AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Magnus The Blue]

1 minute ago, mmimzie said:

Yeah no extra wounds from familiars. They are only there for +1 to cast and what ever else the other do. 

Nope, read the silver tower FAQ. You can choose familiar to take a wound for the summoner. 

[Kharneth]

@Magnus The Blue thanks for providing the source. I always feel uncomfortable approaching my friends and saying "the online people say this allowed but I don't know where it says so in the rules." lol

@mmimzie thanks, that makes much better sense. I'm trying to broaden my range of enemies and have yet to find anyone with spells that extend past 18". It's nice to have a list of potential long ranged casters. 

[CountryMou3e]

Anyone played about with the vortex beast recently ? It’s a stunning model, pretty cheap in terms of points and who doesn’t love debuffs or mortals! 

Im keen to clarify whether the debuffs stack as it’s mot technically an aura , more a point and click ability 

[mmimzie]

12 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Nope, read the silver tower FAQ. You can choose familiar to take a wound for the summoner. 

good eye on that one !!! i bow before you keen eye!!

 

 

8 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Anyone played about with the vortex beast recently ? It’s a stunning model, pretty cheap in terms of points and who doesn’t love debuffs or mortals! 

Im keen to clarify whether the debuffs stack as it’s mot technically an aura , more a point and click ability 

I looked at it as another way to kill pinks, but the damage..... hmmm it's a weird model. It's nice because you don't have to cast, but it feel like it doesn't do quiet enough.

[CountryMou3e]

12 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

good eye on that one !!! i bow before you keen eye!!

 

 

I looked at it as another way to kill pinks, but the damage..... hmmm it's a weird model. It's nice because you don't have to cast, but it feel like it doesn't do quiet enough.

Assuming they stack , I think the beast + spell debuffs looks like it has potential 

[CountryMou3e]

13 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Nope, read the silver tower FAQ. You can choose familiar to take a wound for the summoner. 

If you had the +4 and fly artifact on the gaunt , would this apply to the familiars too? Assuming they’re are ‘one model’, it would ?

[MitGas]

46 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

If you had the +4 and fly artifact on the gaunt , would this apply to the familiars too? Assuming they’re are ‘one model’, it would ?

Seeing how they're removed from the table if the Gaunt Summoner dies (if someone didn't use up their wounds beforehand) and can't do anything outside of buffing him, I think it's safe to count them akin to equipment - so they'd fly alongside him. :) Obviously I've got no rules dev to quote but I think I read something similar to this ages ago regarding 40k (where someone asked if a familiar counted towards the max number of models in a transport and it didn't).

[MitGas]

On another note it looks like the guy who came up with the new Slaanesh rules hates both Tzeentch and Nurgle. The Lord of Change is unplayable against Slaanesh now and the Fiends feel like the direct answer to Blightking-heavy lists. Too bad T can't ally with Slaanesh anymore, I could use some Anti-BK units...

[Asimov]

3 hours ago, MitGas said:

On another note it looks like the guy who came up with the new Slaanesh rules hates both Tzeentch and Nurgle. The Lord of Change is unplayable against Slaanesh now and the Fiends feel like the direct answer to Blightking-heavy lists. Too bad T can't ally with Slaanesh anymore, I could use some Anti-BK units...

Yes the Lyre is disgustingt against us... Maybe the Skyfires could help to snipe it from far away. Or the combinaison of the Umbral spell portals to mitigate the aura it has. 

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, MitGas said:

On another note it looks like the guy who came up with the new Slaanesh rules hates both Tzeentch and Nurgle. The Lord of Change is unplayable against Slaanesh now and the Fiends feel like the direct answer to Blightking-heavy lists. Too bad T can't ally with Slaanesh anymore, I could use some Anti-BK units...

Not sure why the LoC can kill the infernal raptures with a single spell assuming she has ~6 wounds. Heck you can portal kill her turn 1 with a spell portal and make her useless. Infernal gate way with our command ability only needs 1 3+... that's an easy reroll.. 

 

We also dont have points cost on these models. Fiends could be heavily over costed. 

Either way the founds only get 1 barbed stinger attack each...  wow one attack thats good.... neat. 

 

Idk this seems like a dramatic take.

[Enoby]

4 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Either way the founds only get 1 barbed stinger attack each...  wow one attack thats good.... neat.

With the rest of the Slaanesh stuff, that can quite easily be 12 stingers from a unit of 3. Have a unit of 6 and it turns into 24 stingers. Points are estimated to be around 160-180 for 3 (judging  by what was said on the stream).

 

Other than that, I agree in that don't think the IE will be some kind of hard counter to  the LoC. A bit annoying, sure, but hardly something you can't deal with. 

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, CountryMou3e said:

If you had the +4 and fly artifact on the gaunt , would this apply to the familiars too? Assuming they’re are ‘one model’, it would ?

