AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[mmimzie]

9 hours ago, Drew64 said:

Is the  "pile in and fight inthe hero phase" from the battallion not as silly as it sounds?

Or is it a case of I'd be expecting to not be tied in combat with the same unit for multiple turns?

 

I'd assumed the Summoner would be my General, but im still catching up with AoS2 and realm artifacts etc. so hadn't settled on what i'd give him.

He was intended to be my anti horde, relying on Destiny dice to cast it (initialy with balewind/spell portal for range) is this no longer as viable in AoS2?

You're right about the Ogroid, he's almost entirely there because i like the model, and is my best painted unit. (not solid reasoning!)

I guess in my list above i could just remove the Ogroid, but in a LoC, and a spell portal? probably not the strongest list, but is an option.

Will definitely play around with your other suggestions, thanks!

You can definitly use destiny dice to cast, just it sucks if you get games where you don't get the destiny dice you need, and they are taken for other things. LoC +gaunt is like the go to combo right now as it lets you take out key heros. 

Anywho yeah mess around with it. See what works and what doesn't.

[Gordrakk]

Quick question guys, as I am new to Disciples of Tzeentch.

Are you able to use the fold reality spell from the lore of change to return slain Tzaangor Skyfires to their unit? As Tzaangors have the Daemon Keyword, it suggests this is possible, I can’t seem to find no mention of it in the FAQ.

[Grotruk]

Quote

Are you able to use the fold reality spell from the lore of change to return slain Tzaangor Skyfires to their unit? As Tzaangors have the Daemon Keyword, it suggests this is possible, I can’t seem to find no mention of it in the FAQ.

This is possible. That's why 9 enlightened on discs are loved so much !

[Reezark_SP]

8 hours ago, Grotruk said:

This is possible. That's why 9 enlightened on discs are loved so much !

While we're on the subject of Fold Reality, is it possible to use a destiny die to avoid rolling a 1 after its cast? I am 99.999% sure the answer is no, based on what I can gather from the battletome and FAQ, but I've also heard it said that the only rolls destiny die cannot substitute is the initiative roll, and the role to see how many mortal wounds a spell deals.

[newsun]

1 hour ago, Reezark_SP said:

While we're on the subject of Fold Reality, is it possible to use a destiny die to avoid rolling a 1 after its cast? I am 99.999% sure the answer is no, based on what I can gather from the battletome and FAQ, but I've also heard it said that the only rolls destiny die cannot substitute is the initiative roll, and the role to see how many mortal wounds a spell deals.

No, only Kairos ability can alter that roll.

[Luke1705]

3 hours ago, newsun said:

No, only Kairos ability can alter that roll.

Which is why kairos is popular over a LOC

[gnaleinad]

Hi was just reading about Tzaangor skyfire and shaman.

The Shaman gives +1 to the skyfire hit rolls when they are within 12" and the skyfire gets +1 to their hit rolls when they are within 9".

Doesn't this mean that they get +2 to their hit rolls?

[Magnus The Blue]

Nope, the latest Skyfire warscroll doesn't have the +1 to hit ability.  In the beasts of chaos book they moved it from the Skyfire to the Shaman.

[Kharneth]

@mmimzie you were kinda right about those Tzaangors. Though afterward my opponent said he didn't move as aggressively turn 1 because they weren't acolytes, when he did charge them he charged them with a lot and after bravery they were dropped to a single model. Next I'll try with 20 pink horrors and hope I don't roll 0 1s for destiny dice lol.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Kharneth

[CountryMou3e]

What are peoples thoughts and recent play experiences (if any) with the exalted greater demon of tzeentch ?

[obmik1]

Had a bit of an absence since before the release of the boc book. Picking it back up for the new year, obvs zaangors have been toned down and now everyone's on the enlightened band wagon. Just wondering how people are running them? This is the list I'm going to use today. Not feeling great about all the endless spells but other than the swords I want them. Cogs and Mark may get changed out depending on a few games. If they do I'll drop swords and add another 10 acolytes. 

Plan is to snipe heroes with the loc, summoner and Herald. Buff with the scribe and sorcerer. Mince with the enlightened. 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Lord of Change (380)
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160)
- Mount: Steed
- Runestaff
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)

Units
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc(420)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120
 

Thanks,

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, obmik1 said:

Had a bit of an absence since before the release of the boc book. Picking it back up for the new year, obvs zaangors have been toned down and now everyone's on the enlightened band wagon. Just wondering how people are running them? This is the list I'm going to use today. Not feeling great about all the endless spells but other than the swords I want them. Cogs and Mark may get changed out depending on a few games. If they do I'll drop swords and add another 10 acolytes. 

