AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Walkirriox]

38 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

Yesterday I was searching the app and I saw the underworlds centaur warband and the cursed city elf as part of a sylvaneth army. For sure this has been said but will we have some new units? elf units? that cursed city is for sure a wanderer, but why is with sylvaneth? 

We got the Warsong Revenant a couple of weeks ago, so I don't think we will see any faction update early. We might see new stuff such as Kurnothi with the future Sylvaneth Battletome in 3.0, but I think it will take 1-2 years, as per how GW releases new stuff. BTW, forget about Wanderers, they won't come back unless the lore changes the situation between oth factions.

 

42 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

And other thing I dislike about sylvaneth was the forest, and I feel surely a lot of armys will go now with the monster to break it. So, are Sylvaneth in a good point now? what is like to come with 3.0?? how is playing sylvaneth now?? 

I don't think the rampage will hurt us that much because it deletes the warscroll rules which include the LOS blocking and MW output, but the terrain remains as Wyldwood so we can still take advantage of it for teleport as it is written in our allegiance ability. 

We don't know if Sylvaneth will be in a good spot in 3.0, it's too early to tell. First we need the points to figure out the lists we can make, and then a lot of playtest and tournaments. But one thing is for sure, it is a general consensus that we are in a better spot than we were in 2.0, since most of the new rules don't hurt us that much compared with other armies and some of them even benefit us.

[Popisdead]

9 hours ago, Walkirriox said:

BTW, what happened with the old Wyldwoods we have? Can we still play 1 of them as it is almost the same size as 3 of the awakened pieces, or are they gone?

I still have quite a few and no plan to upgrade to new ones.  I plan to just use them as a 1 set of woods.  It's just a game and it would surprise me to see people have real issues, and if so just avoid those players.  there is always some bent-out-of-shape player who needs to oppress someone's fun.  One of the main reasons I quit tournaments.

[Mirage8112]

All in all it, looks like we got off light for points. Hunters got the worst of it, but now scythes are cheaper than the other options.

 

 

[Emissary]

Alarielle Same
Warsong Revenant Same
Arch-Revenant +5
Branchwraith +15
Branchwych +10
Drycha Hamadreth +30
Spirit of Durthu +40
Treelord Ancient +35
Ylthari -30
Dryads -5
Spite Revenants +10
Tree Revenants Same
Skaeth's Wyld Hunt -10
Kurnoth Hunters with Bows or Swords +35
Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes +25
Treelord +10
Spiteswarm Hive -10
Gladewyrm +30
Vengeful Skullroot +45

[Aeryenn]

Massacre. I lost close to 300 points on my current list. Sylvaneth might be unplayable until battletome or next edition. Great support for the worst army.

On the other hand I will barely feel changes to my Kharadron Overlords list... Make GW hire somebody who knows how to count.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Aeryenn

[Walkirriox]

Well, I have seen some leaks and all the armies are going up on points, so nothing to be scared.

Tla, Durthu and Drycha have a fair point increase acording to the overall up in points, so we will still see them, maybe TLA the worst of them though.

I think that treelords might be a good option instead of hunters, because they are cheaper and have the new rules for monsters. 
Dryads -5 is just great, but I don’t get why spites have a +10… they were “good” because of the cheap points. Maybe we see more tree rev now, for just 10 more points you have a tp screen.

Endless spells are interesting, I think spite swarm is a must, for these points is a candy. And the other two will do x2 damage or heal, so x2 cost seems fair.

What do you think about it? I’m excited to see some lists, we have all the tools now!

[Wachamba]

Good things are with these changes - Warsong revenant shines now.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Wachamba

[brattenbergus]

59 minutes ago, Emissary said:

Alarielle Same
Warsong Revenant Same
Arch-Revenant +5
Branchwraith +15
Branchwych +10
Drycha Hamadreth +30
Spirit of Durthu +40
Treelord Ancient +35
Ylthari -30
Dryads -5
Spite Revenants +10
Tree Revenants Same
Skaeth's Wyld Hunt -10
Kurnoth Hunters with Bows or Swords +35
Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes +25
Treelord +10
Spiteswarm Hive -10
Gladewyrm +30
Vengeful Skullroot +45

The picture that I have seen it says that Alarielle will Cost 740p though? 

Edited June 17, 2021 by brattenbergus

[Wachamba]

2 minutes ago, brattenbergus said:

The picture that I have seen it says that Alarielle will Cost 740p though? 

 

Yes, Alarielle changed and increased with Broken realms -  Kragnos to 740

[Popisdead]

26 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

Massacre. I lost close to 300 points on my current list. Sylvaneth might be unplayable until battletome or next edition. Great support for the worst army.

