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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

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On 10/9/2019 at 3:08 PM, Blisterfeet said:

Hi again does anyone have any math hammer for Khorne units? I'm trying to compare which of these units is 'better' Vs 4+ save units for my goretide list. Any help appreciated.

(not looking for any other suggestions just these below)

10 Flesh hounds

20 Blood warriors

10 Wrathmongers 

3 Varanguard (allied in)

20 Splinterfang (allied in)

Unbuffed against 4+
10 dogs ~6-7w
20 warriors ~8w
10 mongers ~8-9w, ~12w with charge
Each buff adds 15-50% depending on buff and unit

Varanguard have terrible combat math and you can't mark them for buffs.
Same for splinterfangs.

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20 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:

Unbuffed against 4+
10 dogs ~6-7w
20 warriors ~8w
10 mongers ~8-9w, ~12w with charge
Each buff adds 15-50% depending on buff and unit

Varanguard have terrible combat math and you can't mark them for buffs.
Same for splinterfangs.

Thanks for this, between dogs and mongers then. 

Does this maths include likely mortal wound output of the mongers/warriors?

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@Troll.exe I've been digging through other battletomes and I found that Beasts of Chaos Gavespawn and Sylvaneth Ironbark have command abilities tied to their equivalent of Slaughterhosts with the same exact wording as how our Slaughterhosts work (ie all units gain the associated keyword and therefore gain all the abilities tied to the Slaughterhost). I'm comfortable with saying this is legal."

EDIT:
 

16 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

Thanks for this, between dogs and mongers then. 

Does this maths include likely mortal wound output of the mongers/warriors?

Also keep in mind that Blood Warriors do damage when they die too (well, only in the combat phase), which will definitely skew the math in their favor.

 

Edited by AresX8
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17 hours ago, AresX8 said:

I have a feeling I might have been playing Reapers of Vengeance wrong this entire time. Specifically, with Leave None Alive and it not requiring to measure from a Hero in order to use it.  Here's my reasoning:

Technically you are right, battletome rules trump core rules. RAW you don't need a hero.

However core rules require you to have a her to use any command ability.

Good luck trying to convince opponents and organisers that you don't need a hero.

 

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32 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

Thanks for this, between dogs and mongers then. 

Does this maths include likely mortal wound output of the mongers/warriors?

No, this is per combat phase.

You can just say that wiped out unit of warriors gets to attack a second time.

Warriors deal 1mw per 2 dead warriors approximately against no rend.

Mongers deal 1mw per 1 dead on average to heroes, 1.3mw to units (so 10 mongers deal 13) .

The only notable thing about warriors vs. other stuff is that warriors get 50% more damage from a bloodsecrator/monger buff while dogs/mongers get only 25%. That changes math a bit, but they are still at the bottom of damage dealer food chain in Khorne.

Edited by Smooth criminal
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1 hour ago, Smooth criminal said:

No, this is per combat phase.

You can just say that wiped out unit of warriors gets to attack a second time.

Warriors deal 1mw per 2 dead warriors approximately against no rend.

Mongers deal 1mw per 1 dead on average to heroes, 1.3mw to units (so 10 mongers deal 13) .

The only notable thing about warriors vs. other stuff is that warriors get 50% more damage from a bloodsecrator/monger buff while dogs/mongers get only 25%. That changes math a bit, but they are still at the bottom of damage dealer food chain in Khorne.

So @Smooth criminal with this do you have a tier list of damage output for non character units versus' 4+ save unbuffed? 

I looked through warscrolls and did a basic list and these were the frontrunners but maybe I am missing something.

Thanks for that @AresX8

 

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8 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Good luck trying to convince opponents and organisers that you don't need a hero

I don't think he's suggesting that he doesn't need a hero to use command abilities, but rather that he doesn't need to measure from a hero to the unit using Leave None Alive.

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Hey so  I am facing my mate tomorrow..we have revealed our lists.

