AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[MrRoff]

Make Mourngul great again! 🏳️‍🌈

[Tropical Ghost General]

In AoS 1.0 I managed to beat my friend's bloodthirster lead bloodbound Khorne army with my spooks (back when it was a choice between spirit hosts or spirit hosts 😂). I managed to get super lucky dice rolls and my mourngul killed the already injured bloodthirster. After the game he moaned about how OP FW models are. So we sat down and compared warscrolls and potential damage output and points cost and he still felt that it was gross and broken at 350pts. 

Then 2nd edition came along, playing the same friend and his same list he asked why I wasn't bringing the gross and broken mourngul along. I sat down with him and compared warscrolls and damage potential again to his bloodthirster and he finally accepted (having not been beaten yet that day and so in a much better mood 😂) that it wasn't that gross and broken and was over costed. But what I had shown him was the older 350pt warscroll. I then showed him the latest version, the 300pt AoS 2.0 mourngul and without the need for any prompting he started to say that the current version is utter garbage for the points cost. 

TL:DR - Moral of the story, the mourngul managed to convince a staunch critic of FW models that they aren't all gross and broken and under costed. 😢

So what are the solutions to having 2 behemoths in the current meta that don't have the hero keyword. It hurts for sure, it makes us one of the only factions that can't truly benefit from the malign sorcery artefacts. 

The Mourngul Solution: In it's 350pt version it was possible to get 24 damage out of the model, using the KoS command ability, the once per game re-roll artefact and luck from the dice gods. Having a 3+ ethereal along with the -1 to hit bubble was also great. In it's current form it can only do a maximum damage of 16 and it's -1 is now models rather than unit within 6" and lost . It's lost the ability for extra damage and instead has gained the unmodified mortal wounds instead. When comparing it to other options we have to compare it's various abilities and cost. So let's begin.... 

Damage potential: 16 damage isn't bad for a behemoth but it's not great either. It's 10 wounds also make it squishy on the rebound attacks. If comparing this to models that have the same -1 rend for 300 points grims have a 42 damage potential and 21 wounds. And if we compare blades that have the same hit and wound stats, they have a damage potential of 32 for 16 wounds if they haven't charged and 48 if they have charged. Now neither the blades or grims were having their horde bonus applied which would increase those numbers. So for the points cost there isn't much point in taking the mourngul over another -1 rend unit in our book if you want to get decent damage output. 

Abilities: Having any minus modifiers are great. The -1 to hit for models in 6" makes using this ability a lot more difficult than in the previous edition. We have a few artefact options in the book but they are limited to attacks that target the bearer and only cover shooting or melee, not all attacks. The closest option for comparison is Lady O's spell. Now it can target an entire unit to give -1 to hit and it also gives +1 for attacks against the unit. Now it's a spell so it's not a constant effect but if you plan on using hordes then it's a much better option than the mourngul's -1 to hit, as all the models in your large squad can benefit. And as Lady O has greater damage potential than the mourngul and is cheaper, if the -1 to hit modifier is what you are looking for take Lady O or ally in Neffy and use her command ability instead. 

So What Is He Useful For: The mourngul is a great small to mid-level character killer, but as with so many other options in our book, it benefits greatly from working as part of a team supported by a hero. So who should he pair up with. So here are some combos to try.... 

....Combo 1: Mourngul, 12 Myrmourns and Spirit Torment are general with Midnight Tome and the Soulsnare Shackles endless spell and the Spirit Drain spell (630pts). The myrmourns are small enough to benefit from the -1 to hit aura that the mourngul gives. Having a 2" range means that the myrmourns can sit as a front line defence for the mourngul. The torment can heal the myrmourns using either it's RoTSH ability or it's warscroll ability. It can also use it's warscroll ability to heal the mourngul further. By using shackles and getting the myrmourns to eat the spell and then healing them, the torment csn give re-rolls of 1 to both the mourngul and myrmourns and give the additional death save and also having a 2" range means that the myrmourns can act as s front line to protect the torment as well. Max damage potential of this killy castle is 43 with perfect dice rolls or 67 if the myrmourns have eaten a spell. If you want to pre-wound a big monster use the drain spell to inflict some pre-combat mortals to it to tske it down a few levels on it degrading chart. This set up is expensive and squishy and fairly slow but is suited to take on all types of enemy. If targeting doppelganger cloak monsters add in the lord ex with Gildanbane for 80pts to negate the relic and give an additional -1 to hit. 