Okay.

23 minutes ago, Walkirriox said:

Well, I have seen some leaks and all the armies are going up on points, so nothing to be scared.

...

Dryads -5 is just great, but I don’t get why spites have a +10… they were “good” because of the cheap points. Maybe we see more tree rev now, for just 10 more points you have a tp screen.

...

What do you think about it? I’m excited to see some lists, we have all the tools now!

Yeah I wouldn't complain before trying out games.  I saw Orruks got hit.  I like dryads still and going down in price, taking 20 seems like it's worth trying.  

I suspect there might be other things to come?  Or just battleplans?  Endless Spells changed enough that we may still be 16 days away, or fewer.

Just now, brattenbergus said:

The picture that I have seen it says that Alarielle will Cost 740p though? 

 I think it is in relative to her Broken Realms cost which is 740.

[Arzalyn]

22 minutes ago, Walkirriox said:

Well, I have seen some leaks and all the armies are going up on points, so nothing to be scared.

Tla, Durthu and Drycha have a fair point increase acording to the overall up in points, so we will still see them, maybe TLA the worst of them though.

I think that treelords might be a good option instead of hunters, because they are cheaper and have the new rules for monsters. 
Dryads -5 is just great, but I don’t get why spites have a +10… they were “good” because of the cheap points. Maybe we see more tree rev now, for just 10 more points you have a tp screen.

Endless spells are interesting, I think spite swarm is a must, for these points is a candy. And the other two will do x2 damage or heal, so x2 cost seems fair.

What do you think about it? I’m excited to see some lists, we have all the tools now!

They finally gave different points for the hunters too.  The Ancient got the worst hit IMO, specially now that we have the Warsong that is a better caster, its hard to justify 300 points for a so-so support. Other than that, we come out of the increases pretty well!

About the endless spells, I would wait until the FAQ. Its possible they get some warscrolls rewrite just like the other endless spells.

[brattenbergus]

9

Just now, Wachamba said:

Yes, Alarielle changed and increased with Broken realms -  Kragnos to 740

Ah okey, missed that! 

[Wachamba]

And Alarielle now has a discount - 225 points  if she doesnt die at the beginning of the game.

In general, the changes are not that big. Maybe this will help to accept:

	Old	New	% Change
Alarielle	740	740	0%
Warsong	275	275	0%
Arch-Revenant	100	105	5%
Branchwraith	80	95	16%
Branchwych	80	90	11%
Drycha Hamadreth	300	330	9%
Spirit of Durthu	300	340	12%
Treelord Ancient	260	295	12%
Ylthari	180	150	-20%
Dryads	100	95	-5%
Spite Revenants	60	70	14%
Tree Revenants	80	80	0%
Skaeth's Wyld Hunt	120	110	-9%
Kurnoth Hunters with Bows or Swords	190	225	16%
Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes	190	215	12%
Treelord	180	190	5%
Spiteswarm Hive	50	40	-25%
Gladewyrm	30	60	50%
Vengeful Skullroot	40	95	58%

Edited June 17, 2021 by Wachamba

[Havelocke]

Okay gang. Now that we've got the points, I've compiled all of my thoughts on how our units will fare in the new edition. I tried to consider past performance, new points,and the new rules set when casting judgement. I gave this far less thought than I could have, so please feel free to pick it apart and tell me where you think I'm wrong!

HAVELOCKE'S SYLVANETH WINNERS AND LOSERS FOR THIRD EDITION - SNAP JUDGEMENT EDITION

Alarielle - 740 (+0)
Small Winner. Better than she was post Kragnos, by virtue of most other stuff going up. She still doesn't compare favorably to Morathi, but she's the same cost as Teclis now. If you wanted to, you could even argue she went down in points, since the value of her summon went up. I can't say she'll be a top-tier choice, but I think you can make her work in a list.

Drycha Hamadreth - 330 (+30)
Big Winner. Drycha loves the new rules. The new command abilities, heroic actions, and rampages, all help her do exactly what she wants to be doing. Her points increase is on par with what we're seeing in most other factions. She takes a small hit due to Spite Revenants being less viable, but let's be honest. That's not why you were taking her.

Warsong Revenant - 275 (+0)
Small Winner. Like Alarielle, was clearly pre-pointed with third in mind. I see the Warsong as competing with the Treelord Ancient for the 'durable second rank caster' role in the army, and I think the Warsong comes out ahead with the extra cast, casting bonus, and fly.

Arch-Revenant - 105 (+5)
It's a wash. From what I've seen, most heroes are going up by about 10. Skating in under the curve is nice. I think the Arch-Revenant loses relevance, though, due to the fact that Kurnoths got hit rather hard, and due to the rules changes, which hurt her command ability.