Plan is to snipe heroes with the loc, summoner and Herald. Buff with the scribe and sorcerer. Mince with the enlightened. 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Lord of Change (380)
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160)
- Mount: Steed
- Runestaff
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)

Units
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc(420)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120
 

Thanks,

I think with out pinks you need to run more enlightend/skyfyres otherwise you aren't going to be effective enough. 

Your acolytes will evaporate and your only insured one good shot with your enlightend before the game goes tot he dice gods hoping you don't get double turns or ytour opponent deosn't spike down your unit of enlighted before you can heal them.

From there you don't have enough long game to beable to risk losing your 9 enlightend.  As summoning via spell casting just isn't enough to keep you in the game.  

I'd either add in some pinks to give you a long game or go heavier on the enlightend/skyfyres. 

[newsun]

Pink or warriors for more staying power. Just drop 2-3 acolytes for one of those two units.

[Neffelo]

On 1/6/2019 at 8:19 PM, Luke1705 said:

Which is why kairos is popular over a LOC

Is he though? I don't think I've seen almost any lists with Kairos over a LoC.  I think the LoC is just flat out better than Kairos right now and is used quite a bit more. 

 

[Luke1705]

1 minute ago, Neffelo said:

Is he though? I don't think I've seen almost any lists with Kairos over a LoC.  I think the LoC is just flat out better than Kairos right now and is used quite a bit more. 

 

7th place at nova (or second if you want to count paint scores). That list in particular just got better with enlightened going down in price. Allows for a unit of 9 skyfires instead of the LOC and manticore lord becomes a shaman. Source: I played against that list and it is very good

Personally I think the LOC is amazing for a lot of reasons. But if you’re running an army with a big block of skyfires, enlightened, or both like I am, fold reality is too unreliable. If you roll that 1, you basically lose the game. Need kairos for that

[Neffelo]

1 minute ago, Luke1705 said:

7th place at nova (or second if you want to count paint scores). That list in particular just got better with enlightened going down in price. Allows for a unit of 9 skyfires instead of the LOC and manticore lord becomes a shaman. Source: I played against that list and it is very good

Personally I think the LOC is amazing for a lot of reasons. But if you’re running an army with a big block of skyfires, enlightened, or both like I am, fold reality is too unreliable. If you roll that 1, you basically lose the game. Need kairos for that

Ah, got it. So he is used for just that particular list/build. That makes sense. 

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

7th place at nova (or second if you want to count paint scores). That list in particular just got better with enlightened going down in price. Allows for a unit of 9 skyfires instead of the LOC and manticore lord becomes a shaman. Source: I played against that list and it is very good

Personally I think the LOC is amazing for a lot of reasons. But if you’re running an army with a big block of skyfires, enlightened, or both like I am, fold reality is too unreliable. If you roll that 1, you basically lose the game. Need kairos for that

i dont think kairos is all that worth it as he's only useful in match ups where your opponent can't just ace your unit of enlightend in a single turn. Which is the current competive meta. 

[obmik1]

13 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I think with out pinks you need to run more enlightend/skyfyres otherwise you aren't going to be effective enough. 

Your acolytes will evaporate and your only insured one good shot with your enlightend before the game goes tot he dice gods hoping you don't get double turns or ytour opponent deosn't spike down your unit of enlighted before you can heal them.

From there you don't have enough long game to beable to risk losing your 9 enlightend.  As summoning via spell casting just isn't enough to keep you in the game.  

I'd either add in some pinks to give you a long game or go heavier on the enlightend/skyfyres. 

 

10 hours ago, newsun said:

Pink or warriors for more staying power. Just drop 2-3 acolytes for one of those two units.

So I played a game vs fec last night and lost, which was a bit of a knock because I'm usually pretty confident. I put it down to bad opening moves as opposed to the list I took. I know what mistakes I made.

The acolytes are just meant to be chaff, they died allot quicker than anticipated but again, I made mistakes. 

I don't know how I feel about the idea of running pinks for chaff and farming for fate points, is it really that viable? I think I'd be better served with models on the board up front? Or is there a different tactic you're suggesting?

That being said I could remove all the acolytes and swap them for 3 units of 20 marauders? 

Anyone know the nova list that came 7th or can link me to it, I'd like to see what tzeentch is up to.

