AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[MitGas]

8 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

It is a strange choice of hill to die on, to be sure.

Oh, I find you arguing against facts strange too but whatever. Look up the old publications if you don't wanna believe me. 🤷‍♂️

[Fellman]

11 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Page 24 of the 2.0 Disciples of Tzeentch battletome, under the section "Lords of the Silver Towers"
 

Maybe it was retconned in the new book or they've been inconsistent on them, but thats what the previous battletome says verbatim.

Page 20 of the Evercosen batteltome from 2015 thay ar demons but things change in 7years

[MitGas]

4 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I apologize. I think its a retcon. It feels like they dropped the mortal stuff to make the Eater of Tomes' death and the fallout of it more significant. I always kinda felt the whole "True name winning" thing Archaon did to them really clashed with them being mortal though. That's classic "real world" daemonology.

Yeah, learning of their true name to kill them (as written in the Silver Tower game) definitely made them appear to be daemons. Also, the whole "honored guest of cults" shtick at first didn't really suggest that they are/were mortals but something else. Perhaps a form of mortal daemons. 😙

[NinthMusketeer]

29 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Oh, I find you arguing against facts strange too but whatever. Look up the old publications if you don't wanna believe me. 🤷‍♂️

No. Yours is the claim presented without evidence, the burden of proof is on you. Show us something from this century, at least.

Edited October 5, 2022 by NinthMusketeer

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

No. Yours is the claim presented without evidence, the burden of proof is on you. Show us something from this century, at least.

Why would I need to? I don‘t need to tell show you proof that water is wet either, it just is. You simply don’t know enough about our patron‘s first minis‘ paintjobs, your misguided Nurgle avatar is enough proof that you‘re not a true Champion of the one true Chaos God! 
 

Bit just to show you that I‘m right and you are not (and because I‘m petty as heck) - yellow and blue were the dominant colors at the start, there are plenty of other examples (first rubric marine paintjob was almost completely yellow, Egrimm van Horstmann‘s armor too and lots of others…. ). I hope you believe me now. 

 

[NinthMusketeer]

No one claimed otherwise. I even specified some time ago that I specifically did not mean the original colors.

[Adammck66]

How are peoples list ideas coming on?

I find any units that I want to reinforce just add up so fast, and no idea on how many heroes to use.

 

Heroes for me that I like the look of are LoC (cba for Kairos cause I made normal), Gaunt on disc (must find a disc for mine now), Fluxmaster, Disc Magister and Curseling

The Fluxmaster or also Changecaster could be summoned, but also debating guild of summoners to save points but then lose summon potentials.

 

Just so may feckin heroes to choose from 😅

Edited October 5, 2022 by Adammck66
Change for change god

[MitGas]

52 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

No one claimed otherwise. I even specified some time ago that I specifically did not mean the original colors.

Then why argue against my statement so fervently? 🙄🙄🙄 I’ve only added to your statement as you were the one to say his dice aren’t ideal… they obviously don‘t sport the vanilla/classic/typical color combo of today but the colors still work well enough for modern Tzeentch and Tzeentch used many colors before that are now seldom used (e.g. red and yellow) or added some subtle differences (like more greenish blues, when before it used to be more regal blues). Perhaps you should fully embrace Tzeentch in all his colors and take a look at the history of the single best thing aspect of Warhammer before you try to educate others and accept the info you are given (one could say you got owned there, you got your proof after all) - so get rid of that disgusting (and dumb!!!) Nurgling avatar that has absolutely no place in this thread and just enjoy this blast to the past instead of being so antagonistic. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[MitGas]

25 minutes ago, Adammck66 said:

How are peoples list ideas coming on?

I find any units that I want to reinforce just add up so fast, and no idea on how many heroes to use.

 

Heroes for me that I like the look of are LoC (cba for Kairos cause I made normal), Gaunt on disc (must find a disc for mine now), Fluxmaster, Disc Magister and Curseling

The Fluxmaster or also Changecaster could be summoned, but also debating guild of summoners to save points but then lose summon potentials.

