AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grimrock]

21 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

Why is your argument the truth and am I wrong?
I'm assuming that the wording of any FAQ is applied to all the cases with the same wording. You are assuming that the game didn't contain any wording and all the cases must be explained, as a player of a lot of games that is unthinkable to me.

Please tell me a FAQ that said "as count" implies all the possible effects.

Sorry, I've removed the 'wrong' part because it was overly antagonistic. 

The problem is you're taking an FAQ that is specifically clearing up a different rule and using it as an excuse to change a rule to be the way you want it. The reason the FAQ on 'counts as their movement' was needed is there was no indication on whether that instance of 'counts as' impacted their ability to use other rules. Similarly, there is no indication in the rules that 'count as slain' is meant to prevent 'Split and Split Again' from being used.  Of course 'count as' does imply that a fleeing model is not explicitly slain. The problem is we don't know what that entails. We don't know if they count as slain for the purposes of triggers, victory conditions, healing, or anything else. In the absence of a clarification one could assume it means anything or nothing. Since we have no way of knowing which assumptions are correct and which aren't we are stuck going back to the rule as written.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Grimrock

[Nezzhil]

2 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Sorry, I've removed the 'wrong' part because it was overly antagonistic. 

The problem is you're taking an FAQ that is specifically clearing up a different rule and using it as an excuse to change a rule to be the way you want it. The reason the FAQ on 'counts as their movement' was needed is there was no indication on whether that instance of 'counts as' impacted their ability to use other rules. Similarly, there is no indication in the rules that 'count as slain' is meant to prevent 'Split and Split Again' from being used.  Of course 'count as' does imply that a fleeing model is not explicitly slain. The problem is we don't know what that entails. We don't know if they count as slain for the purposes of triggers, victory conditions, healing, or anything else. In the absence of a clarification one could assume it means anything or nothing. Since we have no way of knowing which assumptions are correct and which aren't we are stuck going back to the rule as written.

No problem, I'm 100% agree with you 😄

[Aelford]

I’m back to painting my Tzeentch. I’m going for a little different. An MSU approach, with hopefully some MW output from the Tzaangor totems. 
 

Let me know what you think of this list. An improvements I could make. 
 

HostD

Fateskimmer, Will of Phantom Lord, Brand of Spirit Daemon, Unchecked Mutation.

Fluxmaster, Treason of Tzeentch.

Changecaster, Bolt of Tzeentch.

Blue Scribes, Tzeentch’s Firestorm.

Magister, Glimpse the Future.

5x10 Tzaangors

3x10 Kairic Acolytes

2x9 Untamed Beasts

Geminids. 

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Aelford said:

I’m back to painting my Tzeentch. I’m going for a little different. An MSU approach, with hopefully some MW output from the Tzaangor totems. 
 

Let me know what you think of this list. An improvements I could make. 

It's an interesting concept and I've heard of others doing it before but never looked into it myself just because it seems kinda gimmicky (speaking about the totems vs wizards specifically). I just can't like Tzaangors currently.. maybe they'll get a little boost in one of the Broken Realms books? If you try it out I would always be keen to hear about it.



Speaking of trying things out, I've made up 2 lists today that I plan to try out this week:

Devolve + Skyfires

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Be'Lakor (240)
- Allies
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 340 / 400
Wounds: 94

I kind of want to run GoS for this one actually but I'll figure that out after a game or two. Basic idea is get Kairos casting 4 spells and throwing Devolve through the Spellportal to pull something close enough to blast it with those 3 other spells. Skyfires because they're great despite what some of you may say 😉. A bit gimmicky, but I do feel more secure having Skyfires and 6 Screamers for free instead of 6 squishy wizards.

Exalted Flamer Spam

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Fateskimmer, Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot (140)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Fatemaster (120)

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Units
3 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (300)
2 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (200)

Battalions
Aether-eater Host (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Tome of Eyes (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95

This is a take on some of the HA lists I've seen out there with more emphasis on the shooting (though you take a hit in screening by losing Pinks). You can use the pre-game movement to shift the Flamers to be potentially be in range of something while Kairos does the same as his other list and blasts out 4 spells with RR's from the Tome which will actually increase his range ever so slightly. Main reason for the Exalted is simply due to their inherent -1 rend... again, kind of want to try it in Conflag so bump them to -2 but it's hard to not just look at getting normal Flamers for less.

