more susceptible to battleshock. One thing you most definitely want is a caster (probably a tidecaster). That lets you reverse tides so that you can get high tide turn 2, and the tidecaster can also deep strike the eidolon across the board turn 1 if you need to. If you do fuethan, your eels will be able to run and charge (and assuredly make charges turn 1).

 

I’d probably do:

Storm

Volturnos

Tidecaster

Soulscryer

Soulscryer

20 thralls

20 thralls

10 reavers

3 stabby eels

3 stabby eels

 

On turn 2 Volturnos can literally make the thralls go berserk. 4-5 attacks per thrall? Yes please.

edit: that’s 51 rend 1 saves each unit forces on an enemy unit if you somehow get everyone in range (which with 2 scryers can be possible if you tag whatever unit they scryers target with their ability. +6 to charge is pretty beefy)

Edited March 23, 2019 by Luke1705

[Aelven supremacy]

Several issues:

you need 2 units of reavers for namarti corps

volturnos cannot use his ability if you are using the tidecaster plus fuethan combo

 

im trying 3 x 10 thralls and 2 x 10 reavers with the fuethan tidecaster combo (at movement 6 I think the increased movement in fuethan is more important than the turn 3 volturnos smack)

[Azamar]

Just caught up with the combat order article and faq, but looks like I’m late to the party. Glad it sounds like I wasn’t the only one to get in a muddle about how high tide fitted in with everything anyhow. 

At the risk of looking a gift horse in the mouth, does anyone have any insight on why they went back in this direction? They already came out with a  seemingly  conclusive answer a couple of weeks ago but I guess Ben changed his mind?

[Maddpainting]

I was under the impression it was a decision to make the phases cut and dry like how they are trying to make everything. There are only 3 times in the combat phase to do any melee, nothing in the middle of middle phases type of thing. They even came out with a chart.

Its Start, during, end. Thats it, no questions, no arguing, etc...


Im also late to the party on namarti corps battalion, mostly b.c i didnt have the models and i like to play with the turtle. but for comp, when using namarti corps and something like 15 eels, should i use the tidecaster or the king as my general? This is the only thing i struggle with, should i reverse the tides or gain bonus attacks? Edit: Spelling

Edited March 25, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Acid_Nine]

2 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I was under the impression it was a decision to make the phases cut and dry like how they are trying to make everything. There are only 3 times in the combat phase to do any melee, nothing in the middle of middle phases type of thing. They even came out with a chart.

Its Start, during, end. Thats it, no questions, no arguing, etc...


Im also late to the party on namarti corps battalion, mostly b.c i didnt have the models and i like to play with the turtle. but for comp, when using namarti corps and something like 15 eels, should i use the tidecaster or the king as my general? This is the only thing i struggle with, should i reverse the tides or gain bonus attacks? Edit: Spelling

I believe it is tide caster if your going fuethan for the extra turn of running and charging for the alpha strike / early high tide, and king if you just want eels? Could be wrong but that's how I see it.

[Luke1705]

4 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Im also late to the party on namarti corps battalion, mostly b.c i didnt have the models and i like to play with the turtle. but for comp, when using namarti corps and something like 15 eels, should i use the tidecaster or the king as my general? This is the only thing i struggle with, should i reverse the tides or gain bonus attacks? Edit: Spelling

Both work.  The eel only list is more aggressive and more reliant on turn 2 into turn 3 and therefore you have to play more cagey on turn 1, plus it's more unforgiving because it's more body light.  However, it also hits like a literal truck on high tide.

The alpha list is my personal preference. I think it's a little more well-rounded and TAC without relying on a ridiculous wombo (although the turn 1 alpha strike is quite good, and situationally you can just wait until turn 2 to come in with some or all if you need to to make sure you maximize high tide on turn 2).  I also like how it has bodies that are more ok with staying back they need to.  There are definitely a fair amount of units that can sneak in behind our alpha and take our home objectives just as fast as we can take theirs so if we have literally no one home, it's not going to be easy to hold home objectives.

Of course the eel only list also just typically tables their opponent when they win and so it doesn't matter if they sneak behind you for a turn on a fair few missions if your opponent is dead on turn 4 or 5.

[Maddpainting]

Going off what you say, if you play alpha strike list, isnt it even more important then to get the reverse tides? So on turn 2 you have the upper hand no matter what.

Also.. the more i play testing out Tidecaster as General the more i dont mind taking a King at all and 2 Soulscryers, what about that?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Maddpainting

[DanielFM]

Pure Morrsar spam just came 2nd in Throne of Skulls.

I hope it's not sending GW the wrong message. Spamming our best unit is still competitive, yes. But the rest of the army needs help.

So when GHB2019 comes, let's cross fingers they don't just nerf Morrsar and leave the rest of the army as it is.

[Maddpainting]

What was the list?

[The World Tree]

On 1/15/2019 at 9:01 PM, Drofnum said:

The thing is with Idoneth almost all the units are good.  The Leviadon and Shark are not as good as Morrsarr, we all know and accept that, but compared to most things outside of our Battletome they are still quite good units.  I've played quite a few "suboptimal" lists and for everything outside of serious tournament play its still powerful enough to table opponents.