...Combo 2: Dreadblade Harrow as general and Mourngul (400pts). This is pure small to mid-level character killing. The dreadblade teleports himself and the mourngul as close to the target as possible. Having single model bases makes it easier to fit behind screening walls. This is potential suicide mission for the mourngul, but if you feel losing a 300pt model is worth completely shutting down your opponent's buffs/spells/hero buffs going on then it maybe worth it. Doing this if you have gone 2nd can lead to a potential double turn and increase the carnage and longevity of old whispy hair. 

...Combo 3: Mourngul and Lord Executioner with Gildanbane relic, plus spirit torment and 10 bladegheists. (680pts). Got a super tough opponent that is using lots of monsters that you want to shut down quickly, use these two to create a -2 to hit aura and negate whatever artefact the big nasty is using. Going in with a small squad of blades supported by the torment will create the ultimate character and big monster killing ambush squad. Not only that but nothing will want to charge a killing castle that gives their big monster -2 to hit and removes their relic. Has a potential of 42 damage if blades haven't charged or 52 if they have charged. And as the castle is small enough everything will benefit from the torments re-roll ability without having to be super careful with where you pile in models, etc... 

....Combo 4 (Last One): Lady O with shademist, Mourngul, GoS as general with cloaked in shadows, a torment and 40 chainrasps (1100pts). This is the ultimate objective holder. Stick Lady O on the objective, next to her the Mourngul, the torment and the GoS. Then bubble wrap them with the 40 rasps. The GoS will be at -2 to shooting attacks, healing the rasps with his spell. The rasps will be -1 to hit from the mourngul plus -1 from a chosen unit targeted by Lady O's spell. If sll your spells go off, the rasps will be hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s, wounding on 3s re-rolling 1s. With the GoS spell and the torments warscroll healing the unit will have great longevity. And anything that attacks them will be on -2 to hit and -1 to wound. 

Now I know most of my posts are doom and gloom (as is befitting a ghost), but after @ianob comment on finding solutions hopefully these combos will give some of you other spook players some ideas of how to use the mourngul. It's not a good choice as s stand alone model but if paired correctly it has the potential to be part of a devastating team. Now I know that none of these combos are cheap points wise but maybe they can be tweaked to get better points efficiency. I haven't done anything for the BC as I haven't played enough games with it yet to figure out potentially good combos but I'll post them up when I do. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Tropical Ghost General

[MrRoff]

Do we have any hope that our main man Mourngul will get any tweaks or fixes now at the end of the year? 

[Tropical Ghost General]

@MrRoff very unlikely to see any changes until next GHB, so May/June time next year probably.

When it was super OP too many complaints caused it to get nerfed. But unless there are lots of complaints to un-nerf it nothing will change 😢. 

[dmorley21]

As someone new to AoS, I don't get the love for the Mourngul. I get that it used to be good, but it's not anymore and it does not fit the aesthetic of Nighthaunt at all. Honestly, it doesn't even look like a ghost. 

I would much rather figure out uses for the black coach and/or see it get the "Hero" keyword that it really ought to have. 

Also, has anyone used the Coven Throne as an allie yet?

[MrRoff]

17 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

As someone new to AoS, I don't get the love for the Mourngul. I get that it used to be good, but it's not anymore and it does not fit the aesthetic of Nighthaunt at all. Honestly, it doesn't even look like a ghost. 

I would much rather figure out uses for the black coach and/or see it get the "Hero" keyword that it really ought to have. 

Also, has anyone used the Coven Throne as an allie yet?

