AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[Maddpainting]

I love my Chimera for summoning honestly. But only a few missions its good to summon in on. A lot of our summoning is just best to get bodies or fast moving units to sit on objectives, create back pressure, or to prep for next turn. The Chimera is higher chance damage dealer than Bulls, or other units.  Missings with 2-3 objectives that you can not summon onto i'll wait for Chimera unless i need more bodies.

As for it points, yes it needs to come down for sure like all monsters in our book.

[Chaos Shepard]

The Chimera at least for me is a fairly consistent monster, at the very least it is the most consistent monster that Beast of Chaos have. It can still swing but just about anything in this game can do that. It has good attack stats and good mobility, the one part if falls apart is its toughness. With a little bit of luck and proper use it can do a lot of damage. 

However, the last General's Handbook brought some massive points reduction to our warherd units. For 60pts more you can now bring 2 Gorgons. A Gorgon is still a massive swing machine but two have a far more decent chance of landing a blow on top of 28 total wounds between the  two of them.

I think they are still something you can feasibly summon. If by turn 2 you have accumulated at least 7 Primordial Call Points and desperately need bodies on the board, you have a reasonable chance of being able to get it on the board turn 3. Any later and its probably not worth it.

[Oak7603]

Thanks everyone. I think I'll continue on with my plan to get one then as I have 2 Ghorgons and a Cygor from the Start Collecting boxes. 

[Popisdead]

23 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

However, the last General's Handbook brought some massive points reduction to our warherd units. For 60pts more you can now bring 2 Gorgons. A Gorgon is still a massive swing machine but two have a far more decent chance of landing a blow on top of 28 total wounds between the  two of them.

If you are taking Grashnak for that +1 two Ghorgons get a good payoff on them.  I've had a single one eat 20 KO (I can't remember what they were but infantry).  I have been wondering about 4 of them screened out with Ungors.  

[TheArborealWalrus]

So with the new lumineth and other armies powerful shooting ability (I don't think they have a very high tier shooting ability personally, but others in my area think they do *shrug*) it got me thinking about this question.

How do we deal with a predominantly shooting based army?

I feel that being in their face is still the general idea, but with shooters we'll actually have to charge sometimes. We're pretty fast, so pulling off charges through gaps should be possible unless they have a perfect wall around their shooters. Our  screens delay their movement from shooting (powerful  damaging magic could be a problem though)  so overall it seems like the strategy is mostly the same as usual. Do my fellow beast lords concur?  Are there any nuances our elder kin can share? (and finally) How does a non screen based beast army try to deal with the murder rain? 

 For Morghur!

[Derptau]

52 minutes ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

So with the new lumineth and other armies powerful shooting ability (I don't think they have a very high tier shooting ability personally, but others in my area think they do *shrug*) it got me thinking about this question.

How do we deal with a predominantly shooting based army?

I feel that being in their face is still the general idea, but with shooters we'll actually have to charge sometimes. We're pretty fast, so pulling off charges through gaps should be possible unless they have a perfect wall around their shooters. Our  screens delay their movement from shooting (powerful  damaging magic could be a problem though)  so overall it seems like the strategy is mostly the same as usual. Do my fellow beast lords concur?  Are there any nuances our elder kin can share? (and finally) How does a non screen based beast army try to deal with the murder rain? 

 For Morghur!

Barring most things like KO and Kurnoth, there’s not really much out there that will easily shrug 40 ungor raiders playing the same game. We can easily outshoot many armies by volume alone if we plan for it. 

[Maddpainting]

I read their rules and honestly their shooting isn't better than ours. KO, DoT, and CoS all has WAY better shooting, i'd argue SCE shooting is better. 

Yes they can do MW's but its only 1 shot and no rend that base hits on 4+. Its not really going to be insane. That unit is going to be more of a "Sit on objectives and harass small units and small heroes".

[Salyx]

On top of that, Cygors can re-rolls Hits against the whole army, which makes them a lot better combine with their unbind. So they re-roll shooting and can cause mortal wounds during their hero phase. 

I think that Lumineth are a good matchup for Beasts, because apart from their cavalry, they are a very Immobile army, if they want to make use of their special rules, which plays into our strengths. Beasts can dictate the game after they killed the cavalry. If the shooters die as well, Beasts can do as they will. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Salyx

[Maddpainting]

The only bad thing is the Taurus will never work and they have fight first on up to 2 units i think. Thats going to be a problem way more than Bow guys or their spells.

[TheArborealWalrus]

13 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

I read their rules and honestly their shooting isn't better than ours.