Branchwraith - 95 (+15)
Big Loser. Fifteen points is a larger price increase than we've seen on a lot of foot heroes, and she didn't gain much from the new rules in any way. While I expect her to continue to be a staple due to the power of her warscroll spell, I think she's seen a downgrade to her competitive power. I suspect we'll see two of them less frequently now.

Branchwych - 90 (+10)
Small Loser. Compared to the Branchwraith, the Branchwych is a bit more likely to care about the heroic actions, or about counting as two models on objectives. That said, I can't see you ever taking her unless you desperately need another cast and have exactly 90 points to spare. (Read: Never)

Spirit of Durthu - 340 (+40)
Small Winner. Durthu is primed to take advantage of the new rules, and he especially loves Heroic Recovery to unbracket him. Still, he got hit harder than some other units by points hikes, and still requires resource investment to work. I don't see myself taking Durthu over Drycha unless I'm building my list around him.

Treelord Ancient - 295 (+35)
The Biggest Loser. The Treelord Ancient saw an increase in points, while also being outclassed by new competition for its primary role in the army. The ancient benefits from the new rampages and heroic actions, and the improvements to wyldwoods indirectly benefited its warscroll spell, but there's a better alternative for just about everything the Ancient does. I suspect the Ancient will occasionally appear in lists to take advantage of its free wyldwood, but iI think it will be replaced by a Warsong, Treelord, or Durthu in most cases.

Dryads - 95 (-5)
Big Winner. While Dryads lost their horde discount, they gained about half of it back, and units of 20 are now ten points cheaper. On top of that, they synergize well with the new rules. Having multiple buffs on their warscroll softens the blow of the cap on command abilities, and their reach lessens the impact of the coherency changes. I expect to see one or two blocks in most competitive lists, moving forward.

Spite Revenants - 70 (+10)
Big Loser. The rules change did them no favors, and they got the only points hike among our battleline on top of it. I have a hard time envisioning them as competitive choices without some changes.

Tree Revenants - 80 (+0)
Big Winner. Tree Revenants were already competitive, and they didn't see any points increases while most other units did. I expect that small units will continue to be a mainstay of the army moving forward.

Treelord - 190 (+10)
The Biggest Winner? One of my two contenders for most improved warscroll in the new edition. The treelord gained access to rampages, now counts as five models on objectives, saw a modest points hike compared to the field, and their primary competition in list building got hit harder than they did. I suspect that some lists will try running a treelord alongside six scythes instead of three swords.

I think Kurnoth Hunters really like the changes to the universal command abilities, and counting as extra models on objectives is nice. That said, not having access to heroic actions or rampages closes the gap a bit between them and some of the other heavy hitters in our book. This large of a points increase definitely hurts them.

Kurnoth Hunters with Swords - 225 (+35)
Small Loser. See above, and... swords will still probably be the go-to choice for three man units, but I think we'll see fewer of them in the new edition.

Kurnoth Hunters with Bows - 225 (+35)
Big Loser. See above, and... if they were going to make the weapon options cost different amount, I don't know why they didn't reduce the cost of bows. The new command abilities help them more than the other loadouts, but bows were already the weakest option on Kurnoths. Outside of fools who love them (like me!), I don't think we'll see a ton of them until they get changed.

Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes - 215 (+25)
It's a wash. See above, and... if you were ever going to make an argument in favor of six swords over six scythes, the new edition made it a lot harder. While Kurnoths as a whole got weaker, scythes got stronger relative to other Kurnoths. I expect a unit of six scythe hunters to continue to be our premiere hammer unit moving forward.

Ylthari - 150 (-30)
Small winner. Still not playable, but she hurts your army by thirty fewer points.

Skaeth's Wild Hunt - 110 (-10)
It's a wash. Less attractive in the new rules, where you're probably less interested in paying for a non-hero caster. It's not like the unit was viable before, though.

Spiteswarm Hive - 40  (-10)
The Biggest Winner? My other contender for most improved warscroll. The spiteswarm hive was already an integral part of some competitive lists, and a boon to almost any list. And it got cheaper. I've been pretty conservative with my predictions so far, but I'll go out on a limb and say that, barring a rewrite of its warscroll, I expect the Spiteswarm Hive to be a borderline auto-include in the new edition.

Gladewyrm - 60 (+30)
Small Winner. While the Gladewyrm got hit with a pretty big points increase, the ability to maintain control and keep the Gladewyrm in the middle of a big scrum is a huge boon to the model. I'm definitely going to try it.