 

Just so may feckin heroes to choose from 😅

I‘ve got similar favorites, although the Gaunt Summoner (either variant but who really picks the one on foot now) is no auto-include for me any longer. Maybe I’m too bad to see to appreciate his new abilities but they sound much better to me in theory. I still find the Fatemaster appealing as I like Tzaangors on disc. The Fluxmaster and Curseling are two amazing picks now IMO. 
 

Thaumaturge still seems decent enough  on paper but I‘ve had very mixed results with it in past games so I think that‘s just me enjoying a Tzeentch hero that reminds me of the good old times when Tzeentch heroes were not just great sorcerers but deadly combatants as well (I always liked that we had brains and brawn) … the Blue Scribes - after not adding fate points - aren‘t really that interesting either now, which is a big change for my lists and probably many others‘ lists as well.
 

I never really been a huge fan of magisters before but the utility of summoning a spawn can‘t be argued with, so I‘ll use them more often. 
 

I hope my copy arrives this week… planning is much more fun when you don‘t have to stop youtube vids for the info. 😇 I might aim for Guild of Summoners now as that way I can use my chickens and fate point generation has become easier (as well as cheaper LoCs). Eternal conflag I need to think about and Kairics are too bad ob the whole so pyrofane is more fun than sound but I will definitely try it. 

 

 

[Adammck66]

Damn I forgot about fatemaster too, hes amazing just wish theyd update his sculpt, tho it isnt hard to make one.

Gaunt on disc is nice but it depends on matchup and also hes just so expensive to use alongside a LoC unless you hero spam.

Curseling is amazing especially for destiny dice but I think him or fatemaster are the 2 interchangeables.

I feel ya with Ogroid. Love it and it really isnt too bad, nice melee and can give a tome I guess.

 Consider Guild too since it lets me spend 400 elsewhere but I only have the one so maybe wasted.

Id go them or Host Arcanum now, maybe conflag if I ever get a bunch of Daemons to try out

[Hannibal]

1 hour ago, Adammck66 said:

How are peoples list ideas coming on?

Well, I bought this book just to be able to field my flamers / exalted flamers. I don´t care wether this might be a good idea or not, it´s just so that I can utilize my whole collection.

 

1 hour ago, Adammck66 said:

I find any units that I want to reinforce just add up so fast, and no idea on how many heroes to use.

Points are tight and the heros are expensive. I feel you can´t get everything you like to. It also seems to me that with each iteration of Tzeentch Battletomes the army starts to become smaller.

 

1 hour ago, Adammck66 said:

Heroes for me that I like the look of are LoC (cba for Kairos cause I made normal), Gaunt on disc (must find a disc for mine now), Fluxmaster, Disc Magister and Curseling

The Fluxmaster or also Changecaster could be summoned, but also debating guild of summoners to save points but then lose summon potentials.

I like – in no particular order:

Curseling, cause he gets full rerolls natively and he´s a 2 caster. Give him the trait that brings undeniable casts on doubles.

Fluxmaster due to his spell that gives you fate points.

Magister, cause he offers a spell to summon spawns. And I love spawns. I own a pretty large collection of them.

Kairos due to the fact that he´s a better LoC in any way.

Changeling: a 2 cast and mobility shenangans. Though no warscroll spell which limits his 2 cast.

Fatemaster just for the +1 to wound.

 

I guess you have to have a plan and choose your heroes according to it.

For example I like the idea of spawn summoning and rerolls on casting, therefore I´m thinking about Kairos / LoC with Tome of Eyes (endless spell, automatically cast first round to get rerolls), Curseling, Magister. That´s already at least 695 points spent (and up to 750 if Kairos / disc for Magister). And that´s too much, because we only play 1000 to 1250 points in my area.