I agree, I was just using them as an example because of the others in my group chat are talking about spamming archers, ect. I'm not terribly concerned about the lumineth in general as beasts. They don't have enough output to destroy us (they can have a rend on their shots, but *shrug*). I hadn't considered using raiders to get rid of other shooters, but its a good idea. Especially if they have low saves like most do.  Cygors? Huh. I like it! Unleash the bovine cycolps!  It'll be a nice excuse to bring out the old boy when we get around to testing the army. Reroll hits and kill the odd model as they try to cast. The cavalry could be a danger, but they aren't exceptionally durable so our hitters can probably handle them. So the consensus is to slap raiders down and pincushion the shooters? I only had 10 raiders before lockdown, so I guess that's why it never occurred to me. What about for those of us who don't have enough raiders? Or more serious ranged armies? Kharadron and certain cities armies seem frightening.

So the activation thing isn't at all like a strikes first ability. They merely get to pick two units to strike instead of one. The taurus and other such abilities push them into the end sub phase, so it'll work like normal. This doesn't mean it isn't powerful, you just can't do mass charges with lots of units without great cost. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by TheArborealWalrus

[Derptau]

2 hours ago, TheArborealWalrus said:

Or more serious ranged armies? Kharadron and certain cities armies seem frightening.

I don't think Kharadron are that terrifying to be honest. Catch them and they fall so hard it's laughable. The easiest way I've found to deal with them is to know that your heroes are going down no matter what, so don't line up your forces to depend on them. Secondly, hit the boats with everything you have at once. Once you've smacked it down in profiles it stops being a real threat. Bonus is if your opponent still has people garrisoned in it, you can surround the boat fairly easily and kill all the little dorfs in it. 

As for cities, you need to have them break up to engage you on your own terms, if you make them spread out to get good firing lanes they'll have to. Charge the ones that have overwatch with your throw away units so they waste their shooting and then smack them hard with well, anything. Most cities shooty units are pretty garbage in combat so bestigor will most certainly eat them without trouble.

 

[Maddpainting]

I think people just are playing them the 1 way and that 1 way sin't very good (Big boat bomb).  When i read their book i first thought of no large boats at all lol. Trying to get a friend to play MSU army with them and use their small many mobile shooting with melee support. But no one wants to try it.

[Fireymonkeyboy]

On 6/16/2020 at 5:24 PM, Salyx said:

I don't like the deaolating brayherd, because it does Not included Centigor Love them, they are the most cost-effektive unit in BoC

Any tips for running them?  Just picked up my first batch.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

Have there been any BoC points changes leaked at all?  I'm kinda hoping Gors get less, they stink.  Bestigors are pretty awesome  and though I don't think they need an increase, I have an itch that they will go up a bit.  Hopefully Bullgors will stay the same or get cheaper if we're lucky. 

I think the Chaos god battalions are quite a bit overcosted for what they do, especially since the Chaos god tomes really don't benefit them much since Beasts are not MORTAL or DAEMON.  The Endless Spells are a bit high as well, I mean the Purple Sun is only 50 points and that can just plain erase models.  Perhaps it's fluffy to not have it, but we should be able to ally in the Chaos god keywords too, or at least CHAOS MONSTERS.  Slaves to Darkness is pretty limiting (though I'm very happy with the Mindstealer Sphiranx, been wanting to try the Fomoroid Crusher too, Daemon Prince of Khorne seems solid).

[TheArborealWalrus]

BoC vs LRL, 2000pts, battle for the pass

My army: 1980pts, Gavespawn, 2 drops

•  

  Spoiler

   

  • 150pts – Desolating beastherd

  • 90pts – beastlord – general, mutating gnarlblade, unraveling aura

  • 100pts – Brayshaman – aetherquarts broach, vicious stranglethorn

  • 100pts – Brayshaman – unraveling aura

  • 120pts – 2 chariots

  • 120pts - 2 chariots

  • 120pts - 10 bestigor

  • 120pts – 10 bestigor

  • 280pts – 6 bullgor – 2 handed axes

  • 160pts – Ghorgon

  • 6pts – 10 ungor

  • 60pts – 10 ungor

  • 80pts – 10 ungor raiders

  • 320pts – 40 ungor raiders

    50pts chaos spawn

  • 50pts – command point

   

   

 

My opponent's list: 2,000pts, Zaitrec(?) (gives + 1 to casting), 7 drops

•  

Spoiler

 

• Teclis – all spells, ect

• Light of Elathrion

• Skinari Cathaler – general, the double command point cost spell (bravery shenanigans)

• 20 wardens

• 10 wardens

• 20 sentinels (archers)

• 10 dawnriders (horses)

Spell portal

purple sun

 

 

Deployment: A big sigmar temple plateau thing next to both of our objectives while smaller walls broke up some line of sight. I put both the normal ungors by the herdstone on bullet catching duty while the bulls and the boss hung on the left with the spare shaman and the ghorgon chilled on the right. Both chariots and both bestigor were in ambush with the big raider blob. He deployed Teclis behind the 10 man unit near the front with the cathaler. Archers sat behind them while the 20 brick warded off the right and the riders assisted elathrion on the left.

