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CB42 last won the day on June 21

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85 Celestant-Prime

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  1. Yes and no. If you take them in a Depraved Drove battalion, they get the exploding 6s and generate depravity and you can summon from them or have them sacrifice to the Fane, but they don’t get the fight last locus or any spell lores, and can’t be selected to fight twice.
  2. Stormcast ballistas and longstrikes; Seraphon Thunderquake Starhost; Skaven warp lightning cannons or jezzails (or both); Kharadron overlords with a unit of 40 arkanauts buffed with an aetherkhemist and using only light skyhooks; Bonesplittas arrowboy spam in a Kunnin Rukk (see Team England’s lists at ETC this year) (likely to be changed soon); Freeguild crossbowmen with Tau Overwatch (see Team america’s roster at ETC) (likely to be changed soon).
  3. 1. Yes, both can 2. Keeper whose turn it is fights twice, then Keeper whose turn it is not fights twice
  4. I run a list that isn’t built around summoning (it primarily summons over the course of the game 1-3 MSU Daemonettes for holding objectives). I’ve won a GT and placed top 3 at 4 other events, so I’ve had a lot of success with it competitively, but it is definitely not how the vast majority of people play slaanesh. And it’s VERY hit or miss - if you mess up at all in deployment or who you charge or who to locus, you kind of just lose the game. But the point is... with nerfed summoning, Slaanesh can still hang with the big boys, but lists need to be reformed into things that aren’t just hero hammer. And there’s no safety blanket if the Slaanesh player makes a mistake.
  5. I've been playing Slaanesh since well before the battletome. The problem is not that there is summoning, it's that summoning is too cheap. Putting arbitrary restrictions (once per turn, must use or lose it, etc) is a bad way to address it; ask Khorne players how they feel about losing blood tithe points. If you can get to the same outcome (more balanced summoning) by either adding arbitrary restrictions or changing relative efficiency by changing costs, it's preferable to change costs than add restrictions. The right way to address it is to increase the depravity costs for summoning, I'd estimate by about 50%. If a new Keeper of Secrets cost 45 points instead of 30 points, it would mean that killing a Keeper generates 30% of the points to get a new one rather than now, where it generates 50% of the points to get a new one. Someone who takes 3 keepers and generates 10-15 depravity from other sources (charging as godseekers, summoning near the fane, etc) generates about 44 depravity points when those keepers die; right now, that person could get 2 keepers of secrets having done no damage, but with an increase in summoning costs, they'd be able to get 1 keeper and 10 daemonettes. And that would be for a list built entirely around generating depravity. Killing 3 keepers of secrets and them getting 1 back feels way less oppressive than killing 3 keepers and them getting 2 back. This makes Slaanesh lists that are not built around summoning more viable as there's less opportunity cost. Yeah, maybe that 1 keeper / 1 epitome / 90 daemonettes with mortal wounds on 6s to wound battalion list isn't really viable right now because why not just take more heroes, but if the relative efficiency of heroes is reduced because of summoning cost nerfs, non-heroes are relatively more impactful to take in a Slaanesh list. And honestly, once summoning is nerfed a little bit, the rest of Slaanesh is still strong but nowhere near as overpowered. The locus is especially harsh for certain armies but can be played around - it's mostly bad when people are getting introduced to the game or are otherwise somewhat new to playing around fight first / fight last / fight twice stuff, but that's also true of FEC, FS, Khorne, Idoneth, new Sylvaneth, and anyone else who plays the "activation wars" game. And @Swampheart is right - a Keeper who fights twice is good for their points, and a Keeper who fights once is really bad for their points. Their entire efficiency right now is based on summoning and how much CP the slaanesh player can funnel into them. Which is part of why taking multiple keepers isn't actually that efficient unless you can feed all of them cp to fight twice... except for how much depravity generation they have, which is why summoning should be nerfed.