Because it's a sexy model and one of the only behemoths we have 💔

[miguel_fernan]

I ended up buying Olynder and the Skeleton Start Collecting pack, they were a really sweet deal to say no. Had to pass on the Malignants though really sad.

 

But quick question, is it normal that olynder "wiggles" that much? I mean, I think I`ve built her correctly, but every time I move her she just wiggles so freaking much. Is it normal?

[kenshin620]

5 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

Honestly, it doesn't even look like a ghost.

Well the original art was more ghost like with the crazy hair. But I guess ghouls with hair didn't jive well with the FW sculptors!

[adreal]

That's a awesome picture

[Tropical Ghost General]

2 hours ago, miguel_fernan said:

Is it normal?

Yeah. I used some spare Stormcast and spirit hosts to anchor her down a bit more. A lot of people use scenery or something to stop or reduce the wobble. 

[MrRoff]

3 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Yeah. I used some spare Stormcast and spirit hosts to anchor her down a bit more. A lot of people use scenery or something to stop or reduce the wobble. 

Oh! Interesting! Could you please share a picture of it`?

[Ghark]

Hi guys!

I have been playing three games against a friend and his Seraphon army, and I was wondering if I was the only one struggling against them or not ?

My list is the following at 1500 pts :

- Lady Olinder

- Guardian of souls with Nightmare Lantern

- KoS on Steed

- 20 chainrasps

- 20 grimghasts

- 6 spirit hosts

- 1 mourngul

We are playing using the matched play scenario and each time, his high shooting saturation leaves my with being a living target for all the game without being able to do something constructively.

He runs a Slaan, an engine of gods, many skins and razordons and rypperdactyls. And with his abilities to teleport everywhere, to summon even more annoying stuff and his high saturation (shooting with razordons and melee with rypperdactyls), I don't see many options in each game to perform properly.

Usually I use the chainrasps as tarpit to hold an objective supported by the guardian, the spirits are Olynder's bubble and the grimghasts either alpha strike with KoS and mourngul or act as objective holders at first  turn and then go to charge what's in front of them.

Thank you for you answers fellow Nighthaunts players!

Edited November 23, 2018 by Ghark

[Mystischer]

22 minutes ago, Ghark said:

Hi guys!

I have been playing three games against a friend and his Seraphon army, and I was wondering if I was the only one struggling against them or not ?

My list is the following at 1500 pts :

- Lady Olinder

- Guardian of souls with Nightmare Lantern

- KoS on Steed

- 20 chainrasps

- 20 grimghasts

- 6 spirit hosts

- 1 mourngul

We are playing using the matched play scenario and each time, his high shooting saturation leaves my with being a living target for all the game without being able to do something constructively.

He runs a Slaan, an engine of gods, many skins and razordons and rypperdactyls. And with his abilities to teleport everywhere, to summon even more annoying stuff and his high saturation (shooting with razordons and melee with rypperdactyls), I don't see many options in each game to perform properly.

Usually I use the chainrasps as tarpit to hold an objective supported by the guardian, the spirits are Olynder's bubble and the grimghasts either alpha strike with KoS and mourngul or act as objective holders at first  turn and then go to charge what's in front of them.

Thank you for you answers fellow Nighthaunts players!

Hi Ghark

It seem that your Friend doesn't like you. Seraphon are really tough at 1500 p. And rypper/razzor/mtg + Slann are his best Units.

You musst attack the rypper ( they are only good wen they attack)

Bind razzor  so the cant taget the unit he want

An set your units around his Mtg/slann

So he can not summon so easily( but he can teleport out)

Good luck ^^

 

[mrbedlam]

maximizing hero buffs. So I've been going over our heroes and their abilities for a bit and I'm wondering if we might not be best played in a murder ball to really utilize some of the buffs we can get out of our heroes. For instance: Spirit Torment offers rerolls with a pretty good range if you take some Chainghasts. Guardian gives -1 to hit. Knight of Shrouds gives an attack buff as a command ability.