Yeah it counts as one model as per silver tower faq

 That also means you can measure two and from the familiars as well. 

 

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

With the rest of the Slaanesh stuff, that can quite easily be 12 stingers from a unit of 3. Have a unit of 6 and it turns into 24 stingers. Points are estimated to be around 160-180 for 3 (judging  by what was said on the stream).

 

Other than that, I agree in that don't think the IE will be some kind of hard counter to  the LoC. A bit annoying, sure, but hardly something you can't deal with. 

Yeah I mean that seems like it could be killy, but also seems like alot of support to turn 3 attacks into 12. I don't dot t they could be strong, but witch aelves and blight kings and so on have been strong for about 6months now, and they dont bother me none. 

 

I think your line "annoying but not something you cant deal with" sums up how anyone should feel about any decent looking release. 

[Pandamina]

What do you guys think about this list? My plan is to get first turn, summon some blue horrors and to defend against potential double turn with enlightened.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Magister (140)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Herald Of Tzeentch On Disc (140)
- Staff of Change
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (280)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 54
 

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Pandamina said:

What do you guys think about this list? My plan is to get first turn, summon some blue horrors and to defend against potential double turn with enlightened.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Magister (140)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Herald Of Tzeentch On Disc (140)
- Staff of Change
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (280)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 54
 

Only thing I dont love are the enlightend. they are good, but 6 might not be effective enough in many cases. Otherwise it's pretty solid. 

[Pandamina]

21 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Only thing I dont love are the enlightend. they are good, but 6 might not be effective enough in many cases. Otherwise it's pretty solid. 

I wish i could fit more, but it's still one of the best units in the book right now. And I believe 6 is enough for 1000 pts game anyway, as we can use Fold Reality on them early. I am more concerned about hero choices, but i don't think something can be done here, as i need at least one fast flying hero to summon and fate lore access.  

[Waiyuren]

57 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

...i need at least one fast flying hero to summon and fate lore access.  

So many questions! 😅

Do you specifically need Fate lore because it gives you glimpse the future? To me it feels too random to be good, do you get good use out of it?

How are you planning to summon blues on turn 1? Arcane Sacrifice and pendulum your own units?

Unless I'm missing something, even if you scythe both pinks then on average you'll end up just shy with 9pts. Is that why you need glimpse the future; to try to bolster your casting for the extra cast from the magister?

It seems like you're relying very heavily on lucky rolls for your summoning combos, while banking everything else on the Enlightened... Have you played this list before? Because I'd be interested to hear how it goes for you, as it's pretty different to how I play. 😁

 

Seriously, Tzeentch is amazing. So many different builds!

[Magnus The Blue]

12 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

So many questions! 😅

Do you specifically need Fate lore because it gives you glimpse the future? To me it feels too random to be good, do you get good use out of it?

How are you planning to summon blues on turn 1? Arcane Sacrifice and pendulum your own units?

Unless I'm missing something, even if you scythe both pinks then on average you'll end up just shy with 9pts. Is that why you need glimpse the future; to try to bolster your casting for the extra cast from the magister?

It seems like you're relying very heavily on lucky rolls for your summoning combos, while banking everything else on the Enlightened... Have you played this list before? Because I'd be interested to hear how it goes for you, as it's pretty different to how I play. 😁

Arcane S and Penduluming kills an average 9 horrors, so 18 blue summoning points, cast two spells and you can get out two units turn one, just one is almost guaranteed if you get the pendulum off.

On the list, I like it. Not very Lilly but should be great at wining the mission. 

I'd love to see better hero's in there but can see why you've gone for the relatively cheap ones. 

One option would be drop the second unit of horrors for acolytes and lose the pendulum so you could get the full 9 enlightenment, but that makes for a very different army. 

 

[Waiyuren]

@Magnus The Blue so you get 2pts for each pink? I honestly haven't looked at them very hard other than dropping some turn 2 blues, but I can see how that would rack up quite quickly. 

I think 6 Enlightened is probably the sweet spot for a dedicated hammer in 1k though, 9 and you're risking not having the bodies elsewhere in your list, while with 3 you often lose them too fast.

[mmimzie]

29 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

@Magnus The Blue so you get 2pts for each pink? I honestly haven't looked at them very hard other than dropping some turn 2 blues, but I can see how that would rack up quite quickly. 

I think 6 Enlightened is probably the sweet spot for a dedicated hammer in 1k though, 9 and you're risking not having the bodies elsewhere in your list, while with 3 you often lose them too fast.

I think 6 is what you can afford, but I dont feel 6 is really awesome. Most other similar units would want to be at 30, and 6 wont survive a charge from them, and 6 wont really kill the 30 in one shot reliably. 

 

But again you can't really afford more. 

[Waiyuren]

7 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I think 6 is what you can afford, but I dont feel 6 is really awesome. Most other similar units would want to be at 30, and 6 wont survive a charge from them, and 6 wont really kill the 30 in one shot reliably. 