I'll try to do a batrep with each if I manage the time to play them. Still in week 2/5 of another weekly tournament so part of me wants to practice with my main list.. but I also want to avoid burnout 😅

Lemme know what you all think.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Gwendar

[Kasper]

Devolve is kinda a neat trick. Especially if you can grab something with fly so it moves over a screen or whatever. That combined with the 6” pregame move could certainly catch people offguard! 
 

Question - If Kairos casts Wind of Change with a Manticore nearby, I guess the Blue Scribes can roll a 4+ to learn it off Kairos? I think I need to abuse the 2+ on the Blue Scribes more often. Learning Gift of Change and Wind of Chaos is quite potent for the following turns after placing the Spellportal in turn 1.

[Gwendar]

38 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Devolve is kinda a neat trick. Especially if you can grab something with fly so it moves over a screen or whatever. That combined with the 6” pregame move could certainly catch people offguard! 
 

Question - If Kairos casts Wind of Change with a Manticore nearby, I guess the Blue Scribes can roll a 4+ to learn it off Kairos? I think I need to abuse the 2+ on the Blue Scribes more often. Learning Gift of Change and Wind of Chaos is quite potent for the following turns after placing the Spellportal in turn 1.

That's the idea.. will depend who I think is going to go first though considering the order of operations.

And yes, it can learn it. He can't learn/cast Gift of Change because it requires a bracket table for it's damage. I pretty much only use the 2+ roll unless he was going to use Boon.. but I also just had a game where he failed the 2+ twice in a row which was fun. I'll have a batrep up for that game later.

[Shmaravoz]

New BattleReport Tzeentch (Archeon) vs Trolls - who is the biggest bully in all the Mortal Realms?

 

[Gwendar]

And here's my own from todays Butchers Buffet GT game. Brain still fried 6 hours later.. that was the roughest game I think I've played and I definitely need more practice to get quicker with my decisions.

As I said in the final section, I'm considering some changes to the list that I may test if I can find the energy to play during a weeknight this week. I still wanna test the other 2 I posted earlier so.. eventually I'll get to everything 😅

 

[Kasper]

10 hours ago, Gwendar said:

That's the idea.. will depend who I think is going to go first though considering the order of operations.

And yes, it can learn it. He can't learn/cast Gift of Change because it requires a bracket table for it's damage. I pretty much only use the 2+ roll unless he was going to use Boon.. but I also just had a game where he failed the 2+ twice in a row which was fun. I'll have a batrep up for that game later.

I would never put Kairos so far forward unless I knew beforehand if I was gonna take turn 1 or not.  But if you have fewer drops than your opponent, then it is quite neat! I thought about trying change the control list to Changehost to limit drops, but having to field a normal Chicken really messes up with the points. I still want Kairos, Be'lakor and Manticore..

Good point about Gift of Change. Completely forgot about the FAQ that explains it. Still, I should generally be using his 2+ much more often past turn 1. Even if it is a 1/6 of failing, Im fairly sure it is significantly better odds than rolling 2D6.  Especially in a world where Kroak/Slann is quite dominant.  

[Kasper]

6 hours ago, Gwendar said:

And here's my own from todays Butchers Buffet GT game. Brain still fried 6 hours later.. that was the roughest game I think I've played and I definitely need more practice to get quicker with my decisions.

As I said in the final section, I'm considering some changes to the list that I may test if I can find the energy to play during a weeknight this week. I still wanna test the other 2 I posted earlier so.. eventually I'll get to everything 😅

 

Great batrep! It is always easy to backseat, but isnt ultimately the biggest threat in his list the 40 Skinks? Is there a reason why you didnt Spellportal + fate dice Wind of Chaos on the 40 in turn 2 to significantly reduce the incoming damage the following turns?

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

I would never put Kairos so far forward unless I knew beforehand if I was gonna take turn 1 or not.  But if you have fewer drops than your opponent, then it is quite neat! I thought about trying change the control list to Changehost to limit drops, but having to field a normal Chicken really messes up with the points. I still want Kairos, Be'lakor and Manticore..

Good point about Gift of Change. Completely forgot about the FAQ that explains it. Still, I should generally be using his 2+ much more often past turn 1. Even if it is a 1/6 of failing, Im fairly sure it is significantly better odds than rolling 2D6.  Especially in a world where Kroak/Slann is quite dominant.  