  6. If you hit hard and have a lot of bodies, you can also kill the heroes on one half of the board and then just clog up movement to slow the surviving / summoned Slaanesh units from reaching the half of the board you now control. I’ve done this with my alpha strike Slaanesh against summoning Slaanesh using my Ungors and summoned Daemonettes to screen off the newly captured left side of the board, and I’ve also seen it done by seraphon, just summoning or teleporting tons of skinks into multiple layers of screens cutting off the right side of the board. Heavy shooting armies with good screens can just keep killing keepers as they get resummoned. You can also out drop them, give them first turn, screen hard with your army more than 3” back from your screen (since Slaanesh can only activate a second time if they’re within 3” of an enemy), then hit them hard on your turn. This works especially well if you have some form of strike first on your turn or make them strike last or activate to fight from 6” away (FEC, Khorne, Daughters, Sylvaneth, BoC with Taurus, Nighthaunt with spell), but you can work around the locus, like charging a small unit and staying 3.1” from the Keeper, and then piling into the Keeper when you fight. Then, of course, there are missions like Scorched Earth and Better Part of Valour where you can burn objectives and win the game if you get ahead early, or Relocation orb where if you get lucky with priority rolls turns 3-5, it can be impossible for someone to come back. Obviously slaanesh is strong, but between playing the mission and playing around the locus and summoning, there are ways to beat them with most armies.
  7. Shalaxi kills keepers real well and the 6" pile in to tie up from 3" away presumably works quite well against 30 daemonettes. The list also has enough CP to continue fighting twice throughout the game, whereas some Slaanesh lists have enough CP to fight twice with several units turn 1 and then once a battle round after that, which means that when both sides summon a keeper and some daemonettes, Rhellion's list will be able to continue fighting twice.
  8. Rhellion's list has both battalions.
  9. How do you use Syll'Esske? It sounds like you've got Keeper/Shalaxi/Chariot/Syll'Esske as a deathball grouping, with the Epitome staying back to provide a CP farm and backup summoning platform, and the Hellstriders w/ battalion and The Masque serving to hold enemy units in place or take lightly defended objectives. Is that correct? Also, what are your go-to summons? Do you tend to bring back Keepers, or do you summon in blocks of Daemonettes? Or other heroes?
  10. It's worth noting that 30 daemonettes fighting twice does the exact same amount of damage as 30 Bestigors on the charge without fighting twice... but if the Bestigors are attacking 10+ models, or heroes with artifacts, the bestigors now outdamage the Daemonettes fighting twice significantly (by 20% against units with 10+ models, or by 50% against heroes with artifacts. Bestigors are also 4 inches faster than daemonettes and can pile in 4 inches instead of 3, which has come in handy for me in the past. And you can solve most of the issues with fighting in one rank by spreading out in deployment and using Cogs to get them even more movement so that they can spread out 30 models wide from the 19 wide during deployment.
