AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Duke of Mousillon]

The beast does not have a 50% chance to throw d6 mortals. It has a 1/3 chance to theow d6 and 1/6 to throw d3. This would average out to 1.5 mortal wounds per turn if I am not mistaking. Which yes. Tzaangors would need 3 wizards close by to do that on average.

To your lack of tzaangor damage. Do you play double blades? Shields are not the way to go. The sheer amount of attacks should leave a mark in most things even without rend. At least if you have a full unit of 10 of those attacking (33 blades mutants and leader have on additional, 21 beaka on the charge leader has one additional).

If your tzaangors do not fight first they will probably get beaten up. They must be the ones charging. If they are widdeld down on range before getting into melee yeah they will not perform. They must play more aggressive if thats your problem. Even if they just kill screens its better then killing nothing while being shot down. If the full unit attacks on the charge with just all out attack (which you should have the command points for) they still put almost 5 wounds into a 2+ safe unit. That is without any rend. 

I have not yet played tzaangors myself because I barely come around to converting lately but if you have a specific situation that you are underwhelmed by Tzaangors in please share your experience.

[Jabbuk]

5 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

The beast does not have a 50% chance to throw d6 mortals. It has a 1/3 chance to theow d6 and 1/6 to throw d3. This would average out to 1.5 mortal wounds per turn if I am not mistaking. Which yes. Tzaangors would need 3 wizards close by to do that on average.

To your lack of tzaangor damage. Do you play double blades? Shields are not the way to go. The sheer amount of attacks should leave a mark in most things even without rend. At least if you have a full unit of 10 of those attacking (33 blades mutants and leader have on additional, 21 beaka on the charge leader has one additional).

If your tzaangors do not fight first they will probably get beaten up. They must be the ones charging. If they are widdeld down on range before getting into melee yeah they will not perform. They must play more aggressive if thats your problem. Even if they just kill screens its better then killing nothing while being shot down. If the full unit attacks on the charge with just all out attack (which you should have the command points for) they still put almost 5 wounds into a 2+ safe unit. That is without any rend. 

I have not yet played tzaangors myself because I barely come around to converting lately but if you have a specific situation that you are underwhelmed by Tzaangors in please share your experience.

Thanks for taking the time. Regarding the beast, I was under the impression that 2D6 thrown is about 50% chance to do at least D6 mortal, since they do it on 5s and 6s. I'm probably wrong. I haven't done the math exactly.

For Tzaangors I do am using double blades, I watched the talk with Daniil on WHW and it was very enlightening. I do try to always make them charge too. And play agressively. I guess my problem comes mainly from the fact I've been playing Seraphon too much lately with double/triple bastiladon and when I threw them in, they didn't do squat. I'll wait to play more games against more factions to get a better idea.

 

[Duke of Mousillon]

8 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I was under the impression that 2D6 thrown is about 50% chance to do at least D6 mortal,

Oh I beg your pardon. I ignored the rolling 2d6. I thought you only rolled 1d6. If you roll 2d6 and pick the better you should be at an average of 2.3 mortal wounds per turn. Not quite the average you would get from 1d6 damage every turn but more then I calculated in the beginning. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

26 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

double/triple bastiladon

Well. Against the only 1+ safe unit in the game even -1 rend from your spell will not change anything as long as its on its top brackets.

But as I said. Theoretically if your throw those 54 dice at the dinos face it should roll 4-5 1s on the armor safes and take some damage as long as you used all out attack. Which is not nothing.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Ganigumo]

proper FAQ is up, mostly just fixing things people were edge-shooting about.
Cult Demagogue was nerfed, it now only applies to the first spell cast.
Kairics can mix & match weapon options again (probably because the box didn't have enough for 20 with dual blades...)
Heralds are no longer monsters.

I'm a bit sad they didn't take the opportunity to touch up cult of the transient form and tzaangor greatblades, I put a question in about both in the FAQ.
Cult remained unchanged and was/is awful.
Greatblades being worse than dual weapons just feels like a trap when building the minis. They don't need to be better but having them be worse is questionable.

[Duke of Mousillon]

Well I am for one even more concerned about the Gaunt Summoner still not being a mortal but staying a demon. They removed the monster keywords from the heralds but are stoic about their mistake on making Gaunt a demon? Really?

Yes I know. I still refer to it as a mistake and will keep doing so. He is leeding the mortal warscrolls in the book and not where demon heroes should be.

[Jabbuk]

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

proper FAQ is up, mostly just fixing things people were edge-shooting about.
Cult Demagogue was nerfed, it now only applies to the first spell cast.
Kairics can mix & match weapon options again (probably because the box didn't have enough for 20 with dual blades...)
Heralds are no longer monsters.