2000pts (anti magic)

I am going:

Bloodsecrator, 3x priests, BT Fury, Skabrand.

Minimum battle line, gore pilgrims, 10x skull reapers and all judgements.

I am facing stormcast, shooting.

And my worst nightmare:

12x Longstrikes supported by relictor teleport

Azyros rr1s hit 

Spellweaver

3x5 lib

3x aetherwings 

6x desolators 

I assume he will drop desolators. In the back sniping heroes and forcing me to deal with it while getting pounded from a far. 

So I am a 4drop. My initial though was give turn screen up take dmg and idk. Pray for bad rolls lol. I will probably loose both demons T1.

So what can I do?

I am thinking giving t1 still, but stay outside with everything 31" so he looses atleast the shooting from CA. Though he could teleport them, but then he would be to close so I doubt that. 

I think it's my best chance, stay outside first turn. Move up and hope for double turn. If I dknt get it, it will just be scenario from t1 if I where to close.

 

Tips and tricks is most welcome 🤘🤘🤘

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8 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

So @Smooth criminal with this do you have a tier list of damage output for non character units versus' 4+ save unbuffed? 

I looked through warscrolls and did a basic list and these were the frontrunners but maybe I am missing something.

Thanks for that @AresX8

 

Skullreapers are the best in my experience. Their mortal wound output is high and they take buffs well, but don't require them. If they are facing a 5+ model unit or get reroll hits from a warshrine they are crazy.

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8 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

So @Smooth criminal with this do you have a tier list of damage output for non character units versus' 4+ save unbuffed? 

I looked through warscrolls and did a basic list and these were the frontrunners but maybe I am missing something.

Thanks for that @AresX8

 

Sure. Posted this some time ago, still works.

If we take rend into account it's reapers > letters/reavers (have fun positioning them) > crushers charge > mongers >  dogs > warriors.  StD falls behind.

Not adjusted by points, so I suspect mongers may actually be the best since they are the most cost-effective unit in Khorne.

1.png.c61588dbc55e9de1b6120dcb5fb59293.png

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56 minutes ago, FattBooM666 said:

Tips and tricks is most welcome 🤘🤘🤘

Take 1st turn, run everything on objectives turn 1 and sit there. Wall off with judgements.  Use blood points from dead heroes to summon stuff, bonus points for stuff that can tag longstrikes into melee, take blood sacrifice to summon faster. Position in a way so he needs to roll high to charge your dudes on the objectives. He can only retake objectives well with desolators and those can be only in 1 place.

You can give BT a no shooting realm cloak, this way he can get to longstrikes in 2 turns forcing him to do something about him.

Bronze flesh Skarbrand, put bloodsecrator in cover and give him something against mws. They are obviously dying, but it can skew the math a little maybe forcing him to not split shooting attacks. Probably a good idea to hold back Skarbrand turn 1 to not get him shot for CP and smash the desolators next turn if he manages to survive.

You get 2 turns of shooting against you no matter what you do, but if you go first you have a bit higher chance to win roll-off and the objectives will be free.

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7 hours ago, FattBooM666 said:

Hey so  I am facing my mate tomorrow..we have revealed our lists.

2000pts (anti magic)

I am going:

Bloodsecrator, 3x priests, BT Fury, Skabrand.

Minimum battle line, gore pilgrims, 10x skull reapers and all judgements.

I am facing stormcast, shooting.

 

Shootcast 😔 terrible times. 

Can you change your list? If so drop Skarbrand, he won’t make it Into combat. 

If you can’t, this is how I’d approach it.

Take the first turn and drop bronzed flesh on Skarbrand, if you’re lucky he might survive. This is more about presenting threats and accepting your losses as you close the gap. Worst case scenario Skarbrand goes down first turn and the BoUF goes down second turn. I’d put an ethereal amulet on the BoUF. There should be around 3 pieces of scenery large enough to block line of sight on the board. Consider placing Skarbrand first so he drops the archers with line of sight to him, then position the BoUF somewhere where he can avoid line of sight on turn 2.

