AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, Pandamina said:

I don't really see an idea here. Should i go first? Then i can't cast anything offensive and enlightened couldn't charge, because again half of my opponent's army is in deep strike and another half is out of range. Then i should probably go second and hide my enlightened behind acolytes. So why should i ever bother with unit size? Unit of 6 enlightened will kill unit of 5 evocators with rerolls. 

Palisade is useless when ballistas are deep striking.

Again man if you aren't having any problems, Then you got it good luck keep up the good work. You need no critques from us. Don't read further nothing more for me to impart for you have already evolvated past the any help i could provide. May your games treat you well.

However, your thought is a bubble that the evocators are going to charge your front line and bait themselves into getting 2nd turned by enlightend they can't even attack. The storm cast can deep strike and it's a game of points. If the evocator play wants he can ignore you and beat you on pts.  If you are going as slow as acolytes accross the table why not jsut take the enlightend on foot then you could have 9 of those <.<... Otherwise if i was the stormcast opponent i'd have all my balista drop down shoot up your enlightend and follow up at some point iwth evocators, and then shake your hand good game.  

the 6 enlightend don't threat the evocators offensively, as you can hope for is you some how trap them in a combat where you get to go second  with your enlightend. 
 

The 9 has threat on the evocators. For one many of the missions in matched play right now are 18" no mans land meaning the enlightend with no help can turn 1 charge if need be and 9 will take care of evocators or whatever else you throw them at.  Where if you throw 6 accross the table they'll struggle to kill the evocators at all and really jsut have to wait for some other unit to run in and be a catty for the enlightend.  Also, you don't have to go first/second the 9 enlightend on disc will be threats longer than the 6 will be so even going second or going first and needing a turn to set up a threat zone you can still punish some evocators. The enlightend move more than double that of evocators,

Lastly, you want the 9 for fold reality. If you just have 6 that's very easy for evocators and a ballista to take out if you try to be aggressive with them. Where as the 9 if you lose 6-8 you have atleast 1 left that can be a target for fold reality.  


Anywho you seem content with your army as is and as long as you are happy. Than i am very happy for your army and hope it does well friend. Good luck!

 

7 hours ago, Kharneth said:

What would you bring and do with a magic heavy list? If I had an Ogroid I'd probably swap out the summoner for him. I'm very tempted to swap cogs for the portal, but I'm not even sure if he'll be shooting. 

I don't LOVE the ogroid, but in longer games he's nice as his spell can single handedly flip objectives against throw away units.  That said it's abit of a 50/50 casting roll that i dont like. Recently i've realized the chaos sorc lord's buff is amazing and is a really reliable spell for enlightend. 

Mind you i've only poked at a few 1k games with tzneetch, but have done alot with my deepkin.

Anyway my magic heavy and the only 1k list i've done any messing with for my tzneetch would be:

LoC W/ Fearther Charm +Magical Supremacy (Firestorm or bolt)
Gaunt summoner (unchecked mutation or Bolt)
Magister
Pink horrors (fold reality)
Kairic Acolytes
Quick Silver Swords

The magister could be dropped for more Acolytes/blue horrors. 
 

[MitGas]

Could someone more experienced tell me how the timelsip pendant works (sorry, I'm a noob player)? I've wanted to use it a few times with the ogroid but in the end always went for something else as I was not sure.

So with it the thaumaturge get's another pile-in - can I attack the same unit twice in every single round? Or can i just use it once per game and then attack two different units? Thanks for any pointers!

[Kharneth]

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I don't LOVE the ogroid, but in longer games he's nice as his spell can single handedly flip objectives against throw away units.  That said it's abit of a 50/50 casting roll that i dont like. Recently i've realized the chaos sorc lord's buff is amazing and is a really reliable spell for enlightend. 

Mind you i've only poked at a few 1k games with tzneetch, but have done alot with my deepkin.

