AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Skabnoze]

The lesson here is to be careful with stacking multiplicative effects in games.  A good rule of thumb is that exponents don’t belong in tabletop games.

[Skabnoze]

I don’t really see the issue with the Engine of the Gods.  Mathematically it is not that bad.  Without a Slaan it has to roll on the high end to summon a unit if it is undamaged.  With a Slaan it has a fairly good chance to get the summon, but it is still slightly above average.  If you knock 5 wounds off of it then it cannot score high enough for the summon with or without a Slaan.

It seems strong, but too terrible.  That said, I will agree that the cost on it seems too low and it probably should have been unique.  But apart from an absurdly low cost I don’t think that thing is game-breaking.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Skabnoze

[Rock Lobster]

8 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I’m feeling really frustrated right now. I keep playing against this Skaven player and I feel completely helpless. They have so much shooting and ****** mortal wound generators that they just literally get free damage. He never suffers the supposed draw backs of this alleged RNG, he just always seems to roll well and hit and do what he needs. Multiple times he’s deleted my Gore-Gruntas before they could even do a single attack, with mortal wound spamming and shooting. 

How the ****** do you deal with Skaven? They bring more wizards than we can, they bring more guns than we have period and they ****** mortal wounds like it’s their only source of nutrition. I triggered two full turns/combat round of smashing and bashing deleting 3 units each time AND I STILL LOST. He just shot my guys camping objectives and I was too far forward to run back so I had to go for HIS objective markers or waste turns backtracking. 

Do we have a counter to Skaven, or is it Rock Paper Scissors design and they’re rock and we’re scissors ? 

Difficult to say without seeing lists but against someone like skaven with a lot of shooting I tend to ignore the objectives for the first 1-2 turns and seek to engage and destroy as quickly as possible before going for objectives. Otherwise they shoot you off the table when you spread out.

go 1-drop with blood toofs, cast cogs and keep within 15” of General. Turn 1 charges are possible, then 2 is certain.

unleash multiple Waaghs and crush them in melee.

[Ravinsild]

39 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Difficult to say without seeing lists but against someone like skaven with a lot of shooting I tend to ignore the objectives for the first 1-2 turns and seek to engage and destroy as quickly as possible before going for objectives. Otherwise they shoot you off the table when you spread out.

go 1-drop with blood toofs, cast cogs and keep within 15” of General. Turn 1 charges are possible, then 2 is certain.

unleash multiple Waaghs and crush them in melee.

It was 1000 points. I know both of our lists. 

1 Skaven Packmaster

2 Warlock Engineer

1 Plague Priest 

10 Plague Monks 

10 Plague Monks 

1 Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team

1 Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team 

1 Ratling Gun Team

1 Doomwheel

1 Warp Lightning Cannon

My List was: 

1 Megaboss on Foot

1 Warchanter 

1 Weirdknob Shaman 

10 Ardboys 

5 Brutes 

3 Gore-Gruntas 

1 Ironfist Battalion 

 

[Tip4Tap]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I don’t really see the issue with the Engine of the Gods.  Mathematically it is not that bad.  Without a Slaan it has to roll on the high end to summon a unit if it is undamaged.  With a Slaan it has a fairly good chance to get the summon, but it is still slightly above average.  If you knock 5 wounds off of it then it cannot score high enough for the summon with or without a Slaan.

It seems strong, but too terrible.  That said, I will agree that the cost on it seems too low and it probably should have been unique.  But apart from an absurdly low cost I don’t think that thing is game-breaking.

Sure one isn't so bad. If you get a chance take a look at the 6 nations lists. Darren Watson is bringing 4 and a slann. 

[Izikail]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

It was 1000 points. I know both of our lists. 

1 Skaven Packmaster

2 Warlock Engineer

1 Plague Priest 

10 Plague Monks 

10 Plague Monks 

1 Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team

1 Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team 

1 Ratling Gun Team

1 Doomwheel

1 Warp Lightning Cannon

My List was: 

1 Megaboss on Foot

1 Warchanter 

1 Weirdknob Shaman 

10 Ardboys 

5 Brutes 

3 Gore-Gruntas 

1 Ironfist Battalion 

 

I would suggest drop the weird nob as you dont even have enough orks on the bord to give him a casting buff. Id say either

Swap ardboys for another grunter unit to tie up ranged units

Remove weird nob and ardboys get a fungoid shaman, gruntas, cogs

Or double down on the shaman swap ironfist for weirdfist, swap the gruntas for boys to trigger your caster buff and be close to the nob, remove warchanter and get a balewind so you can spell spam.