I'm a bit sad they didn't take the opportunity to touch up cult of the transient form and tzaangor greatblades, I put a question in about both in the FAQ.
Cult remained unchanged and was/is awful.
Greatblades being worse than dual weapons just feels like a trap when building the minis. They don't need to be better but having them be worse is questionable.

I for one am super glad that the automatic castings are still generating FP. It made 0 sense to not generate any because we not doing a proper "casting roll" per say.

[MitGas]

4 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Well I am for one even more concerned about the Gaunt Summoner still not being a mortal but staying a demon. They removed the monster keywords from the heralds but are stoic about their mistake on making Gaunt a demon? Really?

Yes I know. I still refer to it as a mistake and will keep doing so. He is leeding the mortal warscrolls in the book and not where demon heroes should be.

Yeah, that‘s a big oversight, at least he wasn‘t portrayed as a pure demon but something inbetween before… dunno why GW can‘t fix stuff properly 🤷🏻‍♂️ There‘s certainly not just room but a whole silver tower for improvement when it comes to these small, easily avoidable errors. 
 

This oddity aside, I‘m still not sure the GS is wirth it anyways, except as a heavily overpriced (at least the one on foot) transport tactic

[Duke of Mousillon]

2 hours ago, MitGas said:

at least the one on foot

I am afraid even the disc version is overpriced but I might be wrong

[Bayul]

18 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I am afraid even the disc version is overpriced but I might be wrong

He's cheaper in S2D now (240), so there might be adjustment in the future. Different Spell Lore though.

[MitGas]

6 hours ago, Bayul said:

He's cheaper in S2D now (240), so there might be adjustment in the future. Different Spell Lore though.

Could be but I wouldn‘t count on it. I‘m a bit miffed as the GS on foot is my favorite mini but it makes zero sense to take him ATM. At least the Curseling (both versions are among my favourite minus) is now a proper choice to me, so at least I won something too. 🥹

I‘m torn between getting the new box or not (I‘m impatient). I like the new Chosen but ultimately I want Tzeentch-specific Chosen (which will surely come one day as all other God-forces got them… and Exalted Sorcerers for AoS in Curseling-armor style will be all I ever hoped for in a unit for Tzeentch AoS) - that said, I could see a couple of Slaves working really quite well in DoT now even without their S2D buffs. Chosen aren‘t exactly my top picks for that but the models are cool outside of the holes and scratches (I think Varanguard and Warriors are probably better for us)… oh well, still got a few days to decide. 😇

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

Gaunt Summoner on Foot has definitely has its turn as a staple though.

[Malakithe]

With the new StD book coming what could be the best coalition units to bring in? I for one, as a Total War player, like the idea of going heavy Tzeentch Warriors to replace the very meh Acolytes and Tzaangors.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Honestly im most interested in Untamed Beasts for a cheap screen because our only codex options are Screamers and Foot Enlightened, the Warshrine for a priest.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Duke of Mousillon]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

like the idea of going heavy Tzeentch Warriors

Me too. I prayed for mortal tzeentch models but never got any. So coalition it is. Problem. They do not fill battleline slots anymore. And as my lists are right now, between battleline and Heroes I am often short on points already. 

Most interesting would be I guess the warshrine with the -1 to wound prayer? 

If you want to play an army that looks like Tzeentch from Total War, which I can respect because it looks awesome. Not like the sorry acolyte model. But if you wanna play that you should be playing Slaves to Darkness, paint your army in a tzeentch colour scheme and ally in 1 Lord of Change. And maybe do a tiny bit of conversion to make like the helmets look more tzeentchy or smth.

The sad part about that option is they killed the tzeentch keyword for most units. Its basically only worth for wizards now. Which forces you to give at least one other unit the tzeentch keyword too. And even then I would not be 100% sold on having to make wizards tzeentch marked. The buff non-wizard units get from the tzeentch keyword looks sad compared to the other marks. I guess tzeentch has one good banner at least. So literally bringing an all tzeentch marked force in Slaves to darkness would probably feel bad to play but you can still make the colour scheme all tzeentch.

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Me too. I prayed for mortal tzeentch models but never got any. So coalition it is. Problem. They do not fill battleline slots anymore. And as my lists are right now, between battleline and Heroes I am often short on points already. 

Most interesting would be I guess the warshrine with the -1 to wound prayer? 

If you want to play an army that looks like Tzeentch from Total War, which I can respect because it looks awesome. Not like the sorry acolyte model. But if you wanna play that you should be playing Slaves to Darkness, paint your army in a tzeentch colour scheme and ally in 1 Lord of Change. And maybe do a tiny bit of conversion to make like the helmets look more tzeentchy or smth.