So the list I'm thinking in my head is

KoS on Steed (banefire blade)

Spirit Torment

Guardian as General (Ruler of Spirit Hosts)

Reiknor (best character)

Vamp Lord with wings

2 x 20 Chainrasp Hordes

30 Grimghast reapers

10 Hexwraiths

Black Coach

In this list you'd have the hexwraiths and KoS hiding in the grave to pop out on the flank you need them on, Reiknor as a flank support on the board and the rest of the horde rolling up center with a few decent options to keep the masses up and moving.

[Tropical Ghost General]

On 11/23/2018 at 9:44 AM, Ghark said:

Thank you for you answers fellow Nighthaunts players!

OK, I play lizards a lot so here's some advice. 

Firstly read my earlier post about the mourngul, it needs hero support to be viable. I would drop 3 Spirit Hosts and take a spirit torment instead. It will give you a re-roll buff bubble. 

So lizards are gross with some of the missions but they need it because they aren't the strongest faction. There is nothing you can do about the teleporting shenanigans and them taking/burning objectives. In such a small points game you may need to split your rasps into 2 x 10 rather than 1 x 20. The more units you have the more that he'll have to split his shooting. 

Rippers are gross when they swoop, re-rolling everything with the toad and getting extra attacks that also get re-rolls. The only counter is screening with chaff units, like 10 unit rasps. If you don't give them effective targets to attack, they will have to waste it on your chaff instead. 

Some of the big dinos have silly ignore all rend saves and re-rollable saves, so best advice is to actually avoid targeting them unless you are certain that you can take it out. They are slow and can't fly so use the terrain to your advantage, because a 300pt model is scary but if it's unable to target you or do something worth while, it becomes a waste of points for your opponent. 

Keep as much in the underworlds as possible and take Cogs. Being able to take out the Slaan is the priority. Use dummy units to attack the Slaan bubble wrapped castle and create a fake attack and then spring a different attack on the Slaan. Use the possibility of a double turn to help lull them into this false attack technique, as your opponent will want to move the Slaan out of the potential danger and that's when you drop the mourngul and torment into space in the backlines and charge, using CP for a re-roll on the charge (but you need the torment in range as the hero to do this). 

Lastly, always play for the mission objective. As tempting as it can be to try and smash face, be reserved and play for the objectives. I wrote a post a few weeks ago detailing all of the 18 missions in AoS 2.0. Have a read (if you can find it) and see how you can adapt your army to the mission types. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

Hey Everyone

So I'm working on some homebrew rules for special characters (such as Liekoron) and was wondering what the group's thoughts are on what benefits a set terrain piece should bring to the army. 

I'm thinking that a Garden of Morr would be most suitable. I'm thinking that it should do an ability similar to deathly invocations and give additional minus to bravery. I don't want it to be gross and OP, but just to trial having something to help create some buffs. 

So thoughts? 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Tropical Ghost General

[Deadkitten]

Nighhaunt seems to struggle from a lack of cheap wizards.  what does everyone do?  Lady Olynder?  Multiple Guardian of Souls?  140 isn't too bad, I suppose.

[Tropical Ghost General]

30 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

what does everyone do?

Midnight tome on a spirit torment, lots of GoS. Take allies of either vamp lord, coven throne or Arkhan. 

[MrRoff]

10 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

Nighhaunt seems to struggle from a lack of cheap wizards.  what does everyone do?  Lady Olynder?  Multiple Guardian of Souls?  140 isn't too bad, I suppose.

I play olynder, coven throne and a GoS, most of the times 

[Espy85]

6 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Hey Everyone

So I'm working on some homebrew rules for special characters (such as Liekoron) and was wondering what the group's thoughts are on what benefits a set terrain piece should bring to the army. 

I'm thinking that a Garden of Morr would be most suitable. I'm thinking that it should do an ability similar to deathly invocations and give additional minus to bravery. I don't want it to be gross and OP, but just to trial having something to help create some buffs. 

So thoughts? 

