AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[GeneralZero]

Nice trick @decker_cky  and add to this its édevolve" spell it could be interesting (making several enemy units -especially those BEHIND a screen - exposed to MW and charge), problem being the cost of the shaman in an army already rich and crowded  in shamans... Choice choice choice...But for the tzaangors, nice one. 

My goal is to find a way to play heavy tzangors army.

[AverageBoss]

3 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

Nice trick @decker_cky  and add to this its édevolve" spell it could be interesting (making several enemy units -especially those BEHIND a screen - exposed to MW and charge), problem being the cost of the shaman in an army already rich and crowded  in shamans... Choice choice choice...But for the tzaangors, nice one. 

My goal is to find a way to play heavy tzangors army.

I think its very doable. I also thank a mortal heavy army with mostly StD units could be a solid option for DoT too.

[GeneralZero]

5 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

Do you think that Cult of Transient Form could be worth it? 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Cult of the Transient Form

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Artefact: Chaotica Amulet
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Defiant in their Pursuit
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141
 

This is the kind of list that I am aiming to. But, as I equaly love Ogroid and LoC/Kairos, I want them both in my list. So, the acolyte will go by 10 and  tzaangors by 10 making almost room for the LoC. I don't like the fatemaster mini, so, really hesitating here to include him and make my army full wizzards...

[schwabbele]

I have the creativity of a stone... could you please share some cool basing ideas for tzeentch with me ?

Edited January 16, 2020 by schwabbele

[GeneralZero]

1 minute ago, schwabbele said:

I have the creativity of a stone... could you please share some cool basing ideas for tzeentch with me please ? 

The battletome has some really nice , superbs and easy ones...

[AverageBoss]

You could run Guild of Summoners and summon a Lord of Change early (turn 3 with your current list).

[AverageBoss]

Or split the Acolytes into 4 10x man squads and go for a turn 2 summon.

[DarrinTheOccult]

25 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

This is the kind of list that I am aiming to. But, as I equaly love Ogroid and LoC/Kairos, I want them both in my list. So, the acolyte will go by 10 and  tzaangors by 10 making almost room for the LoC. I don't like the fatemaster mini, so, really hesitating here to include him and make my army full wizzards...

I would suggest you never take tzaangors in units of 10, as they need to be 9+ miniatures for getting +1 attack, so they would lose that bonus really quick. Also if you don't take fatemaster, the list loses its principal trick: rerolling all hit rolls on a 9" bubble (I'm looking at you Tzaangors and Skyfires). Also I've chosen 2 units of 20 kairic acolytes for battletline and for the ability of Cult of the trascient form (each time a acolyte is slain roll a dice, on a 6+ you can add a tzaangor to a tzaangor unit on the battlefield) so 40 acolytes is an average of 6-7 extra tzaangor, but 20 is  an average of 3.

[Sinfullyvannila]

8 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Not sure how it can be seen as a nerf.  A minority of units got slightly worse in isolation but we got 3 new powerful alligence abilities: Locus of Change, Agendas and Cults. Tzaangor focus lists (Enlightened on Disks specifically) have arguably lost as much as they gained.

Destiny dice got nerfed. Pinks got nerfed. Beacon of Sorcery got nerfed. We lost our 4+ horde clearing spell that could hit 90% of the table.

Our buffs are mostly on units that were upgraded from “unusable” to useful.

[Oreaper84]

Does anyone else feel like GW editing went through last minute and red pen editied some things out of the book? Specifically the deamon keyword from disk units. I got a similar feel from the new KO book....like things were added /removed last minute and it went to print with some of the core concepts turned on their head. Could be a bit unfounded, but i feel like both the DoT and KO battletomes were right and ready and they both received a last minute knee-****** edit to nerf them a bit.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:

Nice trick @decker_cky  and add to this its édevolve" spell it could be interesting (making several enemy units -especially those BEHIND a screen - exposed to MW and charge), problem being the cost of the shaman in an army already rich and crowded  in shamans... Choice choice choice...But for the tzaangors, nice one. 

My goal is to find a way to play heavy tzangors army.

I floored Ironjawz with a Tzaangor heavy list the other day.

Max unit of Enlightened with Reckless abandon backed by a Shaman with Shield of Fate and the Dirgehorn.

20 blob of Tzaangors with Ninefold Dismantlement backed by a Fatemaster.