Vengeful Skullroot - 85 (+45)
Small Winner. The biggest boon to the Skullroot is the changes to the Wyldwood, which makes it much easier to summon woods within three inches of an enemy unit, and then combo the Skullroot on the same turn. The big points cost is a little harder to stomach, but it's got a low casting value and D6 mortals to multiple units is potentially very potent.

 

Whew.

[Frowny]

I actually think kurnoths might be better this edition. With easy access to +1 save as a command ability, their built in rerolls suddenly become incredibly good. Our faction command abilities still are terrible, so I see this as pretty easy to do if necessary. Also, having played ogres for a long time, counting for 2 on objectives is not-so-secretly amazing. +12.5% is pretty on par for most point increases, but the actual support for them has gone up. I think I'll try a unit of 6 and hope to make the charge t1 with the buffed spiteswarm hive.

I still wish we had viable support but we'll see how it all shakes out. The treelord ancient, even with both the heroic stuff and the monster stuff still looks just too expensive, although I do always appreciate his guaranteed summon. I might try alarielle again, just for the 3 cast to go throne-of-vines -> summon wildwood -> summon spiteswarm hive to get all my enablers down turn 1. I also still can't see the new horn lady worth her points. 275 is super steep for a 2 cast wizard. 

Branchwraith may not be as much of an autoinclude now. 

[Pennydude]

I'll post some list ideas either later tonight or tomorrow, but I have a few Alarielle lists, a few Double Durthu lists, and a heavy endless spell list brewing.  Warsong + Cogs + Gnarlroot Chalice = bazonkers.

[Arzalyn]

So now that we have the points, any lists you are eager to try? My first one gonna be the following (assuming the endless spells stay the same effect wise):

Allegiance: Sylvaneth
- Glade: Gnarlroot

Leaders
Warsong Revenant (275)
- General
- Command Trait: Nurtured by Magic
- Artefact: Chalice of Nectar
Arch-Revenant (105)
Branchwraith (95)
- Artefact: The Vesperal Gem
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
Drycha Hamadreth (330)
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
30 x Dryads (285)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (225)
- Greatswords
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (430)
- Scythes

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Spiteswarm Hive (40)
Chronomatic Cogs (45)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Wounds: 117

Battalions wound be:

- Warlord: Arch, Wraith, Drycha and one Tree-rev unit.

-  Battle Regiment: Warsong, Dryads, one Tree-rev unit and both kurnoth units.

 

This would give a 5 drop list. The basic ideia is using the revenant to get the cogs for th wraith and himself, which replicate the spiritsong staff effect and let her take a different artifact (maybe the accorn for a free woods would be better to replicate the ancient).
 

[Pennydude]

So, I'm looking at this from a pure points aspect.  Here's some ideas floating around in my brain.  Happy to take feedback on anything and everything!

List 1
Alarielle the Everqueen
Branchwraith
6 Scythes
3 Swords
2 Allopex w/Nets
10 Dryads
5 Tree-Rev
5 Tree-Rev
1995pts

List 2
Spirit of Durthu
Spirit of Durthu
Warsong Revenant
Arch-Revenant
Branchwraith
6 Scythes
20 Dryads
5 Tree-Rev
5 Tree-Rev
Soulsnare Shackles (2000pts) OR Emerald Lifeswarm (1995pts)
(Note: this can be a 5 drop with Warlord and Battle Regiment battalions)

List 3
Treelord Ancient
Warsong Revenant
Arch-Revenant
Spirit of Durthu
6 Scythes
3 Swords
5 Tree-Rev
5 Tree-Rev
5 Tree-Rev
Emerald Lifeswarm
1970pts

List 4
Alarielle the Everqueen
Warsong Revenant
Branchwraith
Treelord
3 Swords
10 Dryads
5 Tree-Rev
5 Tree-Rev
Umbral Spellportal
Chronomantic Cogs
Emerald Lifeswarm
1955pts

List 5
Spirit of Durthu
Spirit of Durthu
Drycha Hamadreth
Warsong Revenant
3 Swords
3 Swords
5 Spite-Rev
5 Spite-Rev
5 Spite-Rev
Emerald Lifeswarm
1995pts

List 6
Alarielle the Everqueen
Warsong Revenant
Treelord
3 Swords
3 Swords
10 Dryads
5 Tree-Rev
5 Tree-Rev
Umbral Spellportal
1980pts
(Note: This can be a 1-drop with Battle Regiment)
 

[Craze]

I wouldn't write off the TLA completely. As CP will be the ressource that most armies will have to manage as efficient as possible, his CA giving possibly our whole army rr Save rolls of 1 could be really efficient if you combine it with lets say AA defence on a key unit.