However if you do this you’ll be presenting your bloodsecrator as the next target. Make sure he’s in cover with look out sir for +1 to save and -1 to hit. On the alter works.  If you use the gore tide slaughterhost make him your general and make him ethereal. Then as long as he doesn’t roll 3 or more 6s to hit (not great odds lol) he should survive.

The best option is probably to leave the BoUF out in the open with the ethereal amulet and keep the bloodsecrator safe since you’re taking gore pilgrims, but it’ll be a hard pill to swallow.

Youll want to close the gap asap. Focus on objectives and pick the biggest blob and aim the skullreapers at that. Realistically neither bloodthirster will do any work so the skullreapers are going to be your main killing unit. They’ll tear up that force once in combat. Liberators are meh. You’ll do well.

Stay calm and expect that you’re losing your bloodthirsters in round 1 and 2. If they survive it’ll be a bonus.

Edited by Troll.exe
Typo

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16 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

No, this is per combat phase.

You can just say that wiped out unit of warriors gets to attack a second time.

Warriors deal 1mw per 2 dead warriors approximately against no rend.

Mongers deal 1mw per 1 dead on average to heroes, 1.3mw to units (so 10 mongers deal 13) .

The only notable thing about warriors vs. other stuff is that warriors get 50% more damage from a bloodsecrator/monger buff while dogs/mongers get only 25%. That changes math a bit, but they are still at the bottom of damage dealer food chain in Khorne.

Mortal wounds back on save rolls of 6 is nice to have.

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8 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

Shootcast 😔 terrible times. 

Can you change your list? If so drop Skarbrand, he won’t make it Into combat. 

If you can’t, this is how I’d approach it.

Take the first turn and drop bronzed flesh on Skarbrand, if you’re lucky he might survive. This is more about presenting threats and accepting your losses as you close the gap. Worst case scenario Skarbrand goes down first turn and the BoUF goes down second turn. I’d put an ethereal amulet on the BoUF. There should be around 3 pieces of scenery large enough to block line of sight on the board. Consider placing Skarbrand first so he drops the archers with line of sight to him, then position the BoUF somewhere where he can avoid line of sight on turn 2.

However if you do this you’ll be presenting your bloodsecrator as the next target. Make sure he’s in cover with look out sir for +1 to save and -1 to hit. On the alter works.  If you use the gore tide slaughterhost make him your general and make him ethereal. Then as long as he doesn’t roll 3 or more 6s to hit (not great odds lol) he should survive.

The best option is probably to leave the BoUF out in the open with the ethereal amulet and keep the bloodsecrator safe since you’re taking gore pilgrims, but it’ll be a hard pill to swallow.

Youll want to close the gap asap. Focus on objectives and pick the biggest blob and aim the skullreapers at that. Realistically neither bloodthirster will do any work so the skullreapers are going to be your main killing unit. They’ll tear up that force once in combat. Liberators are meh. You’ll do well.

Stay calm and expect that you’re losing your bloodthirsters in round 1 and 2. If they survive it’ll be a bonus.

Thanks for reply !

No sadly army is set in stone.

Here is my army in detail, I went for an anti magic list. (He owns LoN, SCE, Sylvaneth, tzeentch) 

Well you think I still should go first? 

If I do that I should measure if I can try a 25-26" charge I'f he is dead anyway.  (And give bronzed flesh)

But how would the game turn out I'f I give the turn.

I stay 31" away (from his longstrikes) with everything. (Or probably need to place blood reavers in front so he thinks i play standard) means his CA shooting is dead. Only he can do is teleport them closer but will only have 1 shooting then. 🤔

I'd he does that relictor is not there to save him. 