Anyway my magic heavy and the only 1k list i've done any messing with for my tzneetch would be:

LoC W/ Fearther Charm +Magical Supremacy (Firestorm or bolt)
Gaunt summoner (unchecked mutation or Bolt)
Magister
Pink horrors (fold reality)
Kairic Acolytes
Quick Silver Swords

The magister could be dropped for more Acolytes/blue horrors. 
 

I've never used the Ogroid, but he basically comes with a unique Bolt of Tzeentch. Also, in comparison to the Gaunt Summoner, his 7+ to cast spell is the same as the 8+ to cast Infernal Flames with the +1 to cast familiar. Specifically against SCE, if I had an Ogroid I think I'd take him as a replacement for the summoner simply because d6 mortal wounds would be a lot more powerful than infernal flames. Plus the character itself is a bit more durable. The Sorc Lord's reroll saves of 1 ability? Why? His spell is easy to cast and lets them reroll 1s for hits, wounds, and saves. I have 3 enlightened but haven't used any and don't plan to until I play bigger games and can take 6-9 of them. 

So, SCE has literally no casters? 

Your list is technically illegal because you need at least 2 battleline. 

I've been using 

LoC w/ Conjurer & Bolt, Gaunt Summoner w/ Sacrifice & Glimpse, 10 Pink Horrors w/ Mutation, 2x10 Acolytes, Quicksilver Swords, and Cogs. But recently I used Fold Reality on the Pink Horrors and plan to continue doing so. I had an idea to drop the acolytes, cogs, swords, and mark of the conjurer to instead take a 2nd unit of Pink Horrors and the pendulum. Instead of 9 fate points I'd generate 6 fate points and instead of an avg of 6 pink horrors slain I'll have an avg of 9 pink horrors slain. I'd lose out on the 20 acolytes on turn 1 and wouldn't be able to summon more than the same 20 blue horrors as before unless I luckily kill 3 more than the average. I'm not sure if this'll be better, though. 

Glimpse the Future has not been great and with Arcane Sacrifice if I swapped it out for Bolt I could get a 1st turn cast off. 27" range means I could potentially snipe something without being in range to be shot back, but I guess they can move and shoot. I could swap cogs for spellportal to get an infernal gateway off turn 1, too while keeping the LoC out of range from the big guns if there are any. 

I guess I'm mostly talking strategy, here. If you faced SCE list with 5 Judicators, a Lord-Ordinator, and 2 ballistas how would you counter that with your list? Maybe I should do the math, is that enough to kill a LoC in a single turn? I have  some ideas for how to stay out of range, even if he deep strikes, but I don't have any ideas for how to survive getting in range long enough to cast a spell. 

[Kharneth]

58 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Could someone more experienced tell me how the timelsip pendant works (sorry, I'm a noob player)? I've wanted to use it a few times with the ogroid but in the end always went for something else as I was not sure.

So with it the thaumaturge get's another pile-in - can I attack the same unit twice in every single round? Or can i just use it once per game and then attack two different units? Thanks for any pointers!

You can only use it once per game during any combat phase (your turn or enemy turn). It lets you pile in and attack at the end of the phase, presumably after you've already attacked with him. When you pile in you must pile in to the nearest enemy model/unit, so you'll probably fight whatever you were already fighting but sometimes you might fight a different unit. If you're in base to base with two different units than you could choose to attack the one you did not attack already. 

[Pandamina]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

So, SCE has literally no casters? 

Have you read warscrolls? I just showed list with 4 casters on previous page.

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Kharneth said:

Your list is technically illegal because you need at least 2 battleline. 

The list I posted as acolytes and pink horrors.  That's 2 battle line?? 

 

Sce does have wizards 

 

I don't run glimpse on the summoner hes a damage dealer not a support. Glimpse I put on a wizard for them to cast of they are out of range of other stuff. I dont really bank on glimpse alot a 7+ to cast is really bad. Sure it's slightly more likely than not, but it isnt far off from being a 50/50 chance. 