2x10 Kairic Acolytes 

Gaunt Summoner 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 minute ago, Oreaper84 said:

Does anyone else feel like GW editing went through last minute and red pen editied some things out of the book? Specifically the deamon keyword from disk units. I got a similar feel from the new KO book....like things were added /removed last minute and it went to print with some of the core concepts turned on their head. Could be a bit unfounded, but i feel like both the DoT and KO battletomes were right and ready and they both received a last minute knee-****** edit to nerf them a bit.

No. That was a very deliberate change.

[Oreaper84]

1 minute ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

No. That was a very deliberate change.

That's a very definitive statement....care to elaborate or provide credibility to your view?

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

That's a very definitive statement....care to elaborate or provide credibility to your view?

They wanted to get rid of Fold Reality cheese and didn’t want Locus of Change to apply to them.

Because old enlightened + agendas and a potential -4 to be hit would be absolutely insanely powerful.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Oreaper84]

1 minute ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

They wanted to get rid of Fold Reality cheese and didn’t want Locus of Change to apply to them.

Yeah but why?...Does it really break the game that much? Sure you give a unit -1 to hit in combat, tons of things do that now anyway. Sure you have a  D6 rez, other things do that too. and please dont say that its bc they are multi wound... you can do it to flamers, exalted, screamers, flame chariots, too. They simply decided arbitrarily that Tzaangors needed the nerf. Leets also remember the heavy price tag in all the units it effects 180/200 respectively. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

13 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Yeah but why?...Does it really break the game that much? Sure you give a unit -1 to hit in combat, tons of things do that now anyway. Sure you have a  D6 rez, other things do that too. and please dont say that its bc they are multi wound... you can do it to flamers, exalted, screamers, flame chariots, too. They simply decided arbitrarily that Tzaangors needed the nerf. Leets also remember the heavy price tag in all the units it effects 180/200 respectively. 

Yes. “Tons of things do that now” is exactly why giving them an additional passive -1 would be broken.

Arcane Suggestion, Treason of Tzeentch, Locus of Change and Doomblast Dirgehorn, Geminids(forgot about that one, bringing it to a -5 to be hit) would make Enlightened impossible to hit for anything without buffs.

If you make them impossible to hit, then they are now rerolling all hits and wounds without taking any losses.

Combine that with Reckless Abandon and  you’re giving the unit 27 extra attacks.

Tzaangors got nerfed in a vacuum because the got major buffs in the Agendas.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[HarbingerGaming]

5 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Yeah but why?...Does it really break the game that much? Sure you give a unit -1 to hit in combat, tons of things do that now anyway. Sure you have a  D6 rez, other things do that too. and please dont say that its bc they are multi wound... you can do it to flamers, exalted, screamers, flame chariots, too. They simply decided arbitrarily that Tzaangors needed the nerf. Leets also remember the heavy price tag in all the units it effects 180/200 respectively. 

It isn't so much that it breaks the game, but it creates a lot of bad play experiences. You're right, you could just do Fold Reality on other units...but before this book, where was the value in doing so? All those units you listed were never considered for competitive play in the previous battletome, and the Daemon keyword carries a lot of weight nowadays. Skyfires and then Enlightened were just amazingly efficient units that with that Keyword, could just mitigate a lot of their flaws. Fold Reality regenerates the unit. Locus makes them harder to kill in combat. There's a multitude of ways of getting -1 to hit in shooting between some spells and Eternal Conflagration. Taking it away let's them keep certain avenues of mechanics open for the army overall without it getting out of hand and creating a one dimensional archetype. 

[Oreaper84]

4 minutes ago, HarbingerGaming said:

It isn't so much that it breaks the game, but it creates a lot of bad play experiences. You're right, you could just do Fold Reality on other units...but before this book, where was the value in doing so? All those units you listed were never considered for competitive play in the previous battletome, and the Daemon keyword carries a lot of weight nowadays. Skyfires and then Enlightened were just amazingly efficient units that with that Keyword, could just mitigate a lot of their flaws. Fold Reality regenerates the unit. Locus makes them harder to kill in combat. There's a multitude of ways of getting -1 to hit in shooting between some spells and Eternal Conflagration. Taking it away let's them keep certain avenues of mechanics open for the army overall without it getting out of hand and creating a one dimensional archetype. 

Everything you mention applies to all other units in the book. Talk about negative experiences then we need look no further than Horrors, which i would argue are WAY more abuseable and spawn countless more when they get folded. going last was the enlightened's thing. adding debuffs is the mechanism to get them there. The only thing this did was take variety out of the book. 