Yeah, I've tried building lists with it and it just doesn't work unfortunately. Changehost being as restrictive as it is makes it hard to have all the Wizards you want/need unless you fill it with Brims.

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Great batrep! It is always easy to backseat, but isnt ultimately the biggest threat in his list the 40 Skinks? Is there a reason why you didnt Spellportal + fate dice Wind of Chaos on the 40 in turn 2 to significantly reduce the incoming damage the following turns?

Thanks, and yes and no.. he was going to be able to summon 10 Skinks a turn which I didn't want to deal with but I just couldn't kill Kroak fast enough. I didn't bother with the 40 Skinks because I knew I would just shut them down with Be'lakor for 1-2 turns (if he got a double) and Kairos would deny a charge, but I forgot. I made it so that at most he would only be able to shoot at Horrors.

That said, I ran that option in my head when playing but decided against it for various reasons. Like I said.. some things I could've done differently to make the game easier for me but all in all it was a success so I can't complain. Definitely going to look at making alternate lists today when I'm not too busy.

[Kasper]

52 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah, I've tried building lists with it and it just doesn't work unfortunately. Changehost being as restrictive as it is makes it hard to have all the Wizards you want/need unless you fill it with Brims.

Brims arent too bad though, they could act as a backend screen to prevent deepstrikes as you push forward with your Pinks/casters (something I sometimes miss). Against super aggressive melee armies it never hurts to have a couple of layers of protection, since many units can easily chew through 50 wounds, but if the second layer is far enough back so they cant pile in, it doesnt matter if it is only 10 wounds, it will stop their charge. But yeah, the issue is points - Another issue is that with so many heroes not fitting into the batallion, you are not getting a low drop army either way, so what is really the point in bending your army list? The teleport is neat though, but not sure it is worth changing everything up.

52 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Thanks, and yes and no.. he was going to be able to summon 10 Skinks a turn which I didn't want to deal with but I just couldn't kill Kroak fast enough. I didn't bother with the 40 Skinks because I knew I would just shut them down with Be'lakor for 1-2 turns (if he got a double) and Kairos would deny a charge, but I forgot. I made it so that at most he would only be able to shoot at Horrors.

That said, I ran that option in my head when playing but decided against it for various reasons. Like I said.. some things I could've done differently to make the game easier for me but all in all it was a success so I can't complain. Definitely going to look at making alternate lists today when I'm not too busy.

I just figured that 10 Skinks deal no damage and they wont really contest your Horrors on objectives. I can understand generally wanting to kill Kroak since his Celestial Deliverance/Stellar Tempest/Comet's Call really thins out Horrors and threatens some of the low wound heroes. I just figured 40 Skinks is such a juicy and easy target for Wind of Chaos, and it will force him to use a CP for Inspiring Presense 100% with all the deaths. Many Seraphon lists dont start with a CP, so if you get turn 1 and manage to throw it at them turn 1, they are really in neck deep. After those are gone there wont really be a whole lot of damage output beside Kroak. Maybe Kroak is a better target overall - But you could also throw Be'lakor at him and shut him down for 1-2 turns. 

Again, not trying to backseat - Im just trying to learn. Im building my Tzeentch army as is and have been playing some games on TTS so far.  You are obviously great at the army and has been doing really well with it!

Edited November 9, 2020 by Kasper

[Gwendar]

34 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Brims arent too bad though, they could act as a backend screen to prevent deepstrikes as you push forward with your Pinks/casters (something I sometimes miss). Against super aggressive melee armies it never hurts to have a couple of layers of protection, since many units can easily chew through 50 wounds, but if the second layer is far enough back so they cant pile in, it doesnt matter if it is only 10 wounds, it will stop their charge. But yeah, the issue is points - Another issue is that with so many heroes not fitting into the batallion, you are not getting a low drop army either way, so what is really the point in bending your army list? The teleport is neat though, but not sure it is worth changing everything up.

I just figured that 10 Skinks deal no damage and they wont really contest your Horrors on objectives. I can understand generally wanting to kill Kroak since his Celestial Deliverance/Stellar Tempest/Comet's Call really thins out Horrors and threatens some of the low wound heroes. I just figured 40 Skinks is such a juicy and easy target for Wind of Chaos, and it will force him to use a CP for Inspiring Presense 100% with all the deaths. Many Seraphon lists dont start with a CP, so if you get turn 1 and manage to throw it at them turn 1, they are really in neck deep. After those are gone there wont really be a whole lot of damage output beside Kroak. Maybe Kroak is a better target overall - But you could also throw Be'lakor at him and shut him down for 1-2 turns. 