 

Your over analyzing the ogroid spell. Its definitly nice, but I wouldnt necessarily compare it to the gaunt summoner casting bolt. Name because LoC + Gaunt+ (x)Pink  combo exist. The gaunt summoner and pinks are basicly always at +2 to cast and the LoC's matching ruin is a tiny bit worse/better than +1 to cast. Comparitively, the ogroid cant be buffed by the LoC because hes not a daemon. So you bolt of tzneetch on the gaunt and pinks is a 6+ to cast.  Even more so the gaunt summoner has 2  spells casting on a 6+ bolt and infernal flames vs the ogroid's 1. Even if infernal is weak in your match up compared to most spells it does quite very respectable damage, while in match ups where spell is good its bonkers. 

 

Basicly in my opinion the gaunt summoner/LoC combo is always quite strong, in both big games and in small ones.

 

Now on how killable the LoC is. The feather charm gives the LoC -1 to being hit.  Meaning each ballista if at close range will only do 2.6 wounds on average a turn. So even with the indicators you aren't dropping that LoC turn 1, and as you say with some cheeky deployment, and having access to spell portal the LoC can deploy back behind your screen. 

 

Looking at the gaunt summoners durability he does have basicly 10 wounds but counts as a character with 6, he also gets that -1 to being hit. So the power couple can be tough to put down from afar. 

[Kharneth]

18 hours ago, Pandamina said:

If he is a competitive player he'll pick sacrosanct, and if he is not, than there is no point in discussing, because older units are garbage and they are literally your best match up, because they don't have casters at all.

This comment I interpreted as claiming SCE had no casters. When I looked at the SCE warscrolls I only looked at like 15% of the warscrolls because they have a lot! I looked at  the ones you listed. I'm not entirely sure what was meant by this, but at the time I thought perhaps SCE had no casters.

@mmimzie you're right, brain ******. With a Gaunt Summoner, LoC, and 10 Pink Horrors I can either take Glimpse on the Summoner or not at all. I always forget Ogroid is not a demon because he doesn't look human. I'm restricted by the models I own, but you make some good points. I will try something slightly different tonight:

Gaunt Summoner with Arcane Sacrifice and Bolt of Tzeentch

Lord of Change with Feather Charm and Tzeentch's Inferno (or Fold Reality)

10 Pink Horrors with Fold Reality (or Tzeentch's Inferno)

2x10 Acolytes

Quicksilver Swords

Umbral Spellportal

Arcane Sacrifice and Umbral Spellportal means I can get a turn 1 Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Tzeentch, and Infernal Flames. Losing Cogs and MotC will be bring my fate points from 9 to 5, which is likely to result in only 10 blue horrors on turn 1 instead of 2. 

What about swapping Tzeentch's Inferno and Fold Reality? In this way I can cast Infernal Gateway from a distance and Fold Reality on the Horrors instead of being out of range for Inferno. Then the pinks will cast Inferno because they will be in front of the LoC. The drawback is it makes LoC an even better target because when it dies the Pinks will die, but that was already true so? 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Kharneth

[Pandamina]

3 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

This comment I interpreted as claiming SCE had no casters. When I looked at the SCE warscrolls I only looked at like 15% of the warscrolls because they have a lot! I looked at  the ones you listed. I'm not entirely sure what was meant by this, but at the time I thought perhaps SCE had no casters.

 "older units are garbage and they are literally your best match up, because they don't have casters at all." 
Non-Sacrosanct older units don't have casters. 

[MitGas]

5 hours ago, Kharneth said:

You can only use it once per game during any combat phase (your turn or enemy turn). It lets you pile in and attack at the end of the phase, presumably after you've already attacked with him. When you pile in you must pile in to the nearest enemy model/unit, so you'll probably fight whatever you were already fighting but sometimes you might fight a different unit. If you're in base to base with two different units than you could choose to attack the one you did not attack already. 

