AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[GeneralZero]

Chariot being great again gives me hope for my 3 StD chariots in the upcoming StD battletome!

[Rentar]

4 minutes ago, Poryague said:

 

Summoning point to dp ratio from

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Age_of_Sigmar/Tactics/Chaos/Hedonites_of_Slaanesh

Summoning Efficiency Ratios[edit]

Top down, the units you want to leave out of your roster and summon instead BY EFFICIENCY OF DEPRAVITY POINTS:ROSTER POINTS ALONE:

1. Herald on Seeker Chariot, at 13.3 points/DP

2. Herald on Exalted Chariot, 10 Daemonettes, or 20 Daemonettes at 12.2 points/DP

3. Herald on Hellflayer, Herald on Foot, Keeper of Secrets, 30 Daemonettes, 3 Seeker Chariots, 1 Seeker Chariot, 1 Exalted Chariot, or 5 Seekers at 12 points/DP

4. Infernal Enrapturess, 3 Fiends, or 1 Hellflayer at 11.7 points/DP

5. Contorted Epitome, at 11 points/DP

If you summon them near the Fane, the list is as follows:

1. Herald on Seeker Chariot at 16 points/dp

2. 10 Daemonettes at 15.7 points/dp

3. Herald on foot, 1 Seeker Chariot, or 5 Seekers at 15 points/DP

4. Infernal Enrapturess or Hellflayer at 14 points/DP

5. Herald on Hellflayer and Exalted Chariot at 13.84 points/DP

6. Herald on Exalted Seeker Chariot or 20 Daemonettes at 13.75 points/DP

7. 3 Fiends at 13.1 points/DP

8. 30 Daemonettes at 13 points/DP

9. Keeper of Secrets or 3 Seeker Chariots at 12.9 points/DP

10. Contorted Epitome at 12.5 points/DP

In short, if you want a Contorted Epitome or a Keeper of Secrets, you want it in your roster. If you want Heralds on Seeker Chariots, you're best served summoning them in.

Took me a few hours to do that, type it up, and then do damage charts to figure out which units generate the most depravity points for the fewest roster points. Hardest part was figuring out how to calculate rend in a chart ><

[Poryague]

7 minutes ago, Rentar said:

Took me a few hours to do that, type it up, and then do damage charts to figure out which units generate the most depravity points for the fewest roster points. Hardest part was figuring out how to calculate rend in a chart ><

The chart is useful considering how slaanesh summoning works. The army definitely in top ranks for summoning.

Another thing to consider is wounds to dp. The idea being hero ability to generate dp from taking damge part of the recycling dp and summoning again. This may be useful for deciding hero summon. Not completely sure if it matter though or if it would be useful information.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Poryague

[Enoby]

I think it's also worth considering, when looking at points vs DP, if the summon can generate further DP. So while daemonettes may be good per dp, they'll get you no further DP, whereas a new KoS will almost certainly mean at least 10 more daemonettes. 

[Rentar]

In my opinion, the best things to summon are: The Enrapturess near the Fane (when your front lines are pretty cluttered, as they probably are), or the Exalted Chariot (In fact, you can probably summon it behind enemy lines if your already very mobile army can get a surround on the enemy).

Both of these generate a fair number of points, aren't that expensive (12 and 18 respectively), and are probably the best in their roles. The KoS is, quite frankly, not very points efficient without artefacts/traits.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Rentar
adding info

[Hebroseph]

On 4/27/2019 at 3:01 AM, Colonel Cabbage said:

Let’s talk about CAs. The book only has 2 it seems. Meaning that Syll’Esske is the only unit in the army that must be the general to use their CA  even if we add STD and BoC they are still the only one I think. They are also a named character (I presume) so you won’t want to make them your general. Therefore until we see the rest of the book Syll’Esske’s CA seems to be the only reason to go invaders. No one else needs to be the general (except Darkoath Warqueen, but come on).

Gloomspite Skagrott has to be general for his ability to work also. 