The sad part about that option is they killed the tzeentch keyword for most units. Its basically only worth for wizards now. Which forces you to give at least one other unit the tzeentch keyword too. And even then I would not be 100% sold on having to make wizards tzeentch marked. The buff non-wizard units get from the tzeentch keyword looks sad compared to the other marks. I guess tzeentch has one good banner at least. So literally bringing an all tzeentch marked force in Slaves to darkness would probably feel bad to play but you can still make the colour scheme all tzeentch.

Bah I forgot about that no battleline part. A LoC can be allied into StD? Didnt think they fit but I usually dont look at allies rules

[Duke of Mousillon]

Yes. Disciples of tzeentch is an ally option for StD. And Lord of Change is 400 points. So in a 2000 point game he would fit perfectly into the ally slot. 

Just remember my warning about the tzeentch mark rules wise. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

But I would totally play that all tzeentch coloured scheme in StD. My initial thought before the new tzeentch tome was "If we do not finally get proper mortal tzeentch units i will just play StD. Every chaos god army has a proper mortal roster. We have to get one too". We did no get any mortal tzeentch units.

Then i saw what they did to our boy the Tzeentch Chaos Mark in the new StD book. So I am debating if I will do it or not.

[Malakithe]

5 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

But I would totally play that all tzeentch coloured scheme in StD. My initial thought before the new tzeentch tome was "If we do not finally get proper mortal tzeentch units i will just play StD. Every chaos god army has a proper mortal roster. We have to get one too". We did no get any mortal tzeentch units.

Then i saw what they did to our boy the Tzeentch Chaos Mark in the new StD book. So I am debating if I will do it or not.

Oh im going heavy into StD now. I wont be painting them up in god-specific colors though so I can change the Marks. But bringing a big bird might be nice. I wouldnt necessarily need to have Tzeentch Marks all over the place and just use it for a MW machine gun or something. 

Related question: Do coalition wizards get access to the spells of their allies or are they just using what they have on their own warscroll? Could a LoC cast the StD Sigil endless spell? I have no idea how the coalition stuff works.

[Duke of Mousillon]

They do not get access to spells. They are only with their warscroll spell plus generics. No spell lore allies. 

And no the StD endless spells have to be cast by StD wizards. Lord of Change does not count if I remember correct. 

[Malakithe]

12 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

They do not get access to spells. They are only with their warscroll spell plus generics. No spell lore allies. 

And no the StD endless spells have to be cast by StD wizards. Lord of Change does not count if I remember correct. 

Yeah I actually just read the FAQ lol I read it and was like 'fuuuuuuu'

Okay then...now the next question is: whats the point of adding a LoC to StD? 400pts is a lot for a single model that cant do much

[Duke of Mousillon]

His warscroll spell is big damage and he gives an AoE +1 to cast to your other wizards as long as you gave them the Tzeentch Mark of Chaos. 

It is probably not the best choice. Allies are most times underwhelming. But i tjink Lord of Change is not flat out bad as an ally if you have other wizards to buff.

[Bayul]

@Malakithe @Duke of Mousillon I was inspired by Total War: Warhammer aswell when I made my army list for S2D. You can make good use of the TZEENTCH Keyword in S2D by taking a Gaunt Summoner on Disc and deepstrike very slow Chosen or Warriors. When you choose Cabalists every hero in your army can cast spells and I even found a purpose for Acolytes! You can find my list here: 

 

[Bayul]

Does anybody remember if the warscrolls from the Arcane Cataclysm set are identical to the present battletome?

edit: And does a box of 20 Acolytes include 2x complete units? I'll only need 10 and would like to sell the other half.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Bayul

[MitGas]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:48 AM, Duke of Mousillon said:

Me too. I prayed for mortal tzeentch models but never got any. So coalition it is. Problem. They do not fill battleline slots anymore. And as my lists are right now, between battleline and Heroes I am often short on points already. 

Most interesting would be I guess the warshrine with the -1 to wound prayer? 

If you want to play an army that looks like Tzeentch from Total War, which I can respect because it looks awesome. Not like the sorry acolyte model. But if you wanna play that you should be playing Slaves to Darkness, paint your army in a tzeentch colour scheme and ally in 1 Lord of Change. And maybe do a tiny bit of conversion to make like the helmets look more tzeentchy or smth.

The sad part about that option is they killed the tzeentch keyword for most units. Its basically only worth for wizards now. Which forces you to give at least one other unit the tzeentch keyword too. And even then I would not be 100% sold on having to make wizards tzeentch marked. The buff non-wizard units get from the tzeentch keyword looks sad compared to the other marks. I guess tzeentch has one good banner at least. So literally bringing an all tzeentch marked force in Slaves to darkness would probably feel bad to play but you can still make the colour scheme all tzeentch.

If only the S2D units weren‘t full of scratches, torn fabric and holes in their boots. Tzeentch armor should be much more pristine. 
 

They certainly messed that up for us. One can only hope we‘ll get proper warriors, maybe with a new Fatemaster…