Also if i do like this i dont he will drop azyros and the 6 desolators. (Easy kill) 

If I go 2nd and outside 30", he cant kill anything. And after turn 1 its anyones game. If I win both are alive and fairly close to his army. I could still do bronzed flesh, sacrifice skarbrand (if he gets priority roll. And If i wait a turn I got one more CP for another combat with the potential BoUF. 🤔

Maybe I have less time doing objectives like that idk, but it sounds good in my head negating a shooting, having a shot at the whole army alive for a t2 roll off instead of giving skarbrand up. 

 

If I take t1 I am sure his desolators will be dropped in the back sniping heroes and tries a 9" charge. And forcing me to take care of it and buying more time for his longstrikes.

Same thing will happen if I do my tactic aswell, if I win priority he might drop them elsewhere to save stuff. But I think either way he will go for backline on heroes.  Hmm..

I might be wrong, but it's nice discussing the ideas :)

 

 

Screenshot_20191009-221632_WH AoS.jpg

Screenshot_20191009-221624_WH AoS.jpg

Screenshot_20191009-221613_WH AoS.jpg

Edited by FattBooM666

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11 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Sure. Posted this some time ago, still works.

If we take rend into account it's reapers > letters/reavers (have fun positioning them) > crushers charge > mongers >  dogs > warriors.  StD falls behind.

Not adjusted by points, so I suspect mongers may actually be the best since they are the most cost-effective unit in Khorne.

1.png.c61588dbc55e9de1b6120dcb5fb59293.png

Thanks Smooth this is exactly the sort of cheat sheet I needed. Now to paint the remainder for Blood and Glory. Think I'll go mongers taking everything on board and dogs for cheap summons. 

Is consensus to run units MSU or in bigger blobs? I can see MSU being better for tithe points and bigger blobs for buff efficiency. 

I'll report back about the warm-up tourny (1st time with army changed from FEC) and see what needs changing for B&G

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@Blisterfeet It really depends on the unit. Small units (ie 5 models) of Blood Warriors don't really do much, 10 models is a lot better since you'll get access to the Goreglaive. The main issue is that our infantry units are on 32mm's or larger, which hurts a lot with all of the wholly within buff bubbles that we have. 

This is what I follow as a rule of thumb:

- No more than 10 models in a Blood Warriors unit.
- No more than 20 models in a Bloodreavers unit. 10 is ideal as a fire and forget missile.
- No more than 20 models in a Bloodletters unit (although there are some reasons why you'd want to go to 30).
- No more than 6 models for Skullcrushers/Bloodcrushers.
- No more than 5 models for Flesh Hounds, Skullreapers or Wrathmongers.
 

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Khorne generally wants to run in smaller units because all our warscrolls suck in big blobs because of base sizes and melee range. And to avoid drop count bloat you'll want those in battalions.

The only exempts are mongers with long chains and using BoC  units.

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Mini report from 1 day shop event. 14 players.

Went 1 and 2 with what I had built as other Khorne models didn't arrive in time. Winner of the tournament was a shootcast list beating out a daemons of Khorne list in second. 

My list in 1st spoiler and report in 2nd for anyone who cares to read.

Spoiler

Chaos Lord on Manticore  - Hew the Foe, Sword of Judgement, Chaos Lance, Daemon Blade, General, Khorne

Daemon Prince (of Khorne)  Hellforged Sword, Wings

Skarbrand 

10 Chaos Warriors, Chaos Hand Weapons and Chaos Runeshields, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

Chaos Knights 10 Chaos Glaive, Hornblower, Khorne, Standard Bearer

Battalion: Gore Pilgrims 

. Blood Warriors: 5 Blood Warriors, Goreaxe and Gorefist
. Bloodreavers: 10 Bloodreavers, Meatripper Axes
. Bloodsecrator: Thronebreaker's Torc
. Slaughterpriest: 1. Bronzed Flesh, Bloodbathed Axe
. Slaughterpriest: 1. Bronzed Flesh, Hackblade and Ball thingy

Slaughter host
. Khorne: The Goretide

As you can see this is no way competitive but I didn't know the club that well so had no idea the level of lists.