  11. I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is that the bestigors will feel underwhelming if you can't get all of them into combat, but absolutely dominate when you can spread them nice and wide and get them into a whole bunch of enemies. It's part of why I use Cogs even when I don't need to cast it to get the bestigors into combat - the extra movement and the extra charge distance allows for more spreading out to get from about 19 models wide (to stay wholly within 12" of my GBS) up to 30 models wide. Let's take an enemy bloodthirster with an artifact, plus 20 Blood Warriors (4+ save, 2 wounds each). A Keeper of Secrets fighting twice will average 17 damage to whichever one it charges, but it can't really effectively fight both at the same time - 17 damage is enough to kill a third of the blood warriors or enough to kill a bloodthirster, on average, but there's a pretty solid chance the thirster survives with 1-5 wounds and hits back hard enough to cripple or kill the Keeper. And the surviving unit can continue to do terrible khorne things. 10 Bestigors into the bloodthirster and 20 bestigors into the Blood Warriors will average 21 wounds onto the bloodthirster (14 wounds if the bloodthirster doesn't have an artifact) and 27 wounds onto the blood warriors - almost 2/3 of the blood warriors. And because bestigors throw so many dice at the table, they have less volatility - they're more likely to be hitting their averages, and their averages absolutely destroy enemy units. This forces the Khorne player to CP their blood warriors to avoid losing the unit. Basically, I think Bestigors should ideally be swinging into 2 units, not 1 unit, and they'll be able to wipe both units. A keeper has a much, much lower damage potential than the bestigors, but can easily get all of it into combat; the bestigors need a lot more planning and movement support (GBS, cogs). But the payoff is way higher from an alpha strike perspective for the bestigors. Final note: Taking Depraved Drove means you can get to 4 drops without taking Sybarites or Epicurean, plus you can take 3 x 10 ungors for 180 points, which are some of the cheapest sources of screening and objective holding that we have access to. And while the Great Bray Shaman is a 100 point tax to make Bestigors go fast and get access to the battalion, the GBS can hang back and guarantee that your heroes don't all die before you can spend your depravity points. The GBS also can stay out of unbind range for spells like Cogs. If the tradeoff is taking 730 points in 3 x 10 Ungors, GBS, Depraved Drove, and 30 Bestigors than taking 810 points in 3 x 10 Daemonettes plus Supreme Sybarites plus a second Keeper, I think the first works a lot better in an alpha strike heavy list and the second works better in a hero-heavy summoning focused list.
  12. I run my 40 Ungors with swords and clubs. If I charge them in, I can get 2 rows of 20; if I get charged while they’re screening my army, enough of them will die that they won’t fight in 3 ranks.
  13. In general, the Great Bray Shaman stays fairly far back (20-28 inches from the enemy’s front line) and is the primary source of summoning if things go poorly. Note that the GBS counts as a Chaos Slaanesh Hero due to the Depraved Drove.
  14. 1-2 Keepers, Epitome, 1-2 Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot, maybe an Enrapturess; 20-70 Daemonettes; 0-10 Hellstriders; 0-5 Seekers OR 20 Seekers; and the supreme Sybarites battalion or the epicurean Revellers battalion if you’re Pretenders. You could also consider the Cavalcade battalion if you wanted to drop the Daemonettes and go heavy on Hellstriders and Seekers (I’d lean towards something like 3 x 5 Hellstriders and 20 Seekers to really get value out of it).
  15. I’ve been playing a pretty similar list in tournaments. I tend to bring 30 Daemonettes, an Infernal enrapturess, and 5 Seekers for summoning. A start collecting box (built as a Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot) and 2 boxes of Daemonettes would be a good “summoning sideboard”. My baseline summoning is to drop in Daemonettes and, with Chronomantic Cogs up and Godseekers allegiance, go for the rerollable 6+ charge from summoning. I bring in Seekers when I want additional mobility for late game objective grabbing, and I bring in the Enrapturess as anti-magic when I really need to. Depraved Drove is great because it gives you access to Ungors, who are ultra cheap screens and battleline; Bestigors, who are the best Slaanesh units in the game in terms of damage output; Ungor raiders, who are an even better screen than Ungors and can secure objectives right after deployment (but often don’t make the cut into my lists because) and Great Bray shamans, who are a cheap way to cast Cogs from outside unbind range, then move 11 inches forward to get a block of 30 Bestigors wholly within 12 inches of the GBS, then give them another 3 inches of movement. Ive had a ton of success with Depraved Drove, it’s great for the alpha strike, and don’t feel obligated to pack the list full of heroes to generate depravity! If you kill everything with the Bestigor alpha strike and you generate enough depravity to summon a few MSU Daemonette squads, there’s no need to build your entire list around summoning! Don’t let them peer pressure you into it! Below is my list that got me 3rd place at the Bay Area Open and 2nd place at Mythicos Triumph. If you don’t want 20 Seekers, you could easily replace them with 30 Bestigors and another Great Bray shaman. Frees up 80 points and makes you 3 drops instead of 4.
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