I'm honest. I am increasingly convinced that it is better to benefit from the assault. I like the garden, but you could use it to add bonuses on the charges. for example: "if a summonable nighthaunt unit wholly within 12" of this element declares a charge gets the wave of terror bonus with an 8+ "

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Espy85 in order to use homebrew the key is not making your opponent feel like it is broken or too cheap. Getting an 8+ WoT is way to strong imo. The reason for going for healing and bravery bashing is that it's not too strong and thematic. Having a large graveyard that has guaranteed healing/reviving that can't be counter (like deathly invocation) and cats ausing additional minuses to bravery makes sense for a spooky graveyard. The minuses to bravery allows some weaker attacks, abilities and units that rely on lower bravery means that lesser used models get to see some table time, at least that's how I imagined it. 

Not too gross but actually helpful. 

[Uvatha]

On 11/25/2018 at 6:29 PM, Tropical Ghost General said:

@Espy85 in order to use homebrew the key is not making your opponent feel like it is broken or too cheap. Getting an 8+ WoT is way to strong imo. The reason for going for healing and bravery bashing is that it's not too strong and thematic. Having a large graveyard that has guaranteed healing/reviving that can't be counter (like deathly invocation) and cats ausing additional minuses to bravery makes sense for a spooky graveyard. The minuses to bravery allows some weaker attacks, abilities and units that rely on lower bravery means that lesser used models get to see some table time, at least that's how I imagined it. 

Not too gross but actually helpful. 

Maybe you could link the new rules to some specific parts of the terrain (e.g. the statues, or the individual mausoleum). And then give to these specific parts some Wounds/Save that the opponent could destroy in order to remove the bonus, or even to revert the initial bonus to a malus (e.g. a haunting spirit reduced to almost-nothing because he lost his link with his special/cursed tomb stone now cleansed by the exorcist from the opponent army?).

[Tropical Ghost General]

@Uvatha that is super thematic and fluffy. Love it, definitely not for matched play though. 

[Dragon10]

Hi all just starting Nighthaunt 

 

i have come up with a list, what you guys think 

 

1 x knight of shrouds (gen)

headsman judgement 

ruler of spirits 

1 x Reikenor the Grimhailer 

1 x Guardian of souls 

Lightshard of harvest moon 

3 x 10 Chainrasps (battle line)

4 x 15 Bladegheist Revs

2 x Shroudguard

1980pts

 

idea is to have battle line as annoying units plus objective grap

Keep the battalions seperate but with deathless spirit improved to 5+ should keep bladegheists alive enough to get into battle especially with general bringing back D3 a turn and guardian potential D6

 

[Tropical Ghost General]

6 hours ago, Dragon10 said:

i have come up with a list, what you guys think

Personally speaking blades are not as good without spirit torments. I used to advocate 20 in a unit, but they are impossible to keep in range of death saves and re-roll buffs in that size a unit and not all can attack. The 5+ death save will get lost completely when your hero dies. At 5-7 wounds this is easily done with mortal wounds or shooting unfortunately. It's still a 6 drop list, which is good but it's not low enough to guarantee 1st turn against a lot of opponents.

If it was me I would first of all play that list with a few games, against a few different opponents and see where the weaknesses are. 

But in the interest of giving advice, I would drop the 2nd blade battalion and 30 blades. We are a super quick hammer army, so you need to be able to focus down on your opponent's big threat and kill it dead in turn 1 or 2. That leaves you with 670pts left. I would then take the following:

• Cogs (endless spell)
• 2 x spirit torment
• 1 x 10 rasps, then merge the 40 rasps into 2 x 20
• 1 x 20 grims
• (660pts total)

This will give you the re-rolls and healing from the torments, the extra move and charges needed from the cogs and makes your rasps more of a tarpit to get through. Plus 20 grims is the ideal size for to be able to get the whole unit into combat, to not be guaranteed running from battleshock when your opponent focuses on them (because they will). It also give you an extra 2 heroes to scatter about and give death saves to units.

Last bit of advice, if you make the KoSos the general and head of the shroudguard he will be a super priority target, so if you do decide after a few games to downgrade to running a single shroudguard, then make sure that you don't make him the general and the head of the battalion.