Again, not trying to backseat - Im just trying to learn. Im building my Tzeentch army as is and have been playing some games on TTS so far.  You are obviously great at the army and has been doing really well with it!

Oh Brims definitely are not bad.. once I have some time this morning I may see what I can put together. Once you starting trying to add Kairos/Be'lakor you're starting to push 2-3 drops which is still going to beat most armies.. but I think points are the biggest thing. You need 660 points in Pinks and then there would be no way to have Kairos and Be'lakor with a LoC since you need to fill out Changehost.. and without either of them I'm not really sure you still have a control based casting list.

So here's what happened in my head: The main reason I wanted to go for Kroak is just so I can get his insane +3 unbind shenanigans out of the way since this list is so reliant on spells for damage. All in all, I think you're right and I made a bad call as what you're saying was the other half of my thought process but I gambled. I was afraid Kroak would just unbind Winds and then they would just sit there.. but the worst that would happen is they go next and I could just Be'lakor them since they were the target anyway. That would've been a better gamble than maybe putting some wounds on Kroak 😉

I couldn't kill Kroak in 1 turn anyway so.. yeah, not sure why I went with that. Even top tournament players can make bad decisions they wouldn't normally make every now and then but it was a win overall and I learned my lesson from it. If you ever want to get a game in just let me know and I can run Skaven or something.

[Gwendar]

Couple of revisioned lists I'm thinking about for the future of the control list:

v1

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Be'Lakor (240)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82

Still with 6 Wizards, but loses Daemonrift. Basic principle here is the same but with a bit more control\shutdown via the Changeling giving me up to -4 to hit and -2 to wound in CC (daemon -1, his own -1, Arcane Suggestion -1 hit/wound and Geminids -1 with Be'lakors -1 wound) which pretty much shut down another unit separate from whatever Be'lakor turns off or what Kairos denies a charge roll with.

v2

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Be'Lakor (240)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 80

This was suggested by someone else (thanks Dave 😉) and drops a hero-wizard for more Pinks and I get to keep Daemonrift. Same basic concept as the above. Losing Winds of Chaos can hurt but.. more Pinks is probably better overall.

I was fortunate enough to get a shoutout on The Honest Wargamers stats show today which was pretty neat. This week I think I'll try to test the above and put the Hosts Arcanum lists on the backburner for now as I really want to perfect this before I try anything else.

[obmik1]

40 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

 

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I was fortunate enough to get a shoutout on The Honest Wargamers stats show today which was pretty neat. This week I think I'll try to test the above and put the Hosts Arcanum lists on the backburner for now as I really want to perfect this before I try anything else.

Awesome to read about your success, and to listen to them talk about your list earlier today.  Kairos + belakor in hoat D seems like an awesome control deck. 

 

I also love brand of the spirit daemon on the manticore. 

 

Interested to hear your ideas for host arcanum? I've been playing with the kairos+chost list that is being touted around the net, having allot of fun, another tricky control deck. 

[Gwendar]

14 minutes ago, obmik1 said:

Awesome to read about your success, and to listen to them talk about your list earlier today.  Kairos + belakor in hoat D seems like an awesome control deck. 

 

I also love brand of the spirit daemon on the manticore. 

 

Interested to hear your ideas for host arcanum? I've been playing with the kairos+chost list that is being touted around the net, having allot of fun, another tricky control deck. 

Thanks! Yeah it was nice to hear them appreciate it. I hope it doesn't catch on though so I can keep it running it all to myself 😅. I don't even get to utilize the no-retreat aspect of it as much if I'm honest.. those RR's to casts\unbinds are what really makes it. I consider myself lucky when they don't manage to kill the Spawn in combat so it can stick around and eat up their resources. That's what happened in my game vs Lumineth by throwing it between the 20 Sentinels who could only kill it via shooting which prevented them shooting at my heroes for a turn. And yeah, the Manticore is surprisingly tanky and killy (if you use Infusion Arcanum, which I would likely switch to) and people don't expect much from it. If I can afford to be aggressive with it then I will as it can tag the corner of something and sit there while they try to beat on it and it slowly kills them off with them unable to retreat.