If I´d like to go the summoning route via fate points, I think I´d choose Kairos, Curseling, Fluxmaster.

Ranged damage output Curseling (endless spells and his own shooting attack), Kairos/LoC, Fatemaster.

Therefore I think I´m going to scratch build a Curseling these days and buy a Kairos/LoC just to get the basics.

 

Kairos / LoC and Curseling also heavily ****** with opponents magic / endless spells. If curseling succesfully casts a spell during opponents turn via his ability, the opponent even can´t dispell it because warscrolls tell that dispelling is only "in your opponents turn".

 

HTG

Edited October 5, 2022 by Hannibal

[Duke of Mousillon]

3 hours ago, MitGas said:

I never really been a huge fan of magisters before but the utility of summoning a spawn can‘t be argued with, so I‘ll use them more often. 

This. I always liked his utility. The same for Kairos old spell. The same for the OG Thaumaturge Fireball spell making Brimstones. RIP. But Magister was never "good". He did not change since the last tome. Him being suddenly so good? I think he is overhyped by some for example in that Warhammer Weekly podcast about the new tome. The only thing that changed is you can suicide himself to make the Incarnate go wild and my personal opinion is that the Incarnate should be removed from play or reworked. I do not like those things.

Edit: I completley overlooked how his double cast change. Yeah just ignore the "hasnt changed since the last tome" part. Im talking shite here.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Duke of Mousillon]

My list efforts are focusing in on Tzaangors. Thinking about running either 3 Tzaangors of 10. Or 1 Tzaangor block of 20 Which I focus my buff efforts on. Sadly I am really afraid of Bounty Hunters ripping through my Tzaangors like butter. So i think about incorporating a unit of Pinks with 1 Blue in them to have staying power somewhere. At the same time I am struggling with points. I want to play one chicken because I put a lot of effort into converting mine. So either I start with it on the table or I play guild of summoners and summon in my first chicken? But then my Battleline would be more expensive. I will not use Kairics until I actually have a conversion for them that looks less terrible. So other then Guild of Summoners, Host Arcanum would be giving me Screamers Battleline and Host Duplicitous could make the 20 Tzaangor block unretreatable from. 

Units that I think about using to buff Tzaangors:

Curseling, Magister. Because 2 Fate Lore spells are needed. Shield of Fate and Arcane Suggestion. Could be a Gaunt Summoner too.  

Fatemaster for plus 1 to wound

Tzaangor Englightened/ Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc but the disc variant is way too expensive for most lists in my head

Allying in Contorted Epitome for rerolling hit rolls of 1. 

Changecaster for rend

Gaunt Summoner on Disc for teleporting them into the front but they have run and charge so they are not slow by themselves. Sadly they lost the Keyword to interact with the Great Brayshamans movement buff.

Purple Sun for rend

Right with all those buffs which, I am not saying I can fit in the list, they would be 3 attacks/ 2+ rerolling 1s to hit/2+ to wound/-3 rend/1 damage and 2 beak attacks/3+ rerolling 1s to hit/2+ to wound/-3 rend/1 damage. The leader and the mutants have 2/1 more attacks respectively. 5+ Armor 5+ Ward Ignore spells on a 4+. And units in combat with them cannot recieve commands. 10 of them throw out 54 attacks on the charge. 33 of those are blades 21 beaks on the charge. If you play 20 you will not get all of them into melee at the same time I recon but it lets them survive a bit of shooting hopefully before they get into melee. That being said. This is ofcourse the dream scenario that will not play out like that but even with a couple less buffs. They will murder anything they touch. 

[Domize]

1 hour ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

This. I always liked his utility. The same for Kairos old spell. The same for the OG Thaumaturge Fireball spell making Brimstones. RIP. But Magister was never "good". He did not change since the last tome. Him being suddenly so good? I think he is overhyped by some for example in that Warhammer Weekly podcast about the new tome. The only thing that changed is you can suicide himself to make the Incarnate go wild and my personal opinion is that the Incarnate should be removed from play or reworked. I do not like those things.