[Wachamba]

So warscroll builder didnt update yet, and i create a little tool by myself. Sharing with you , guys. Hope it will be useful

Sylvaneth.xlsx

[a74xhx]

4 hours ago, Pennydude said:

So, I'm looking at this from a pure points aspect.  Here's some ideas floating around in my brain.  Happy to take feedback on anything and everything!
 

I'm thinking mostly about Alarielle lists for the moment. She makes it quite tricky to squeeze other stuff into the list.

My basic core would be:

Alarielle / Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / 480 points remaining

First, let's add a Warsong. This also gets me an artefact from Warlord battalion and have 205 points left to spend. So probably a Treelord, or more battleline / endless spells.

Alarielle / Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / Warsong / Treelord / 15 points remaining / Warlord Battalion or One Drop

Now I'm thinking that Alarielle and Warsong don't belong in the same list, as they are fulfilling similar roles (unless you're going to use one as a glass cannon I guess). Gut feeling is you might have too much buffing with both of them.

I can replace Warsong with Durthu. But I want an artefact for Durthu, and to do that, I need an additional hero for Warlord battalion. Archie is of less value now and I can't fit in enough Kurnoths to make her worthwhile. Wych is still pointless. So that's a double Wraith list then. Suddenly that's a lot of points to squeeze in and I'm left with 45 points to play with, which I guess goes on an endless spell.

Alarielle / 2x Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / Durthu / 45 points remaining / Warlord Battalion

I can replace Warsong with Drycha. No longer need extra artefacts as the wargrove one can only go on the Wraith, so instead we're looking at the one drop battalion. That leaves 150 from the above core. So, that means bumping the battleline and/or a spell.

Alarielle / Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / Drycha / 150 points remaining / Two drops

Finally, I could go all out on Kurnoths. 2 groups of swords leaves a not very useful 30 points. Or free up a few more by switching 6x scythes. This leaves me low on command point fun though, which feels like I'm not playing 3.0 properly.

Alarielle / Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / 2x 3 swordsOrBows / 30 points remaining / One drop

Instead of Kurnths, go double Treelord. Now just enough space for a wraith if you want an extra artefact. Ideally though, you'd want some endless spells to give the Wraith some options.

Alarielle / 2x Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / 2x Treelords /  5 points remaining / Warlord battalion

And of course, all the above becomes more flexible when you start messing with that core block. For example, switching 6 scythes for 3 swordsOrBows and a Treelord gets you 15 points to squeeze elsewhere.

But none of these options seem better than the list I started with

Maybe Alarielle + Warsong is the best Alarielle option after all .....?

[Walkirriox]

16 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

Maybe Alarielle + Warsong is the best Alarielle option after all .....?

I don't think so, as you pointed before, they have the same roIe. For me, the best option is:

18 minutes ago, a74xhx said:

I can replace Warsong with Drycha. No longer need extra artefacts as the wargrove one can only go on the Wraith, so instead we're looking at the one drop battalion. That leaves 150 from the above core. So, that means bumping the battleline and/or a spell.

Alarielle / Wraith / 6 Scythes / 2x TreeRevs / Dryads / Drycha / 150 points remaining / Two drops

Two options to add:

- Solid build: Reinforce Dryads to 20 + spiteswarm (Summon 20 more dryads for board control or 3 Kurnoth swords if you need some punch)

- MW output via endless spells: either spiteswarm+vengeful+burning head or vengeful+gladewyrm

[Pennydude]

Maybe I'm a tad bit off my rocker, but I don't think Alarielle and Warsong Revenant have the same role at all.  IMO, Alarielle is more of threat and skirmisher piece while Warsong is a dedicated support caster/hero.  Warsong has a different role than the TLA since the latter is quite durable and the stomp is awesome.  

I also have another idea noodling around in my brainspace that uses Spite-Revs, Warsong, Drycha, Vengeful Skullroot, and the Horrorghast for bravery shenanigans.  If we can't melee them off the board, maybe we can battleshock them.

[Walkirriox]

6 minutes ago, Pennydude said:

I also have another idea noodling around in my brainspace that uses Spite-Revs, Warsong, Drycha, Vengeful Skullroot, and the Horrorghast for bravery shenanigans.  If we can't melee them off the board, maybe we can battleshock them.

Add here the Roar ability that denies CA use on a unit, and boom!

[Havelocke]

1 hour ago, Walkirriox said:

Add here the Roar ability that denies CA use on a unit, and boom!

Sadly, Roar only lasts through the combat phase, so it can't shut down inspiring presence.