I've been meaning to play the same kinds of Arcanum lists that have been doing so well, particular the stuff from Joe Krier but haven't got around to it. Those are also rather casting based and definitely require some piloting skills to master. If you look further up the page I have 2 concept lists I posted; 1 using 5 Exalted Flamers and 1 using Devolve to pull things closer that may have tried to hide out of range. I'm interested in it for sure and I think it's a very strong Coven, just not as point and click like Changehost+Flamers is.. which is a good thing in my book. Still waiting to see if the Broken Realms books give Arcanites a boost in power though.. I would really like to run a combat based Tzeentch list that doesn't need to have StD elements added in.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Gwendar

[Ganigumo]

@Gwendar I'll take anything to make arcanites better as well, I ended up building a phantasmagoria of Fate list just to make Tzaangors work. A tzaangor focused subfaction, and a complete rewrite of cult of the transient form would be my wishlist. If you look at all the subfactions we have now, unless they go really off the walls, the only subfaction left to squeeze in is a Tzaangor/BoC one.

I can't think of any of our warscrolls that need rewrites badly, maybe horrors?

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm tinkering with my BoC Tzeentch version.  I have 2 Fatemasters, and 2 units of 9 Bullgors (1 greataxes, 1 shields/axes).  I'm also thinking 2 Cygors could prove very good with Destiny Dice for unbinding since they do MW if successful, or just for making their giant rocks hit and do good damage.  Probably make one Fatemaster with Paradoxical Shield and Nexus of Fate, that seems like a solid general?  Then toss in Blue Scribes and perhaps a Taurus for the Shaman?

Is this even viable these days?  I haven't yet tried it out.  Probably be vs Mawtribes to start, then vs the Sons of Behemat.

[Gwendar]

58 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

@Gwendar I'll take anything to make arcanites better as well, I ended up building a phantasmagoria of Fate list just to make Tzaangors work. A tzaangor focused subfaction, and a complete rewrite of cult of the transient form would be my wishlist. If you look at all the subfactions we have now, unless they go really off the walls, the only subfaction left to squeeze in is a Tzaangor/BoC one.

I can't think of any of our warscrolls that need rewrites badly, maybe horrors?

I agree, Transient Cult needs to be Tzaangor focused as it's really just another Kairic focused one which makes no sense. I can see one of the Broken Realm SC boxes being a Shaman, 10 Tzaangors and 3 Enlightened/Skyfires or something and making them worth using potentially. 

I would disagree on Horrors though. In todays meta I really do think they're okay, but I would like to just see them drop in points slightly/get a slightly better save and split 1-1 so I don't need to invest in extra Blues\Brims. That would drive down their profits though so, I'm doubtful of that change.
 

25 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm tinkering with my BoC Tzeentch version.  I have 2 Fatemasters, and 2 units of 9 Bullgors (1 greataxes, 1 shields/axes).  I'm also thinking 2 Cygors could prove very good with Destiny Dice for unbinding since they do MW if successful, or just for making their giant rocks hit and do good damage.  Probably make one Fatemaster with Paradoxical Shield and Nexus of Fate, that seems like a solid general?  Then toss in Blue Scribes and perhaps a Taurus for the Shaman?

Is this even viable these days?  I haven't yet tried it out.  Probably be vs Mawtribes to start, then vs the Sons of Behemat.

I'm not sure Cygor would be worth it even in Tzeentch. Random damage, low range if they bracket, etc.. and they only do 1 MW if they unbind something.

I don't know that you really need 2 Fatemasters though, but I suppose it does counteract the abundance of 4's to hit. Personally, if I was building Phantasmagoria I would think more about a unit 9 or 2x6 Enlightened or something with some Skyfires and fill out the rest with Gors/Ungors and a few heroes. I love the Bullgors though so it may still be a nice alternative to the 9 Enlightened. Would love to hear how testing goes for you.

[Kasper]

22 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I couldn't kill Kroak in 1 turn anyway so.. yeah, not sure why I went with that. Even top tournament players can make bad decisions they wouldn't normally make every now and then but it was a win overall and I learned my lesson from it. If you ever want to get a game in just let me know and I can run Skaven or something.

I would love to man, but as Im still new to Tzeentch Im still having an awful time figuring out spells etc (I printed small Pokemon-like cards for the lore spells + warscroll spells), so I would prefer to get a better hang of them before wasting your time. 😅 Theres significantly more to keep track of than when I play Seraphon.