Thanks,

[Magnus The Blue]

7 minutes ago, obmik1 said:

So I played a game vs fec last night and lost, which was a bit of a knock because I'm usually pretty confident. I put it down to bad opening moves as opposed to the list I took. I know what mistakes I made.

The acolytes are just meant to be chaff, they died allot quicker than anticipated but again, I made mistakes. 

I don't know how I feel about the idea of running pinks for chaff and farming for fate points, is it really that viable? I think I'd be better served with models on the board up front? Or is there a different tactic you're suggesting?

That being said I could remove all the acolytes and swap them for 3 units of 20 marauders? 

Anyone know the nova list that came 7th or can link me to it, I'd like to see what tzeentch is up to.

Thanks,

3

Pinks have a tonne of advantages over Acolytes:

1) produce a minimum of 50 wounds if your opponent kills all of then (and the blues), making them twice as efficient as Acolytes point for point .

2) Your opponent doesn't know where the blues/brims will go, so you can keep on raising screens and/or pushing 10 model units onto key objectives, all game long. 

3) A few ones on battle shock (like those 1s you rolled for destiny dice) and you can get 5-10 extra pinks from the banner (and at this point start running out of blue horror models).

4) Before they get killed you can another spell caster with +1 to cast (also charging the Tzaangor banner)

Basically pink only perform poorly when they stay alive, so be careful to make sure they can't be ignored/avoided.

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

i dont think kairos is all that worth it as he's only useful in match ups where your opponent can't just ace your unit of enlightend in a single turn. Which is the current competive meta. 

If your 16" move, 36 wound unit with a relatively small footprint is getting smashed in a single turn, you need to work on your screening. Enlightened aren't supposed to be a tank unit that marches into the centre of your opponent's force and goes toe to toe with it,  Enlightened need to be protected but will still get whittled down as the game goes on, thus Fold reality.

Kario's ability has a lot of other uses too, making a key dispell fail for your opponent, for example, can swing a game (Eathervoid Pendulum down the enemy lines for example). Also, his spell, might not do as reliable damage but producing a free spawn in the enemy lines nearly every turn is invaluable. 

[mmimzie]

29 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Pinks have a tonne of advantages over Acolytes:

1) produce a minimum of 50 wounds if your opponent kills all of then (and the blues), making them twice as efficient as Acolytes point for point .

2) Your opponent doesn't know where the blues/brims will go, so you can keep on raising screens and/or pushing 10 model units onto key objectives, all game long. 

3) A few ones on battle shock (like those 1s you rolled for destiny dice) and you can get 5-10 extra pinks from the banner (and at this point start running out of blue horror models).

4) Before they get killed you can another spell caster with +1 to cast (also charging the Tzaangor banner)

Basically pink only perform poorly when they stay alive, so be careful to make sure they can't be ignored/avoided.

If your 16" move, 36 wound unit with a relatively small footprint is getting smashed in a single turn, you need to work on your screening. Enlightened aren't supposed to be a tank unit that marches into the centre of your opponent's force and goes toe to toe with it,  Enlightened need to be protected but will still get whittled down as the game goes on, thus Fold reality.

Kario's ability has a lot of other uses too, making a key dispell fail for your opponent, for example, can swing a game (Eathervoid Pendulum down the enemy lines for example). Also, his spell, might not do as reliable damage but producing a free spawn in the enemy lines nearly every turn is invaluable. 

i can see what kairos does and how one would pick it over an LoC but i wouldn't>

As far as enlightend go if your bringing the 9 man enlightend unit they are a hit squad. Most missions are done by about turn 3, or you can discern whcih side will win or lose.

further more in the current meta its about units that hit hard, so when they connect they wipe out whole blocks of troops. I'm looking at evocators/enlightend/morrsarr/ witch aelves. Enlightend are compared to the previous made out of actual glass they cost more, don't get as hard, and die faster than any of the previously mentioned. The point of the enlightend is they move 16" and fly allowing them to charge from a protected position. If i'm playing in a competive environment (which i do) than you'll find your enlightend will get dusted quickly, but this is okay. You have the speed to strike first meaning you can kill your opponents more important models, or take and important objective. Fold reality is a auto win option should your opponent fail to kill your enlightend on the counter swing. 

That said the enlightend living is an if not a certainty and so invest in kairos, to me seems wasteful. 