Thank you very much for explaining it in such detail - this, in combination with a buffed ogroid thaumaturge, will be truly amazing! My friend's poor demon prince...

[Kharneth]

2 hours ago, Pandamina said:

 "older units are garbage and they are literally your best match up, because they don't have casters at all." 
Non-Sacrosanct older units don't have casters. 

Looking at the warscrolls I hadn't realized that some of them were older and some were newer. If he comes competitive I'll at least have an idea of what to expect and if not than I'll just enjoy the surprise. 

@MitGas no problem! I'd love to see my friend's face if I killed his demon prince with an ogroid thaumaturge lol.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Kharneth

[marke]

According to warscroll builder, Tzaangors are battleline. They used to be with Shaman general in BoC, but now seem to be just battleline. What problems I would have with the following list? I'd like to have a low model count list, as I hate transporting and playing with a ton of models, but I kinda would like few comments before assembling for example 9 skyfires.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner (180)
Lord Of Change (380)
The Changeling (200)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Units
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (600)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
 

[Magnus The Blue]

Spoiler

17 minutes ago, marke said:

According to warscroll builder, Tzaangors are battleline. They used to be with Shaman general in BoC, but now seem to be just battleline. What problems I would have with the following list? I'd like to have a low model count list, as I hate transporting and playing with a ton of models, but I kinda would like few comments before assembling for example 9 skyfires.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner (180)
Lord Of Change (380)
The Changeling (200)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Units
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (600)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
 

Post Beasts of Chaos, Skyfires are meh.  Not awful but  I'd struggle to justify 9, especially without any Shaman to get them at least hitting on 3+.   600 points for an average 4.5 hits a round just isn't worth it.  Sure they are decent in combat if you get to attack first but still doesn't feel like those 600 points are well spent.

Personally, I've only found The Changeling worth the high price tag in a Changehost where it can be swapped with a LoC at an opportune moment, or at a with a pendulum to get a nasty cast across the battleline .  Otherwise, it's a lot of points for some minor annoying tricks.

Small units of Tzaangor are most useful when you have LOTS of wizards to make the banners really devastating. Just 4 makes the banner only ok and only 10 models mean you'll lose the extra attacks after only 2 casualties. 

Also, the Guant Summoner soooooooo much better with familiers.

 

 

 

9

 

[Ninelives]

On 9/27/2018 at 9:58 AM, Magnus The Blue said:

I've been thinking about the Herald on Burning Chariot recently and wonder if it is worth comboing with some endless spells.  Specifically- Balewind Vortex for 15" range on Tzeetch's Firestorm, or even better (but more expensive) Spell Mirror to drop the spell in the middle of the opponent's army without putting the herald in harms way.  Both costly combos and need some casting boost to get the 9+ regularly, but feels like it could be worth it against any army with MSU (multiple small units).  Anyone tried it or got any ideas for how to best use the Herald on Burning Chariot?

Good shout ! Haven't thought about that at all, but what I love about the Herald on Burning chariot in my friendly games is that it makes my other Burning Chariot battleline. 

[Kharneth]

Battle with the Sigmarites went well. He actually didn't take much of what I was expecting. He took a Lord-Celeste, Knight-Incantor, a priest guy, 7 or 8 gryphon puppies, 2x5 liberators, and 5 evocators. He wasn't Hallowed Knights, I forget which he picked. I went first and he shut down my first turn, I didn't get a single spell cast off. He used up his auto unbind, which honestly I thought was a really poor usage of it. Turn 1 I killed 1 pink horror with arcane sacrifice and got no spells off, so I have no fate points and only 2 blue horror points 😓  Also, our realm was shadow and so spell casts had a hard limit of 18" so arcane sacrifice was less useful. On turn 2 he got to go first, but after his 2nd turn I had the upper hand until the end. We decided to end on a draw at the end of the 4th turn, it was impossible for him to get to my objective in the next turn and he didn't think I'd be able to secure his objective, either. 