 

[Poryague]

33 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think it's also worth considering, when looking at points vs DP, if the summon can generate further DP. So while daemonettes may be good per dp, they'll get you no further DP, whereas a new KoS will almost certainly mean at least 10 more daemonettes. 

Seems like point vs dp the herald seeker chariot is good choice. It also generates more dp. 

[Nokrah]

Hi,

do you think it's still worth to catch half a Wrath & Rapture set? Given the fiends are so so now. They are pricey in points, and with a strange position in the army, they lack proper rend for monsters or multiwounds elite units hunting... But they are stealing in this process precious DP to our heroes.  Using them on troops is a loss for the barbed sting. To sum up, fiends are nowhere in term of uses in the army (daemonettes will do a better job for the same number of points).

 

 

[CB42]

18 minutes ago, Nokrah said:

Hi,

do you think it's still worth to catch half a Wrath & Rapture set? Given the fiends are so so now. They are pricey in points, and with a strange position in the army, they lack proper rend for monsters or multiwounds elite units hunting... But they are stealing in this process precious DP to our heroes.  Using them on troops is a loss for the barbed sting. To sum up, fiends are nowhere in term of uses in the army (daemonettes will do a better job for the same number of points).

 

 

Daemonettes and Seekers are still good, and 6 Fiends is okay for its points. Infernal Enrapturess, either bringing it in your list or summoning it, will often be super useful for countering magic-heavy teams.

W&R is just.... not quite as good as it was before the points nerfs.

[themortalgod]

1 hour ago, Poryague said:

Seems like point vs dp the herald seeker chariot is good choice. It also generates more dp. 

This is true, though, in my experience, by the time you make enough dp to summon something, summon that something, have it generate more dp, whatever you will be summoning with that dp will be too late in the game to make a big difference. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by themortalgod

[Poryague]

4 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

This is true, though, in my experience, by the time you make enough dp to summon something, summon that something, have it generate more dp, whatever you will be summoning with that dp will be too late in the game to make a big difference. 

Slaanesh has fairly generous summoning system. Sure the chariot is the most point efficient. The thing is to summon the most helpful thing. In objective game being able to summon 30 daemonettes on or to charge objective will win you games.  we can flood the board with heros who are wizards which works with the rest of the objectives. 

[CB42]

Slaanesh Bestigors in Depraved Drove / HoS are looking REALLY good. I know people have mentioned them, but 30 of them force about 50% more saves than 20 Seekers against enemies with at least 10 models, and 25% more saves against enemies with less than 10 models, and cost 300 points instead of 480 points. And Bestigors do about 139% more damage than 30 Daemonettes, who also cost 300 points. Hell, even against stormcast with a 4+ save with no units with at least 10 models, and the Daemonettes are in the mortal wound battalion (one of the best situations for Daemonettes relative to Bestigors), the Bestigors still average 70% more damage after saves than the Daemonettes in the Euphoric Revellers battalion. Obviously the Seekers are also good because of their mobility, and the Daemonettes are still good because you can get them in multiple ranks (so you don't have a 38 inch spread of models across half the board) and the Keeper can make them fight twice if wholly within 12", but Bestigors are probably the best turn 1 alpha strike we have. All the math above assumes you have ways to get everyone to reroll 1s to hit.

You can take the Contorted Epitome with its reroll failed casting rolls and position it out of unbind range to almost guarantee that you get Chronomantic Cogs off. Bestigors then can move 11", run 1d6+1", and charge 2d6+2" (or 2d6+3" in a Godseekers), rerolling charges if within 12" of an enemy hero with an artifact. With a CP to run 6", that's a turn 1 charge on any deployment in the game.

Benefiting from the exploding 6s turning into 3 hits is absurdly good. Assuming you're Pretenders or against Order, and hitting an enemy's screen / battleline so you're hitting units with 10+ models, you force an average of 71 saves with -1 rend, probably spread across 2-4 units since you have to spread the Besties out so much. But assuming about 2/3 of those go through, you're chewing through about a third of an army's wounds characteristic with a 300 point unit that still has a 4+ save and 30 wounds for the enemy to get through on their counterpunch. And even if they have units that can fight first, you can charge one unit that can't fight first and stay 3.1 inches away from 2-3 other units and pile into their Flesh Eater General with Savage Strike or Bloodthirster or whatever that fights at the start of the turn but wasn't eligible to fight. And if you get 8 depraved drove Bestigors into a FEC ghoul king on royal zombie dragon with an artifact, you can expect to average about 13.3 wounds worth of damage to it - enough that with a good roll you can kill it before it fights.