Turns out pretty on par with the meta. Skaven, Ironjawz, Khorne, Fec, Cities of Sigmar, Sylvaneth + Gotrek, Shootcast.

Spoiler

Game 1 - played FEC Blisterskin on Duality, 2 GKoTG, 1 Arkhan, AAR, Ghoul patrol (50 with summons) and 6 summoned flayers. He was a GT heat 3 player and it showed.

He made me go first and I just tried to screen Skarbrand for Turn 2 going first. He soon dealt with the screens with the highlight being curse of years clearing all 10 Knights in a blink of an eye. 

With Skarbrand exposed through a slight gap the roll for double turn went his way and that's all she wrote two GKoTG chomped through that side and accumulation of obj and a lack of counter punch and GG. Major loss.

Game 2 - played versus a Stardrake centred Stormcast list with 20 sequitor blob 10 shooter Bois and some Dracoths. Was shifting objectives and I managed to get the choice and went second. Much much closer Skarbrand went mental and killed his Stardrake with a 16 wound wonder punch. Lost because objective rolled under the sequitors 2 turns in a row and this was opposite side to my Skar by the end of turn 4 I could draw before time but failed my charge roll twice on Skar and me and the stormcast laughed and it's was done. 14-11 but with victory points worked out as major loss again.

Game 3 - FEC Hallowmourne list with double battalion. Much fluffier FEC list on Focal Points. Skar went off big time killed over half his army after chomping through his Horror and ZD flank and I snowballed objectives to major win.

Overall the Khorne elements were great. The warriors were a sturdy backfield objective holder, but the 500+ points in the general, DP and knights were well a let down 😆😆

No surprises really and I hope with the improvements discussed earlier in the thread my next list will be a bit more competitive.

Came joint first for best sportsmanship award so we rolled off lowest roll wins 😂😂 I rolled good for once!

Finished 9th overall.

 

Edited by Blisterfeet

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On 10/10/2019 at 5:54 PM, Roark said:

I don't think he's suggesting that he doesn't need a hero to use command abilities, but rather that he doesn't need to measure from a hero to the unit using Leave None Alive.

Yup, this is exactly what I'm saying!

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On 10/11/2019 at 9:20 AM, FattBooM666 said:

Hey so  I am facing my mate tomorrow..we have revealed our lists.

2000pts (anti magic)

I am going:

Bloodsecrator, 3x priests, BT Fury, Skabrand.

Minimum battle line, gore pilgrims, 10x skull reapers and all judgements.

I am facing stormcast, shooting.

And my worst nightmare:

12x Longstrikes supported by relictor teleport

Azyros rr1s hit 

Spellweaver

3x5 lib

3x aetherwings 

6x desolators 

I assume he will drop desolators. In the back sniping heroes and forcing me to deal with it while getting pounded from a far. 

So I am a 4drop. My initial though was give turn screen up take dmg and idk. Pray for bad rolls lol. I will probably loose both demons T1.

So what can I do?

I am thinking giving t1 still, but stay outside with everything 31" so he looses atleast the shooting from CA. Though he could teleport them, but then he would be to close so I doubt that. 

I think it's my best chance, stay outside first turn. Move up and hope for double turn. If I dknt get it, it will just be scenario from t1 if I where to close.

 

Tips and tricks is most welcome 🤘🤘🤘

Give your priests blood sacrifice hope to heck for 2 blood tithe, summon a unit of 5 blood letters in a daisy chain where you think you might get deep-striked and then pray to the blood god. My mate plays stormcast and fyreslayers and I have found that 5 little bloodletters can be really annoying with the 9" from an enemy unit rule. 

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8 hours ago, AresX8 said:

Yup, this is exactly what I'm saying!

How would you be a "daemon w/ this CMD ability" without also being a hero?