12 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I would disagree on Horrors though. In todays meta I really do think they're okay, but I would like to just see them drop in points slightly/get a slightly better save and split 1-1 so I don't need to invest in extra Blues\Brims. That would drive down their profits though so, I'm doubtful of that change.

Honestly I used to think Horrors were broken AF, but it was likely my inexperience with them. They get much worse in units of 20, but honestly almost any army got a way of dealing 20 damage in 1 turn to prevent you from DD 1 on the banner.

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

I would love to man, but as Im still new to Tzeentch Im still having an awful time figuring out spells etc (I printed small Pokemon-like cards for the lore spells + warscroll spells), so I would prefer to get a better hang of them before wasting your time. 😅 Theres significantly more to keep track of than when I play Seraphon.
 

Honestly I used to think Horrors were broken AF, but it was likely my inexperience with them. They get much worse in units of 20, but honestly almost any army got a way of dealing 20 damage in 1 turn to prevent you from DD 1 on the banner.

I have no issues with that at all man, doesn't have to be ultra fast and competitive... I don't mind being on the receiving end of Tzeentch just to learn it more and I can always walk you through things/decisions if you want for a sort of tutor game. No worries either way.

Yeah, if you don't have a CP then most of the time they're dead.. and my lists usually don't have a CP so I have to position them extra carefully to ensure they live T1. I want 1 big unit of 20, but having them spread out is generally far more beneficial.

[Aelford]

I'm going to try “MakeTzaangors great again!” Been pondering a few lists the last few days, so thought I'd post here to get feedback on which you think would be most competitive with comments to improve. I’ve always only played at tournaments, but wish to change that once the world is back to normal. Generally my play style is push it forward and roll dice. I’m guessing I’ll have to learn a few new tricks! 
What do you think the strongest Tzaangor list would be currently?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (100)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (100)

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (180)

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

Battleline
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
9 x Untamed Beasts (70)
9 x Untamed Beasts (70)

Battalions
Tzaangor Coven (180)

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Aelford

[Gwendar]

@Aelford Out of what you have there, I would say #2 is the best, although I do like Untamed Beasts for zoning out the board, so either way you wanna swing it. I don't really see the point in the Bridge for #1 hence why I didn't go with that; everything you have is fast enough to not really need it barring the 3 Enlightened on foot.. and you could just take that out and have 3 more Discs.

I'm probably not the best to speak about it since I'm known to really feel that Tzaangors are in a poor spot and not really a competitive option.. but I always like seeing people try less common stuff and making it work.

[Ganigumo]

@Aelfric I like #1 and #2, although I agree bridge isn't necessary on the first one, since it's host arcanum you could maybe cut Scribes & bridge to up the disc enlightened to a 6 man, leaving 40 points leftover. You could try to squeeze an endless in, or swap out the kairics for some screamers and take a bonus CP?

I think Tzaangors are weak at the moment as well, but a lot of it is due to how awkward it is to fit them into a list, not so much them having bad rules. 6 enlightened can already put out some insane damage, and if they fight twice they'll melt pretty much anything.

I ended up building phantasmagoria of Fate because it let me bring Tzaangors with less awkwardness, since I could take cheap battleline chaff rather than 180 point 10 man tzaangor units that don't do a whole lot (I think 20 man units of tzaangors are fine, but 10 mans lose effectiveness too quickly)

Hopefully we see some assistance in the upcoming point update, My suggestions were making foot enlightened  "battleline if tzaangor general" and making Tzaangors 90 points for 5, which clears up a lot of the awkwardness of building Tzeentch tzaangor lists, although I don't think they've ever changed unit size or battleline status in a points update before...
 

[Ekaan92]

Hi fellow tzeentch Players! I'm mainly a S2D player, But my favorite god is tzeentch, so I've dipped my toes in the book a little bit, but thought I could use some advice on my lists if anyone is feeling up for it  

My main goal is to run Archaon in host of duplicitous , so far I have two lists (very simmiliar) 

Spoiler

List 1:
Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Host Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact:  Brand of the Split Daemon
-Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change:  Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Endless Spells
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Points 1980/2000, 8 drops.

My 2nd list (Very Simmiliar) :
 

Spoiler

List 2:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Host Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact:  Brand of the Split Daemon
-Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality


Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
5x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapons & Shields

Units
3x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Endless Spells
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Points 2000/2000 , 7 drops

Does anyone have any tips on alternate units/spell choices?