Removing Glimpse the Future and giving the Gaunt Summoner Bolt of Tzeentch was very nice, though Tzeentch's Inferno on the LoC was not as useful as Glimpse the Future. 

I'm really glad I switched out the rod for the sword on the LoC. I used him to charge the gryphon hounds that charged my acolytes and he killed enough to cause the rest to flee!

I discovered that I have no idea how to use endless spells and apparently need to read the rules. Is the malign sorcery the most up to date for endless spells? During one of the later turns I attempted to cast Quicksilver Swords with my Pink Horrors and he told me that units cannot cast endless spells, only characters? But he didn't really seem sure, for whatever reason he felt he couldn't cast endless spells with his Evocators and therefore neither could I with my Pinks. He also said that Predatory endless spells are controlled by whichever player does not go first on any turn that the spell exists prior to the turn it is cast. So he had this magic hammer tornado that inflicted 4 wounds to my Gaunt Summoner. On the following turn he won initiative and told me that I was allowed to move the magic hammer tornado, which confused me so I had him explain. Naturally, I moved it away from my Gaunt Summoner and towards the Pink Horrors and then that was that. Later I asked him how his predatory spell deals damage and whether or not I could've used it to damage my pink horrors when I moved it. He said I could use it if it was within range of an enemy unit, but he didn't think I could use it on my own units. I don't know why he thought this, but I'm almost positive he was wrong.

I have found my answers to the Endless Spells in Malign Sorcery. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Kharneth

[Lughaidh]

Dipping my toes into Tzeentch and got this army coming to me. I have what is in the list plus 20 Blue Horrors, 20 Brimstone  Horrors, and 10 additional Acolytes. Any advice on spells, artifacts, traits to take? Or just Advice in general on what I have?  I’m not looking to buy any more models unless I decide to switch to Tzeentch as my primary army. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Lughaidh

[Pandamina]

1 hour ago, Kharneth said:

During one of the later turns I attempted to cast Quicksilver Swords with my Pink Horrors and he told me that units cannot cast endless spells, only characters? But he didn't really seem sure, for whatever reason he felt he couldn't cast endless spells with his Evocators and therefore neither could I with my Pinks. 

It is specifically stated in the Evocators warscroll, that they can only cast their signature spell or one from the lore. So they can't cast endless spells. But Pinks don't have such restrictions, therefore they can cast endless spells.

[Kharneth]

1 minute ago, Pandamina said:

It is specifically stated in the Evocators warscroll, that they can only cast their signature spell or one from the lore. So they can't cast endless spells. But Pinks don't have such restrictions, therefore they can cast endless spells.

Oooh haha that makes a lot of sense. 

 

[Luke1705]

9 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

  Hide contents

Post Beasts of Chaos, Skyfires are meh.  Not awful but  I'd struggle to justify 9, especially without any Shaman to get them at least hitting on 3+.   600 points for an average 4.5 hits a round just isn't worth it.  Sure they are decent in combat if you get to attack first but still doesn't feel like those 600 points are well spent.

 

 

 

9

 

I'm not sure I agree with that.  Having the ability to kill support characters is so important.  Sure spells can do that, but most support characters can just hang back and stay outside of casting range, or they can at least do so until their front lines have hit yours.  Skyfires give you the ability to kill the characters on your very first turn.  Or I guess I should clarify - they're probably only killing 1 support character per turn.  But them getting to do what they do when they go first is pretty important IMO and very nice with fold reality.  It's just so many attacks and those re-rolls are beautiful.

[Reezark_SP]

Hey guys what do you recommend to use vs. Sylvaneth? Just played against them last night and the army was essentially immune to spells and shooting because of the trees they spam all over the entire map. 

[Magnus The Blue]

Anything with fly can see over/into the trees.  So lord of change is great against them, flamers and mounted heralds are also good.