Otherwise the speed of your enlightend doesn't really exist, and your jsut using them to gently poke things, as you can really commit as your trying to keep them hidden by screens. In which case you might consider just bringing units of 3 enlightend like they do in beast of chaos. As beast of chaos and tzeentch use enlightend very differently.  Beast use the enlightend as a very strong consistant damage force, trying to bank on slowly pushing the board. using there heavy first turn board jump and near auto turn 1 to secure ground early. So in this case the enlightend are just making sure you keep ground.

In DoT, you have no such luxury instead you use the enlightend along side your wizards as spot remove to clear up space for summoning to steal objectives you have no bussiness getting.  Which the enlightend do by being our hardest hitting hammer unit smashing throw key units. WIth fold reality being a great trump card should any live through your opponent's potential double turn. It's the double turn that makes kairos just no reliable.

Basicly by taking kairos you are saying i think 9 enlightend are worth ~800pts of your list. Sure the die roll adjust can be used on other things, but you wouldn't take kairos with you the enlightend.  As for his spell a magister has nearly the same spell only doing doing and average of 1.5 less mortal wound damage. 

I think kairos can do great things, and he has in competive list. However, if you run up against the meta big boys i think a kairos list will lose 70% of the time, as those list will trade even with your enlightend, however kairos won't make his pts back. Meaning you'll be left lagging behind your opponent with a 380pt paper weight. His not bad, but in the meta he's bad. 


If you want a list that will do well in your local gaming shop; kairos will smash face most the time, and so will an LoC list. The difference is the LoC is stronger against the meta.

Edited January 10, 2019 by mmimzie

[obmik1]

20 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Pinks have a tonne of advantages over Acolytes:

So my issue with them over acolytes is their use as screens. The fact that the blue and brimstone horrors have to be summoned more than 9inches away from the enemy makes them difficult to use, objective capping aside. What happens when those 10 pinks screening your back line get deleted and in the next turn your opponent is free to do what he wants with your wizards? 

 

Do you only take 1 unit of pinks and then use acolytes in conjunction? 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my pink horrors, but I haven't used them in aos2 because I can't get my head around them as a 200 point screen unit. I'd love to be proven wrong and be capable of using them in a meaningful way.

[mmimzie]

37 minutes ago, obmik1 said:

So my issue with them over acolytes is their use as screens. The fact that the blue and brimstone horrors have to be summoned more than 9inches away from the enemy makes them difficult to use, objective capping aside. What happens when those 10 pinks screening your back line get deleted and in the next turn your opponent is free to do what he wants with your wizards? 

 

Do you only take 1 unit of pinks and then use acolytes in conjunction? 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my pink horrors, but I haven't used them in aos2 because I can't get my head around them as a 200 point screen unit. I'd love to be proven wrong and be capable of using them in a meaningful way.

Pinks dont cost 200 they coet 220 or more. 

 

General to get around the summining range and screen length issue. You summon blues and brim early. You do so by killing your own pinks via endless spells, and then that also justifies fold reality as you can then fold reality your pinks to either get more pinks back or sacrafice more.

 

The endless spell also adds value to your destiny dice rolls of 1. As you can use your 1s to auto pass morale and get more pinks. 

 

Generally as a whole endless spells are little bit bad, but when you are using them to farm pinks as well as dish out some hurt, they become very worth while. 

 

As far as screens go genially yes you do bring more screens outside pinks. Blues, chaos warriors, acolytes, and tzaangors all make great screens depending on what you want to use them for. 

[Luke1705]

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

i dont think kairos is all that worth it as he's only useful in match ups where your opponent can't just ace your unit of enlightend in a single turn. Which is the current competive meta. 

What is the unit that is doing that? 

[obmik1]

In ghb18 they're listed as 200 points, can you tell me where that has changed?

Casting spells to kill your pinks to bring more bodies onto the board just doesn't sit right with me, what about alpha strike? Wasting spells? It seems like a convoluted tactic. Too much and if or buts and opportunity cost.

[Kharneth]

3 hours ago, obmik1 said:

In ghb18 they're listed as 200 points, can you tell me where that has changed?

Casting spells to kill your pinks to bring more bodies onto the board just doesn't sit right with me, what about alpha strike? Wasting spells? It seems like a convoluted tactic. Too much and if or buts and opportunity cost.

Pink Horrors cost 200 points, Quicksilver Swords costs 20 points: 220 points. If you're taking Pink Horrors without predatory endless spells than you're going to struggle. 

Pink Horrors become a useful unit when combined with Quicksilver Swords, Aethervoid Pendulum, The Burning Head, Destiny Dice of 1, and Fold Reality.