He was improved significantly imo. The main thing that changed was that his ability to get a second cast is no longer reliant on a double on the dice roll. If the first cast is successul, you immediately get a second cast - and with all the casting buffs, such as re-rolls from Tome/Cogs, +1 from LoC etc. he can very easily become a 145pt 2-cast wizard.

That's not even factoring in the new +1 to his save, and the fact that him turning into a spawn is no longer on a dice roll. You can also avoid turning into a spawn completely by taking the Cult Demagogue command trait if he's your general. 

One of the biggest glow ups imo!

Edit: Also, since he's got the only Spawn spell (RIP Kairos spell) he's very good with Arcane Sacrifice to mess with any pesky ranged units from 27" away, tying them up with a spawn.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Domize

[Ganigumo]

6 hours ago, Fellman said:

Page 20 of the Evercosen batteltome from 2015 thay ar demons but things change in 7years

 

6 hours ago, MitGas said:

Yeah, learning of their true name to kill them (as written in the Silver Tower game) definitely made them appear to be daemons. Also, the whole "honored guest of cults" shtick at first didn't really suggest that they are/were mortals but something else. Perhaps a form of mortal daemons. 😙

I'm pretty sure Daemon princes are also bound by the "true name" rules, which is what I think is going on here. Mortal sorcerers granted daemonhood, but it seems like the lore is a bit fuzzy around what gaunt summoners are. Haven't gotten a chance to read through the lore in the new tome though, so maybe its cleaned up now. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

@Domize ****** it. I completely forgot how odd his old double spell cast worked. My bad thanks.

[NinthMusketeer]

6 hours ago, MitGas said:

Then why argue against my statement so fervently? 🙄🙄🙄 I’ve only added to your statement as you were the one to say his dice aren’t ideal… they obviously don‘t sport the vanilla/classic/typical color combo of today but the colors still work well enough for modern Tzeentch and Tzeentch used many colors before that are now seldom used (e.g. red and yellow) or added some subtle differences (like more greenish blues, when before it used to be more regal blues). Perhaps you should fully embrace Tzeentch in all his colors and take a look at the history of the single best thing aspect of Warhammer before you try to educate others and accept the info you are given (one could say you got owned there, you got your proof after all) - so get rid of that disgusting (and dumb!!!) Nurgling avatar that has absolutely no place in this thread and just enjoy this blast to the past instead of being so antagonistic. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I never argued against the original colors, and explicitly stated from the start that I was not. I referred to the "classic" Tzeentch colors readily apparent on the model lineup, and there has been no evidence or argument against that. Instead there has been repeated deflection, pointless antagonism, and ad hominem.

[Adammck66]

Just noticed the Start Collecting Tzeentch box is no more, damn. Thought it might be due to 40k not having use for the disciples box.

I have LoC, Shaman, Gaunt on disc, Magister on Disc, Ogroid.

20 tzaan, 20 kairoc, 6 of each discgor and 3 screamers.

Absolutelt struggling to think how to use them lol. Also sad my tzaan have just 1 command and now useless greatblades

[Halkbat]

Great blades can be repurposed as enlightened on foot.

[Jabbuk]

9 hours ago, MitGas said:

I‘ve got similar favorites, although the Gaunt Summoner (either variant but who really picks the one on foot now) is no auto-include for me any longer. Maybe I’m too bad to see to appreciate his new abilities but they sound much better to me in theory. I still find the Fatemaster appealing as I like Tzaangors on disc. The Fluxmaster and Curseling are two amazing picks now IMO. 
 

Thaumaturge still seems decent enough  on paper but I‘ve had very mixed results with it in past games so I think that‘s just me enjoying a Tzeentch hero that reminds me of the good old times when Tzeentch heroes were not just great sorcerers but deadly combatants as well (I always liked that we had brains and brawn) … the Blue Scribes - after not adding fate points - aren‘t really that interesting either now, which is a big change for my lists and probably many others‘ lists as well.
 