I've already painted up 30 Slaaneshi Bestigors but I may get another 30. Launch 30 of them in turn 1, turn 2 retreat all the survivors and launch another 30 into the surviving enemy. The enemy doesn't even leave their deployment zone for 2 full rounds while they're trying to deal with a horde of 4+ save models that just commit excessive murder. Although I might switch to doing the same thing with Gors as one of the best per points screen killers in the game (210 points for 30 models to force 30 saves, while still having a 4+ save in melee? Hell yeah), which would then open up Bestigors to charge in turn 2 after the Gors have mostly died killing the screen.

[themortalgod]

26 minutes ago, CB42 said:

Slaanesh Bestigors in Depraved Drove / HoS are looking REALLY good. I know people have mentioned them, but 30 of them force about 50% more saves than 20 Seekers against enemies with at least 10 models, and 25% more saves against enemies with less than 10 models, and cost 300 points instead of 480 points. And Bestigors do about 139% more damage than 30 Daemonettes, who also cost 300 points. Hell, even against stormcast with a 4+ save with no units with at least 10 models, and the Daemonettes are in the mortal wound battalion (one of the best situations for Daemonettes relative to Bestigors), the Bestigors still average 70% more damage after saves than the Daemonettes in the Euphoric Revellers battalion. Obviously the Seekers are also good because of their mobility, and the Daemonettes are still good because you can get them in multiple ranks (so you don't have a 38 inch spread of models across half the board) and the Keeper can make them fight twice if wholly within 12", but Bestigors are probably the best turn 1 alpha strike we have. All the math above assumes you have ways to get everyone to reroll 1s to hit.

You can take the Contorted Epitome with its reroll failed casting rolls and position it out of unbind range to almost guarantee that you get Chronomantic Cogs off. Bestigors then can move 11", run 1d6+1", and charge 2d6+2" (or 2d6+3" in a Godseekers), rerolling charges if within 12" of an enemy hero with an artifact. With a CP to run 6", that's a turn 1 charge on any deployment in the game.

Benefiting from the exploding 6s turning into 3 hits is absurdly good. Assuming you're Pretenders or against Order, and hitting an enemy's screen / battleline so you're hitting units with 10+ models, you force an average of 71 saves with -1 rend, probably spread across 2-4 units since you have to spread the Besties out so much. But assuming about 2/3 of those go through, you're chewing through about a third of an army's wounds characteristic with a 300 point unit that still has a 4+ save and 30 wounds for the enemy to get through on their counterpunch. And even if they have units that can fight first, you can charge one unit that can't fight first and stay 3.1 inches away from 2-3 other units and pile into their Flesh Eater General with Savage Strike or Bloodthirster or whatever that fights at the start of the turn but wasn't eligible to fight. And if you get 8 depraved drove Bestigors into a FEC ghoul king on royal zombie dragon with an artifact, you can expect to average about 13.3 wounds worth of damage to it - enough that with a good roll you can kill it before it fights.

I've already painted up 30 Slaaneshi Bestigors but I may get another 30. Launch 30 of them in turn 1, turn 2 retreat all the survivors and launch another 30 into the surviving enemy. The enemy doesn't even leave their deployment zone for 2 full rounds while they're trying to deal with a horde of 4+ save models that just commit excessive murder. Although I might switch to doing the same thing with Gors as one of the best per points screen killers in the game (210 points for 30 models to force 30 saves, while still having a 4+ save in melee? Hell yeah), which would then open up Bestigors to charge in turn 2 after the Gors have mostly died killing the screen.

Interesting. On top of that Shoggoths are actually also really efficient for their points cost and bring a nice chunk of DP generating wounds along with self healing. 