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2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

How would you be a "daemon w/ this CMD ability" without also being a hero?

Because all Daemon models in a Reapers of Vengeance Slaughterhost get the command ability when they get the Reapers of Vengeance keyword.

From pg 70 of the battletome (bolded for emphasis by me):

Quote

If your army is a Khorne army, you can give it a Slaughterhost keyword. All Khorne units in your army gain that keyword. If a model already has a
Slaughterhost keyword, it cannot gain another one, but this does not prevent other units in your army from having a different Slaughterhost keyword. You
can either choose one of the Slaughterhosts listed below, or choose another Slaughterhost you have read about or created yourself. If you choose one from the list below, all units with that keyword benefit from the extra abilities listed for that Slaughterhost on the page indicated. If you choose a different Slaughterhost, simply pick the Slaughterhost that most closely matches the nature of your own.

Leave None Alive also does not check for a Daemon Hero, only a Daemon model (bolded for emphasis by me):

Quote

You can use this command ability at the start of the combat phase. If you do so, pick 1 friendly REAPERS OF VENGEANCE DAEMON unit wholly within 8" of a friendly DAEMON model with this command ability. After that unit has fought in the combat phase for the first time, if it is within 3" of an enemy unit it can immediately make a pile-in move and then attack with all of the melee weapons it is armed with for a second time.

 

Saying that you must measure all command abilities from a Hero is not correct. The Command Ability itself states whether or not it needs a Hero to be "the source" (meaning when the command ability is used, to measure from a specific Hero), otherwise the Gavespawn command ability from Beasts of Chaos wouldn't work as from my understanding Gavespawn Chaos Spawns have no way of gaining the Hero keyword, or the Hammers of Sigmar command ability to bring back units on a 5+ wouldn't work,  or the Sylvaneth Ironbark command ability would not work.

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35 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

Because all Daemon models in a Reapers of Vengeance Slaughterhost get the command ability when they get the Reapers of Vengeance keyword.

From pg 70 of the battletome (bolded for emphasis by me):

Leave None Alive also does not check for a Daemon Hero, only a Daemon model (bolded for emphasis by me):

 

Saying that you must measure all command abilities from a Hero is not correct. The Command Ability itself states whether or not it needs a Hero to be "the source" (meaning when the command ability is used, to measure from a specific Hero), otherwise the Gavespawn command ability from Beasts of Chaos wouldn't work as from my understanding Gavespawn Chaos Spawns have no way of gaining the Hero keyword, or the Hammers of Sigmar command ability to bring back units on a 5+ wouldn't work,  or the Sylvaneth Ironbark command ability would not work.

Apologies, you are correct but not for what my question was. I mistakenly believed you needed to have the HERO keyword to use CMD abilities in general. But, no sure general rule exists.

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The core book is pretty clear "If you have any HEROES in your army, you can use command abilities."

The hero is required to USE the command ability, but you don't have to MEASURE the ability from the hero unless it says so.

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9 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Apologies, you are correct but not for what my question was. I mistakenly believed you needed to have the HERO keyword to use CMD abilities in general. But, no sure general rule exists.

I totally get that, as the following from the core rules from pg 228 of the big rulebook:
 

Quote

If you have any HEROES in your army, you can use command abilities.

Can be read in such a way. 

What's great about this specific clause is it's essentially a list check. The term "army" is actually defined on pg 226 of the big rulebook, I bolded the specific part I'm referring to:

Quote

THE ARMIES

Each player in a game of Warhammer Age of Sigmar commands an army. Armies can be as big as you like, and you can use as many models from your collection as you wish. The more models you decide to use, the longer the game will last and the more exciting it will be. Typically, a game with around a hundred miniatures per side will last for about an evening. Models from your army are referred to as friendly models, and models from the opposing army are referred to as enemy models. If a rule states that it affects ‘models’ or ‘units’ without specifying that they are friendly or enemy, then it affects all
models, friend or foe.


 

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