I never really been a huge fan of magisters before but the utility of summoning a spawn can‘t be argued with, so I‘ll use them more often. 
 

I hope my copy arrives this week… planning is much more fun when you don‘t have to stop youtube vids for the info. 😇 I might aim for Guild of Summoners now as that way I can use my chickens and fate point generation has become easier (as well as cheaper LoCs). Eternal conflag I need to think about and Kairics are too bad ob the whole so pyrofane is more fun than sound but I will definitely try it. 

 

 

Magister on Disc, paired with Cult-Demagog trait is incredible. You can just pass your bad DD as doubles and they will auto-cast, without the fear of blowing up AND they'll count as 2FP each cast. On the rules, you can pick which effect comes first so Cult-Demagog trait nulifies his bad trait. He has really good stats, is cheap and can summon Spawns. Pretty much auto include for me.

[Sinfullyvannila]

8 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

This. I always liked his utility. The same for Kairos old spell. The same for the OG Thaumaturge Fireball spell making Brimstones. RIP. But Magister was never "good". He did not change since the last tome. Him being suddenly so good? I think he is overhyped by some for example in that Warhammer Weekly podcast about the new tome. The only thing that changed is you can suicide himself to make the Incarnate go wild and my personal opinion is that the Incarnate should be removed from play or reworked. I do not like those things.

Edit: I completley overlooked how his double cast change. Yeah just ignore the "hasnt changed since the last tome" part. Im talking shite here.

It's his extra save on the disc and cult demagogue interaction. You get to pick which doubles proc goes off in his second spell. Spawns are better now than they used to be too IIRC they didn't fully heal within range of a successful spell.

 

He was still underated back then imo just because he was so cheap.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Halkbat said:

Great blades can be repurposed as enlightened on foot.

 

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

 

I'm pretty sure Daemon princes are also bound by the "true name" rules, which is what I think is going on here. Mortal sorcerers granted daemonhood, but it seems like the lore is a bit fuzzy around what gaunt summoners are. Haven't gotten a chance to read through the lore in the new tome though, so maybe its cleaned up now. 

That's just dumb writing though if true in the case of a demon prince. They'd never be able to get anything done. As soon as they ascend their lieutenants would abuse the hell out of that. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, Adammck66 said:

Just noticed the Start Collecting Tzeentch box is no more, damn. Thought it might be due to 40k not having use for the disciples box.

I have LoC, Shaman, Gaunt on disc, Magister on Disc, Ogroid.

20 tzaan, 20 kairoc, 6 of each discgor and 3 screamers.

Absolutelt struggling to think how to use them lol. Also sad my tzaan have just 1 command and now useless greatblades

Even if I don't put them in my lists I'd summon in 3 screamers 9/10 games

[Ganigumo]

20 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

 

That's just dumb writing though if true in the case of a demon prince. They'd never be able to get anything done. As soon as they ascend their lieutenants would abuse the hell out of that. 

Did a bit of googling on this and found some 40k discussions around it, but nothing for AoS but daemons are mostly the same across the two.
Basically it amounted to everyone having a "True name" (even non daemons), which is the name of the soul, and since daemons are all soul thats why it holds power over them, but the "true name" isn't the person's given name its some inherent quality of a soul. Its usually difficult to learn one's own true name but it can be done through stuff like powerful magic or whatever.

Does seem like a bit of a cop out, but basically if James becomes a Daemon Prince it doesn't matter if people know his name is james because it was never his "True name".

[NinthMusketeer]

It is a metamorphosis, a total transformation of being. A lot of factors come into play while others are removed; they can no longer die, they require magic/worship to summon & sustain them, they are utterly slaved to the will of their god, they can be affected by bindings and wards against daemons, etc. Getting a new name is pretty minor in comparison, and it is probably one the god gives them at the moment of ascension.