[Reezark_SP]

49 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Anything with fly can see over/into the trees.  So lord of change is great against them, flamers and mounted heralds are also good.

Yes the Lord of Change was pretty much the only thing that did anything of note against the whole army. Vs. trees though everything else you suggested will be hitting on 5s and no rend. Meanwhile the troops in the trees (dont know their name, but the "mini" large treemen with sythes) have a 3+ save and get to reroll failed saves, then heal at the end of the combat, so I'll be very lucky if they get a wound in and if I did it'll just be healed in the next phase anyway.

Maybe mass Skyfires since they have a decent chance of causing mortal wounds?

Heralds on disc and chariot could work too I suppose.

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Reezark_SP

[Luke1705]

2 hours ago, Reezark_SP said:

Yes the Lord of Change was pretty much the only thing that did anything of note against the whole army. Vs. trees though everything else you suggested will be hitting on 5s and no rend. Meanwhile the troops in the trees (dont know their name, but the "mini" large treemen with sythes) have a 3+ save and get to reroll failed saves, then heal at the end of the combat, so I'll be very lucky if they get a wound in and if I did it'll just be healed in the next phase anyway.

Maybe mass Skyfires since they have a decent chance of causing mortal wounds?

Heralds on disc and chariot could work too I suppose.

 

Skyfires are going to struggle to see through the trees just like your spells do. Gotta get in there and tango with the skyfires in close combat or enlightened.

The tricky thing about Sylvaneth is that you can block their forest placement if you’re careful. It’s only 18” range on their spell and they can’t put the forests within 1” of your models or any terrain features, and any of the up to 3 forests have to be placed within 1” of each other. So you can kind of have an idea of where he might be able to place a forest.

Additionally, when they travel to their forests, they can’t be within 9” of you, but they need to be within 3” of a wyldwood.

TLDR: keep a model within 6” of all edges of a wood and they can’t travel to it. Smartly block areas of the board where you don’t want them to put new woods.

[Reezark_SP]

14 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Skyfires are going to struggle to see through the trees just like your spells do. Gotta get in there and tango with the skyfires in close combat or enlightened.

The tricky thing about Sylvaneth is that you can block their forest placement if you’re careful. It’s only 18” range on their spell and they can’t put the forests within 1” of your models or any terrain features, and any of the up to 3 forests have to be placed within 1” of each other. So you can kind of have an idea of where he might be able to place a forest.

Additionally, when they travel to their forests, they can’t be within 9” of you, but they need to be within 3” of a wyldwood.

TLDR: keep a model within 6” of all edges of a wood and they can’t travel to it. Smartly block areas of the board where you don’t want them to put new woods.

Thanks for your advise I will try to keep that in mind but why would Skyfires have a hard time? Its my understanding that the protection trees provide is void if the shooter or spellcaster is flying.

[Luke1705]

13 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:

Thanks for your advise I will try to keep that in mind but why would Skyfires have a hard time? Its my understanding that the protection trees provide is void if the shooter or spellcaster is flying.

You right. Brain f a r t. Just in general I wouldn’t rely too much on mortal wound output at range from skyfires now that they don’t work on 5 and 6 even if you give them +1 to hit (from the shaman for example). And -1 rend d3 damage, while good, is something the tree people are generally good at avoiding with their high base armor save for the most part.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Luke1705

[Kharneth]

I've got a question about using predatory spells to kill Pink Horrors now that I know how they're correctly used. Really, I'm just wondering what's the most effective and ideal way to use them.

Casting the spell on my first turn, whether I go first or second, is basic. On subsequent turns, I understand that if I go first then my enemy will get to move the predatory spell and will likely not hurt the pink horrors. If I go second on the second turn, I will get to control the predatory spell and attack my pink horrors but then it will be my enemy's turn before I get to use Fold Reality. If I go first and the enemy uses the predatory spell I created on the previous turn can I then unbind it with a wizard and recast it? Would that even be worth it?