[Sunraeteam]

1 hour ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

Do you think that Cult of Transient Form could be worth it? 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Cult of the Transient Form

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Artefact: Chaotica Amulet
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Defiant in their Pursuit
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141
 

In the list above, asuming all 40 Kairic Acolytes dies you gain 6-7 extra Tzaangors on average. Seems a bit meh. The big benefit is letting your guys strike back even when charged by a hard hammer units striking first. The lord on terror-geist comes to mind. The opertunity cost of having one of the other covens in stead makes it feel like a trap. Your giving upp 6 screamers and a free fly move for d3 units or +1 to hit for the Kairic acolytes in the pyrofane cult. You lack good hereos for the chainfire amulet tho so I would probbably go for the host arcanum. Make screamers a battleline unit and get a free fastmoving screen/ objective grabber seems ok, it all depends on what your meta looks like tho. If flying monsters that are hard to screen against are prevalent transient form can stay but in my eyes it seems like the least viable one as it more or less depends on you loosing models in the combat fase to work. Nighthaunt charges, shooting magic etc makes it seem like there is better alternatives out there, 9 fate point lord of change, yes plix... force oposing units to stay in melee with Tzaangors yes pliz. Going just from what you have in the list now and not whanting to go out and get more moddels I would change to Host duplicitus to limit what my oponent can do when they get in2 one of my units. Your already summoning a umit of horrors I would asume with the Gaunt summoner so you might even get to bring it back. If you dont plan to summon Horrors, or your meta is mostly strikes first slanesh and FEC. I would not change from Cult of the Transient Form

But then again Im wrong from time to time so take it with a grain of salt. @:-)

One question tho... What would you take if you did not pick a change coven?

[HarbingerGaming]

4 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Everything you mention applies to all other units in the book. Talk about negative experiences then we need look no further than Horrors, which i would argue are WAY more abuseable and spawn countless more when they get folded. going last was the enlightened's thing. adding debuffs is the mechanism to get them there. The only thing this did was take variety out of the book. 

I agree about Horrors. I think that is going to be very annoying. Enlightened and Skyfires aren't losing variety by not having the Daemon keyword. That keyword was part of the reason why a lot of other units were held back. They just got buffs from every source under the sun compared to the others. I'm not sure how that provides variety when that was the only unit being looked at for the longest time for DoT as a faction. 

[Gwendar]

So, a few things I'd like more opinions on as I continue writing competitively minded lists:

1. Is Summoners Guild a trap? I've seen this idea being tossed around somewhat frequently and it's largely due to not being able to have the LoC do anything until the turn after it's summoned. I've made lists varying between 10-14+ casts per turn, all with no battalion and a core of 3x10 (or 2x10 + 10 Kairic's with more Horrors summoned by a Gaunt) that could easily get it T1 and a 2nd by 2\3.. but is it worth it? I don't value Tzeentchs summoning otherwise that much to the cost of summoning anything worthwhile. So is Summoners Guild something anyone could consider competitive?
    
2. Pyrofane Cult. I see this as a great alternative to the Flamer\Changehost spam done in Eternal Conflagration. Every part of me wants to include 6 Enlightened with Witchfyre Coven... but typically if you're wanting to have 60 (in my case 30-20-10) Kairics with the battalion I find your limited on spells, maybe getting 3-5? Are 6 Enlightened even worth it? This is assuming you take a Fatemaster and extra CP to properly fuel the big Kairic units damage output.
    
3. Conflagration + Changehost... which I think I feel will be the go-to but for how long? I think we've talked this into the ground at this point, but can the above compete with Horror and Flamer spam to just remove units from the table while teleport utility and 1-drop ensures board control? It's hard to give that up.. and I can't really see as much longevity or hitting power from others.

Like I said.. just some thoughts I'm working through. I've committed to building into the Flamer-host build as many others have, but assuming that gets taken down a notch (which I anticipate) then are Summoners\Pyrofane a worthy alternative?
 

[Grimrock]

49 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Yeah but why?...Does it really break the game that much? Sure you give a unit -1 to hit in combat, tons of things do that now anyway. Sure you have a  D6 rez, other things do that too. and please dont say that its bc they are multi wound... you can do it to flamers, exalted, screamers, flame chariots, too. They simply decided arbitrarily that Tzaangors needed the nerf. Leets also remember the heavy price tag in all the units it effects 180/200 respectively. 