Turn 1: Finished setting up first and made him go first because I was out of range of his archers. He was in shining company so he couldn't charge or run this turn. He settled on shuffling forward slightly and moving the riders to be close to but not controling the left hand central objective. He did the same with Teclis on the right. This was purposeful and I'm still not sure why he did it. He had cast a bunch of spells, but none of them did much this turn. I also couldn't unbind any of his spells either. My turn I got 4 summoning points and attempted some spells but Teclis said no. All my stuff ran forward to grab objectives and form traps to bait him into charging. I dropped a bestigor unit to try for Teclis while the raiders went for the archers and the other ambushers attempted to catch the dawnriders while they were exposed. 8 archers were shot down despte Teclis' protection but the cathaler protected them from battleshock. All the ambushers failed their charges and it was time for roll off.

Turn 2: I won the roll off which basically meant I would win. The riders would have been annihilated, the archers wouldn't be much better and Teclis was likely to get mauled too, leaving the spears surrounded in a sea of beastmen with no backup. We talked about it and in the interest of an interesting game I gave him the turn. He did more casting that I don't particularly remember (I think some ungors and bestigor died?) I don't think he had looked at all the available spells at this point because next game his spells were very memorable. I think I unbound something unimportant. His riders moved into the center of my army to get their choice of targets while Elathrion moved to slaughter some raiders. Teclis fled back to his wardens while they didn't really move forward. Between the archers, Eltharion and battleshock, I lost something like 28 raiders. The knights charged and … rolled a three. With no reroll available and my turn next he was forced to charge into my ungors protected/ing my beastlord. He tried to kill him and save himself, but only did 2 wound to the lord and killed 5 ungors. It was not what he needed. The beast lord cracked his neck and got to work. He killed 9 of the cavalry and the remainder fled (understandably). With a bunch of loose units and no ability to grab my home objective left, he conceded.

Take away: For lumineth their deployment and maneuvers are 100% key. He lost the game with his moves rather than any particularly bad rolls or clever strategies on my part. I feel like they have to have a plan and stick to it or they won't do well. Feels fluffy for them. You'll see when I get around to writing up our other game how different that one went. The difference was so drastic, I'm not sure what happened this game. Teclis dominates both hero phases. It feels like if you aren't  one of like 3 magic focused armies you won't be able to do  anything magical that he doesn't allow. I didn't know it yet, but the cathaler is possibly the most important lumneth unit in their army. They aren't as slow as everyone is implying, they just encourage grouping up which lends itself to castling. He worked pretty hard on protecting his archers so my raiders were forced to be in a dangerous position to hurt them. I'm not sure how I feel about the big unit. Needs more playtesting.  Once you eliminate the cavalry you can fairly easily control the flow of the game against realm lords. It was over so fast it's difficult to pick up many other lessons for beasts from it.

Edited July 6, 2020 by TheArborealWalrus

[Maddpainting]

Yeah, Lumineth from reading over the battletome (just a couple quick reads) are going to be hard to play objectives. I personally think Teclis isn't worth taking.

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi gang,

Got in my first "big" game with the goats last night, running a pile of Besti-, Ung-, and straight Gor, plus a couple big boys and loads of characters against Tomb Kings.  Got beat pretty hard.  Made some mistakes (probably put too much in ambush, put the Cygor in the wrong spot), but also some good moves (used ambush to distract his big stuff, and more or less kept it out of the game until very late).  In the end, though, he had two huge skellie units on his objective (can't remember the scenario name, but we each had one objective, and you needed both to win); I couldn't punch through them, and the sheer number of attacks he could throw out melted my guys so I didn't outnumber him.  Looking for some feedback/ideas.

I'm looking for two things from you guys.  First, advice on playing Darkwalkers that isn't "Play Gavespawn".  In a game where objectives matter, the enhanced ambush and "teleport" abilities are something I want to explore.  If anyone has experience with the sneaky boyz, I'd appreciate hearing about it.  Second, tips on fighting undead.  With my other armies (Khorne, FEC), I can do enough damage to his big units to bring them below 20, radically reduce their attacks, and take control.  Beasts (or at least goats) seem to lack that option.  How do you all deal with big, resilient, super-offensive Death mobs?