[CB42]

11 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Interesting. On top of that Shoggoths are actually also really efficient for their points cost and bring a nice chunk of DP generating wounds along with self healing. 

I personally really like Doombulls more than Shaggoths - as an 8 wound model at 120 points, it's probably the most depravity-wounds per point model we have access to. That said, dragon ogor shaggoths are still good, especially if you aren't bringing a ton of wizards. Given the prevalence of 3+ or 2+ save enemies, especially some like a buffed Durthu who can ignore rend of -1, though, I like Doombulls as one of the only cheap -2 rend units we have.

Edited April 29, 2019 by CB42

[themortalgod]

18 minutes ago, CB42 said:

I personally really like Doombulls more than Shaggoths - as an 8 wound model at 120 points, it's probably the most depravity-wounds per point model we have access to. That said, dragon ogor shaggoths are still good, especially if you aren't bringing a ton of wizards. Given the prevalence of 3+ or 2+ save enemies, especially some like a buffed Durthu who can ignore rend of -1, though, I like Doombulls as one of the only cheap -2 rend units we have.

You know, point for point, ungors are actually pretty nasty too in Slaanesh. Take unit with spears. 200pts buys you 40wounds worth of models that have 2" range and a 25mm base. Which means in most cases all 40 get to attack. Hitting on 5+ isn't great but re-rolling 1s and 2s means lots of opportunity to re-roll into 6s. 

On average that is going to force ~18 saves. Pretty damn good for a measly 200pts and 5pts per wound with a 5+ save in close combat is really nice.  Think about this army:

Depraved Drove - 150pts

Keeper of Secrets - 360pts

Shaggoth - 180pts

Great Bray Shaman - 100pts

Syll'Eske - 200pts  

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

Total: 1990pts. 

 

Good luck killing all that considering they are all immune to battleshock.  Army is only 3 drops too.   

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by themortalgod

[CB42]

1 minute ago, themortalgod said:

You know, point for point, ungors are actually pretty nasty too in Slaanesh. Take unit with spears. 200pts buys you 40wounds worth of models that have 2" range and a 25mm base. Which means in most cases all 40 get to attack. Hitting on 5+ isn't great but re-rolling 1s and 2s means lots of opportunity to re-roll into 6s. 

On average that is going to force ~18 saves. Pretty damn good for a measly 200pts and 5pts per wound with a 5+ save in close combat is really nice.  Think about this army:

Depraved Drove - 150pts

Keeper of Secrets - 360pts

Shaggoth - 180pts

Great Bray Shaman - 100pts

Syll'Eske - 200pts  

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

40x Ungors - 200pts

Total: 1990pts. 

 

Good luck killing all that considering they are all immune to battleshock.  

 

 

Only while wholly within 18" of Syll'Esske while they're using a command point, though. But that is a LOT of wounds to have to chew through, even with battleshock for some of them.

What about this:

* Depraved Drove 150

* Keeper - 360

* Doombull - 120

* GBS - 100

* GBS - 100

* Syll'Esske - 200

* 40x Ungors - 200

* 40x Ungors - 200

* 30x Gors - 210

* 30x Bestigors - 300

* Chronomantic Cogs - 60

2000 pts

Two GBS allows you to launch Gors and Bestigors across the board, or put one in the middle of an Ungor blob to launch Ungors around. Cogs lets you T1 charge if you see the opportunity. You can probably keep Syll near the two Ungor blobs to make them battleshock immune while the Gors and Bestigors spread out to do as much damage as possible.

[themortalgod]

 

 

 

 

 

4

5 minutes ago, CB42 said:

Only while wholly within 18" of Syll'Esske while they're using a command point, though. But that is a LOT of wounds to have to chew through, even with battleshock for some of them.