Honestly it seems like standard operating procedure for GW. They tend to take the strongest things in the previous book, tweak them to be less appealing, and then buff up other things so they're more appealing. Realistically it keeps people buying models as they look to use the new combos or whatever. Lots of people that were running 560 points of enlightened and a shaman are now looking to replace it with 580 of flamers and an exalted.

And let's not forget pinks. Very appealing with a conflagration combo in a changehost, but the requirements for blues have changed. With old summoning you could get away with about an equal number of pinks/blues/brims, but now you pretty much have to buy two boxes of blues for every pink. Oh, and hey look a gaunt summoner on disk (which was pretty much never ever used as the foot version was far better) is now the optimal choice to summon a free unit of them. That little combo costs about 200 dollars Canadian btw, the guy who thought that up probably deserves a raise haha. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Grimrock

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Is Summoners Guild a trap?

It’s as much of a trap as anything else that isn’t Conflagration. It’s just a fun way to play with more than 1 Loc.

[Sunraeteam]

9 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

So, a few things I'd like more opinions on as I continue writing competitively minded lists:

1. Is Summoners Guild a trap? I've seen this idea being tossed around somewhat frequently and it's largely due to not being able to have the LoC do anything until the turn after it's summoned. I've made lists varying between 10-14+ casts per turn, all with no battalion and a core of 3x10 (or 2x10 + 10 Kairic's with more Horrors summoned by a Gaunt) that could easily get it T1 and a 2nd by 2\3.. but is it worth it? I don't value Tzeentchs summoning otherwise that much to the cost of summoning anything worthwhile. So is Summoners Guild something anyone could consider competitive?
    
2. Pyrofane Cult. I see this as a great alternative to the Flamer\Changehost spam done in Eternal Conflagration. Every part of me wants to include 6 Enlightened with Witchfyre Coven... but typically if you're wanting to have 60 (in my case 30-20-10) Kairics with the battalion I find your limited on spells, maybe getting 3-5? Are 6 Enlightened even worth it? This is assuming you take a Fatemaster and extra CP to properly fuel the big Kairic units damage output.
    
3. Conflagration + Changehost... which I think I feel will be the go-to but for how long? I think we've talked this into the ground at this point, but can the above compete with Horror and Flamer spam to just remove units from the table while teleport utility and 1-drop ensures board control? It's hard to give that up.. and I can't really see as much longevity or hitting power from others.

Like I said.. just some thoughts I'm working through. I've committed to building into the Flamer-host build as many others have, but assuming that gets taken down a notch (which I anticipate) then are Summoners\Pyrofane a worthy alternative?
 

1. Not a trap but you have to build your list around it. Having an early 2380 points on the table can give you an edge. You are giving upp l8game flexibility tho. With the change only letting you summon one unit a turn having that unit B a lord of change seems ok.

2. Pyrofane cult seems like a more balanced alternative. Enlightend does not stack upp to trolls and other hard hitting units in the game but what would the alternative B? You want something with bite in melee and Enlightend fit the bill.  sorc on manticore? Mutalist beast and hope for free spawns? Most of the time you want flying to get around endless spells and terrain.

3. My pick right now, mostly cus I have the models but it also seems good right now, expect most people to overload on flamers and skimp on horrors. Glas cannon is glass. I expect a more ballanced lists to make the rounds after the alpha strike fad wears off. Flamer range is 18 but has to stand 9 from screens so keep 9 from screen and use ranged to hit back. I mostly play as unead and I would just hide my heros first few turns and screen with my big blocks of skeletons, Still free teleports with no casting involved are great for the threat it prepresents to the backfield. With minus to hitt spells from more and more factions in play I expect MSU to come back in a big way, You do not whant a big powerfull unit of say Enlightend to get a minus 3 to hit from items, spells etc. All eggs in one basket is risky.

[AverageBoss]

39 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

Everything you mention applies to all other units in the book. Talk about negative experiences then we need look no further than Horrors, which i would argue are WAY more abuseable and spawn countless more when they get folded. going last was the enlightened's thing. adding debuffs is the mechanism to get them there. The only thing this did was take variety out of the book. 

Outside Pyrofane/changehost, horrors are more tissue paper than clan rats. They went up in points for a less flexible form of splitting than they used to have. They cant take lore spells anymore and cease becoming a wizard period after a few casualties. Fold is MUCH more risky on them than it use to be.

Flamers, exalteds, and burning chariots are also FAR less durable for their points than Skyfires/Enlightened, and once again outside pyrofane/changehost, will be doing FAR less damage.