 I love the shark and Leviadon models and hope they get buffed up in some small way so they are more viable in tournament play but there is no reason at all not to field them right now unless you are on the bleeding edge competitive scene. 

I think a Namarti heavy army with a Leviadon providing constant cover could be pretty cool to play, 4+ save Thralls bringing back 6 models a turn is nothing to sniff at!

He didn't come 2nd on battle points - only 3 wins. He came 2nd because he was a really nice opponent and had a pretty army.

His list was basically all Morrsarr, Volturnos, Soulscryer, Tidecaster, Fuethan. I don't remember the exact unit numbers but  something like 6, 6, 9?

I believe a Deepkin army with a turtle won four  games but I don't know the list.

[SleeperAgent]

If I pick Mor'Phann do I hate to take Freezing Mists on all my wizards or just Tidecasters? Because it actually says your "Mor'Phann Tidecasters know the Freezing Mists spell instead of a spell from the Lore of the Deeps."

[Maddpainting]

Means you dont pick the spell, you must take that spell.

Edit: It says only the Tidecaster is force to know that spell.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Icarion]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

Means you dont pick the spell, you must take that spell.

That's not what he is asking. 

he's asking if wizards other than the tidecaster have to take it to, or if they can choose a different one.

In answer to that question, Eidolons are not tidecasters, or have the tidecaster keyword so they are unaffected by that rule, they can choose any spell from the lore of the Deeps. Additionally, Eidolons do dot get the Enclave specific spell either. 

[Ritschi]

8 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Pure Morrsar spam just came 2nd in Throne of Skulls.

I hope it's not sending GW the wrong message. Spamming our best unit is still competitive, yes. But the rest of the army needs help.

So when GHB2019 comes, let's cross fingers they don't just nerf Morrsar and leave the rest of the army as it is.

thats true. It would be terrible if GW seeing only the army and not the lists. But I don't think so. Some years ago (special from 2007 up to 2015) I would be in panic now
maybe, now they see we need pointfixes with some units. even it's only some little like 20 points for the shark or 40 for the leviadon. tournaments are what they are. but there are also fluff and casual gamers. 

[Drofnum]

I've taken a bit of a break from Warhammer since LVO, going to get back in to it this week with a 1 day charity Tournament.  Looking to take this list which is a pretty decent change up from my LVO list.  Excited to see how it does vs my previous list.

Idoneth Deepkin
Isharann Soulrender (100)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Isharann Soulscryer (100)
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Lliandra's Last Lament 
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
Knight-Incantor (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Namarti Thralls (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
6 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (280)
9 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (480)
Namarti Corps (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)
Everblaze Comet (100)

[Maddpainting]

You can take Comet spell through allies? never looked into that before.

[Kitsumy]

21 hours ago, DanielFM said:

Pure Morrsar spam just came 2nd in Throne of Skulls.

I hope it's not sending GW the wrong message. Spamming our best unit is still competitive, yes. But the rest of the army needs help.

So when GHB2019 comes, let's cross fingers they don't just nerf Morrsar and leave the rest of the army as it is.

Yes thing is morsar spam isnt so great numberwise. Tournament data shows they are around 4th. With flesh eater and skavens coming closer. 

 

So even the supossed op unit being spamed is ok. And every other unit are really overpriced. Per example u cant compare the crappy avatar against any verminlord. When he is worse than the verminlord and cost the double? Omg

 

So yeah i dont get the hate everyone have on our eels. Since numbers show them ok. They are nice yes. But there are so many unit better and people dont cry so much about them.

 

Im sure morsar will be nerfed on generals only for people hate. But i hope they do huge reductions on every other unit. So the only viable tournament build get nerfed but our casual lists using sharks. Avatars. Turtle archers etc finally be playable haha

[Aelven supremacy]

I’m anticipating the morrsarr nerf in GHB19 and trying out aggressive builds without them.  Two Eidolons of the Storm are actually pretty decent and have some advantages.   Running  tidecaster fuethan they get to retreat, run and charge on turns 1, 3 and 5.  On turn 4 they get a 2+ save if you don’t want to charge (cast mystic shield for further fun).  They hit consistently strongly (especially if buffed with artefacts) and, given retreat and charge, they can charge every single turn and are more flexible than the eels.    They heal on the charge as well and don’t degrade at all with damage.  With artefacts they can be given mortal wound protection too which eels lack.  Finally they still have rend even if charged, which is a real problem for the eels.

I have been experimenting running 2 x of the storm plus namarti corps (for second artefact).  Tool one up as an absolute beast in damage output (I like e.g. Blade of Symmetry on the spear or sword of judgement on the stormshoal) and the other one with mortal wound protection (mirrored cuirass is good fun).    Build the remainder of the list to get a semi-reliable Isharann ritual (I aim for 6+) and you have two beasts healing 1+D3 every turn, rerolling all failed hits, rerolling 1s to wound, punching out damage 3-4 attacks on -2 rend.  I have charged the mirrored cuirass Storm into 9 eels and wiped them (reflect mortal wounds back, a few lucky-ish rolls followed by failed battle shock)