Thanks in advance,

FMB

[Alan Mandelson]

I play Darkwalkers as my main sub-faction and this is what I try to do. Try to put as much of your army in a single battalion as possible. Outflanking a big blob of bullgor (6-9 models) and a Doombull (give him the relic for +2" Charge) and 1 other unit (can really be anything) so you can outflank the pair in either turn 1 or 2. Use a big blob of raiders to screen your main army if you want to go 2nd or character snipe turn 1. The rest is just bodies, bodies, bodies and don't forget to have at least 2 Shaman in the list. Other fun tricks are taking a Cygor in Desolating Beastherd and outflank him in enemy territory and bringing a chimera which can teleport for a CP if it doesn't have any targets. Not great tricks, but fun. I honestly find 10 man Gor (with shields) to be a really useful as they have numbers and a good enough save that your opponent needs to have some decent fighting ability to remove them, making great speed bumps. Numbers is your friend with this army but I almost never (except for raiders) go beyond a 10 man unit but our bodies are cheap and therefore should be plentiful.

These are just things I do with Darkwalkers and I usually middle out at tournaments (2 for 3 or 3 for 5 with it). 

note: I don't have any chariots yet so I can't really vouch for them at the moment but I hear good things.

[Fireymonkeyboy]

4 minutes ago, Alan Mandelson said:

I play Darkwalkers as my main sub-faction

Awesome, Alan, thanks.  I've been running my goats in big blobs, but will try more of an MSU approach next time.  Don't have Bulls, but will see if I can pick some up.

FMB

[Alan Mandelson]

I find big blobs more cumbersome for screening, aura ranges and battleshock. You need to remember most about this army (BOC in general) is to play for the objectives. The bulls are a good threat unit (especially with the outflank) and with your summoning you should be pushing your opponent to make hard choices (or mistakes). Smaller squads forces your opponent to split attacks giving your units better chances at surviving or into less optimal positions so they can strike your multiple units.

[Sauriv]

The new points for us! 😁

[Popisdead]

12 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

 I personally think Teclis isn't worth taking.

Interesting comment.

6 hours ago, Alan Mandelson said:

I play Darkwalkers as my main sub-faction and this is what I try to do. Try to put as much of your army in a single battalion as possible. Outflanking a big blob of bullgor (6-9 models) and a Doombull (give him the relic for +2" Charge) and 1 other unit (can really be anything) so you can outflank the pair in either turn 1 or 2. Use a big blob of raiders to screen your main army if you want to go 2nd or character snipe turn 1. The rest is just bodies, bodies, bodies and don't forget to have at least 2 Shaman in the list. Other fun tricks are taking a Cygor in Desolating Beastherd and outflank him in enemy territory and bringing a chimera which can teleport for a CP if it doesn't have any targets. Not great tricks, but fun. I honestly find 10 man Gor (with shields) to be a really useful as they have numbers and a good enough save that your opponent needs to have some decent fighting ability to remove them, making great speed bumps. Numbers is your friend with this army but I almost never (except for raiders) go beyond a 10 man unit but our bodies are cheap and therefore should be plentiful.

These are just things I do with Darkwalkers and I usually middle out at tournaments (2 for 3 or 3 for 5 with it). 

note: I don't have any chariots yet so I can't really vouch for them at the moment but I hear good things.

I've played Darkwalkers Warherd a fair bit.  And I really like it but I'm not good enough to be great with it.  I generally have fun.  However this was a recent podcast and it rekindled my love of Ghorgons.  https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/the-ghorgonators/  I have generally used 2 Cygors,2 Ghorgons.  The cygors aren't terrible, just not good.  However ambushing monsters is good and a good psychological advantage.  

Also Hugh Laurie recently talked about his Dreadwood build and capitalizing on teleporting Kurnoth Hunters.  I think that's generally our aim with Darkwalkers which also has that ability. I've been toying with 9 Bullgors actually.  And with Hungering for a 6" pile in.  Maybe 3 Ghorgons, and a couple massive blocks of Bullgors.  First turn the Ghorons, second turn the Bullgors. 

I'm glad to see Darkwalkers making some traction.  Kudos for your contribution  @Alan Mandelson

[Televiper11]

Played Darkwalkers vs Deepkin and won. The ability to both ambush & redeploy is huge. I took 40x Ungor Raiders for max shooting effect but otherwise stuck with MSU and was thrilled with how my list played. Great for board control and objective play and for messing with your opponent's head.

[Smillis88]

Just curious about the re roll rules. Says you can only re roll once but if i re roll a hit and it turns into a 6 which my oponent has an ability to make me re roll that or vise versa Would i still have to re roll it? 

[Alan Mandelson]

3 hours ago, Smillis88 said:

Just curious about the re roll rules. Says you can only re roll once but if i re roll a hit and it turns into a 6 which my oponent has an ability to make me re roll that or vise versa Would i still have to re roll it? 

Answer is no. Just remember that can't reroll a reroll. Lets say you reroll 1s and your opponent makes you reroll 6s. If you reroll any of the 1s into 6s that's what they remain and vice versa (6s into 1s).