What about this:

* Depraved Drove 150

* Keeper - 360

* Doombull - 120

* GBS - 100

* GBS - 100

* Syll'Esske - 200

* 40x Ungors - 200

* 40x Ungors - 200

* 30x Gors - 210

* 30x Bestigors - 300

* Chronomantic Cogs - 60

2000 pts

Two GBS allows you to launch Gors and Bestigors across the board, or put one in the middle of an Ungor blob to launch Ungors around. Cogs lets you T1 charge if you see the opportunity. You can probably keep Syll near the two Ungor blobs to make them battleshock immune while the Gors and Bestigors spread out to do as much damage as possible.

Interesting, though I don't think 30 Gors are better than an Ungor blob. The 2" range and smaller base is really good when its a lower cost per wound.  Also since Syll'Esske doesn't have to use the CP unless you need it, most turns it won't be used so I think it can work well. Holy within is an issue for sure, but a 36" diameter circle is pretty huge coverage.

[CB42]

2 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Interesting, though I don't think 30 Gors are better than an Ungor blob. The 2" range and smaller base is really good when its a lower cost per wound.  Also since Syll'Esske doesn't have to use the CP unless you need it, most turns it won't be used so I think it can work well. Holy within is an issue for sure, but a 36" diameter circle is pretty huge coverage.

They serve different purposes. Ungors are better tarpits and for holding an objective or fighting one unit. Ungors develop board control by being great screens. Gors are for launching across the board to clear screens. They develop board control by stopping the other team from screening and getting in their face early, while being 90 points cheaper than Bestigors, who are there to commit murder.

I think Ungors are better than Gors if you had to pick one - it’s better to have a great screen than the cheapest screen killers - but I like the flexibility of having both.

[Poryague]

It does seem our strengths are speed, damage, and summoning. Probably building to maximize some combination of that would be best.

[SwampHeart]

1 hour ago, CB42 said:

Gors are for launching across the board to clear screens.

As a long time BoC player I can tell you they don't do this well either. 

[CB42]

1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

As a long time BoC player I can tell you they don't do this well either. 

Well, they certainly don’t without triple exploding 6s and rerolling 1s. Pretenders Slaanesh Gors do literally double the damage of Beasts of Chaos Gors.

Here’s another way of thinking of it: when they have 20+ models in Slaanesh, they hit like Daemonettes with no rend. That’s a lot of saves forced from a 210 point model.

Edited April 30, 2019 by CB42

[azdimy]

On 4/28/2019 at 3:30 PM, swarmofseals said:

Where are people seeing the points cost on the FW Keeper? Also, I've seen some folks saying that Pretenders can only have one hero. Where is that coming from?

GW updated the monstrous arcanum pdf available on the warhammer community site

[SwampHeart]

44 minutes ago, CB42 said:

Here’s another way of thinking of it: when they have 20+ models in Slaanesh, they hit like Daemonettes with no rend. That’s a lot of saves forced from a 210 point model.

Yes but you could just take 20 daemonettes instead. I mean if you want to give them a shot feel free but I don't rate them even with HoS allegiance abilities. 

[CB42]

5 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Yes but you could just take 20 daemonettes instead. I mean if you want to give them a shot feel free but I don't rate them even with HoS allegiance abilities. 

Daemonettes are 4 inches slower than Gors with a Great Bray Shaman (meaning they can’t consistently cross the field turn 1) and cost 43% more.

Those 90 points are 1.5 MSU Ungors that I can use for screening, or half of a 40 man squad of Ungors. Or it’s a Great Bray Shaman.

And again, the difference between a Gor who averages forcing 0.5 saves per model and a Gor who averages forcing 0.97 saves per model is the difference between a Gor unit that bounces off a screen with a 5+, killing 1/3 of it before getting slain in the counterpunch (thus why they’re useless in BoC) and a Gor unit that kills 2/3 of a screening unit and either forces a cp for battleshock or causes more of the screen to flee from battleshock.... and then the Gors die in the counterpunch. Which is when the Bestigors charge the now screenless enemy turn 2.

[Incineroar87]

I know it’s been established that it’s hard to fit the good stuff at 1K due to everything being expensive, is summoning spam the best way to go at 1K to get key pieces like KOS / fiends as opposed to paying points for them ?

 

whats our best list for 1K to get DP ripe and fast ?