 

But again you can't really afford more. 

Fortunately the opponent's got the same problem, so you won't see many 30+ troop blocks at 1k. But if you do, well, you fly over them, kill their support units, and take the block out with a gaunt summoner. At least that's how I try to do it (I also only run them in 3's, but my list is completely different to his so they aren't my main hammer).

[marke]

Drop pendulum, play 9 Enlightened on hooves?

[Pandamina]

16 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

So many questions! 😅

Do you specifically need Fate lore because it gives you glimpse the future? To me it feels too random to be good, do you get good use out of it?

How are you planning to summon blues on turn 1? Arcane Sacrifice and pendulum your own units?

Unless I'm missing something, even if you scythe both pinks then on average you'll end up just shy with 9pts. Is that why you need glimpse the future; to try to bolster your casting for the extra cast from the magister?

It seems like you're relying very heavily on lucky rolls for your summoning combos, while banking everything else on the Enlightened... Have you played this list before? Because I'd be interested to hear how it goes for you, as it's pretty different to how I play. 😁

 

Seriously, Tzeentch is amazing. So many different builds!

Yes i want glimpse the future as it's something i can cast profitably, because damaging spells are out of range on first turn. 20 blues is not that hard and pendulum is great offensive spell anyway.  
And yes i played couple of games with similar list last weekend, but it wasn't good enough for my taste, because our meta lack hordes and gaunt summoner completely whiffed. Quicksilver swords is great pink horrors killer btw.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 1000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 51

 

[Pandamina]

12 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I think 6 is what you can afford, but I dont feel 6 is really awesome. Most other similar units would want to be at 30, and 6 wont survive a charge from them, and 6 wont really kill the 30 in one shot reliably. 

 

But again you can't really afford more. 

We don't have much hordes here, one skaven army, one nighthaunt and my BoC, i think. They are moneywise expensive and our community is fairly new. And i can hide my enlightened behind a unit of summoned horrors if i expect them to be charged.

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, Pandamina said:

We don't have much hordes here, one skaven army, one nighthaunt and my BoC, i think. They are moneywise expensive and our community is fairly new. And i can hide my enlightened behind a unit of summoned horrors if i expect them to be charged.

It's not strictly hordes. It's big units you need to kill in one swing and enough model to survive the counter swing. You could be right and your local meta might not have this issue, and if this is the case than keep going, but:

Let's say you are fighting your average 4+ save unit. You'll do on average about 12 wounds assuming you attack first and all 6 get to fight. That means any big monster is still alive, like gordrak, a terror theist, morathi, etc. While most units like a 10man evocator unit, a 20man witch unit, or some crypt flayed, blight kings also lived through your assault. So I feel as though that at 6 enlightend on disc you really don't have a very effective unit. 

 

Again I'm not saying you g don't try it as in your meta that unit might have a niche. Though I think from my experience other unite for the same price or less can do all the same jobs that specifically a 6 man enlightend on disc unit can. Such as 10 normal tzaangors + 3 screams  the 10 normal tzaangors will pack the punch you want, while the screams will give you a small fast objective grabbing unit. 

[Pandamina]

3 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

It's not strictly hordes. It's big units you need to kill in one swing and enough model to survive the counter swing. You could be right and your local meta might not have this issue, and if this is the case than keep going, but:

Let's say you are fighting your average 4+ save unit. You'll do on average about 12 wounds assuming you attack first and all 6 get to fight. That means any big monster is still alive, like gordrak, a terror theist, morathi, etc. While most units like a 10man evocator unit, a 20man witch unit, or some crypt flayed, blight kings also lived through your assault. So I feel as though that at 6 enlightend on disc you really don't have a very effective unit. 

 

Again I'm not saying you g don't try it as in your meta that unit might have a niche. Though I think from my experience other unite for the same price or less can do all the same jobs that specifically a 6 man enlightend on disc unit can. Such as 10 normal tzaangors + 3 screams  the 10 normal tzaangors will pack the punch you want, while the screams will give you a small fast objective grabbing unit. 

I think you forgot that this is a 1000 pts game. If you bring something big you still need to score objectives. 10 man evocator unit is already half of the roster, and i think our sacrosanct player will never take his evocators in 10s, only in 5s. It's for example a second unbind attempt, second target for after combat mortal wounds and they are already doing great in 5s in combat.

And again, why should i ever attack first? I can't charge on first turn most of the time. I want my Enlightened to protect me from potential double turn, so i castle them behind summoned horrors to get that reroll if someone dares to come. If not i can just sit on objectives and win by mission. And if i need to charge something really bad, i will send horrors first to die and get me rerolls. I can even return Enlightened with Fold Reality. Normal tzaangors unfortunately don't have the punch i want, even in full unit, and without additional attack and shaman they are just bad.