[Malakree]

As a note ironjawz get considerably weaker at 1k because our stuff costs so much. At 2k you are adding way more power to your army, relatively, than he is.

2 hours ago, Tip4Tap said:

Sure one isn't so bad. If you get a chance take a look at the 6 nations lists. Darren Watson is bringing 4 and a slann. 

Yeah...I don't think there should be any dice fixing or rerolls on the engine and I agree it should be unique.

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

It was 1000 points. I know both of our lists. 

1 Skaven Packmaster

2 Warlock Engineer

1 Plague Priest 

10 Plague Monks 

10 Plague Monks 

1 Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team

1 Warpfire Thrower Weapon Team 

1 Ratling Gun Team

1 Doomwheel

1 Warp Lightning Cannon

My List was: 

1 Megaboss on Foot

1 Warchanter 

1 Weirdknob Shaman 

10 Ardboys 

5 Brutes 

3 Gore-Gruntas 

1 Ironfist Battalion 

 

As a primarily skaven player, you shouldn't have too many troubles with that but you absolutely rely on a double turn or getting everything in charging range before he has a turn to shoot.. Clan Skryre can pack a punch but overall Skaven tend to be quite frail to compensate.

The biggest threat range is the WLC at 24" and it would probably be better to drop the ardboyz at the very least for another gruntas unit to have the speed to kill the cannon and 2 engineers. I would even suggest dropping a Warchanter and give your shaman a balewind+cogs.

The rest of that army isn't going to be doing much of anything (2x10 monks is laughable) so I would ignore everything but the shooting/wizard units and go for that double, especially since you should be out dropping him on deployment and get to decide who goes first. 

[Tip4Tap]

Just to give you an idea of how busted engine of the god can be. AoS 6 nations Darren Watson summoned 900 points worth of units and ended a Tzeentch army turn 2.

[Vanger]

Maybe I should ask my question in the rules thread, but here it goes. Can units belong to multiple warscroll battalions? Say, I bring 5 units of brutes and can they belong both to Brutefist, Ironfist and Weirdfist (with acompanying shaman)?

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Vanger said:

Maybe I should ask my question in the rules thread, but here it goes. Can units belong to multiple warscroll battalions? Say, I bring 5 units of brutes and can they belong both to Brutefist, Ironfist and Weirdfist (with acompanying shaman)?

No. The only way a unit can be in two battalions is if the battalion is part of a mega battalion.

Also it's good to know gws complete inability to balance seraphon continues. Just remove engine of gods and the teleport.

[Ravinsild]

I changed my list up to: 

1 Megaboss on Foot

1 Warchanter 

20 Ardboys with a mixed array, 2 hand, dual wielding 

3 Gore Gruntas with pig iron Choppas

3 Gore Gruntas with pig iron Choppas 

5 Brutes with Boss Klaw, Gore-Choppa and dual wielding. 

[Izikail]

12 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I changed my list up to: 

1 Megaboss on Foot

1 Warchanter 

20 Ardboys with a mixed array, 2 hand, dual wielding 

3 Gore Gruntas with pig iron Choppas

3 Gore Gruntas with pig iron Choppas 

5 Brutes with Boss Klaw, Gore-Choppa and dual wielding. 

Nice. The one thing i may change (although it looks good) is split the ardboys unit gives you more flexability with tieing up and objectives if you need to hold a unit back and ptotects you from battleshock against the first turn snipings

[Malakithe]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

No. The only way a unit can be in two battalions is if the battalion is part of a mega battalion.

Also it's good to know gws complete inability to balance seraphon continues. Just remove engine of gods and the teleport.

Im hearing Kroak can fire off his spells 3 times a turn now due to core rules. Or insta slap down blastidons

[Rock Lobster]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im hearing Kroak can fire off his spells 3 times a turn now due to core rules. Or insta slap down blastidons

Alas it is true, my friends seraphon list for the upcoming tournament is disgusting. 

Slann general (all summon focused) with 2 engines of the gods for continual summoning - typically 2-3 bastilladon per game and 3-4 razordon units from the engines.

kroak is a spell beast, on bale wind with cogs, geminids and portal supported by 2 astrolith bearers. He uses portal and the extra 22” range from astrolith a and balewind to hit the entire army for d3 mortal wounds per unit and cast 3 times - averaging 6 mortal wounds on each unit.

then he has other endless spells like geminids his hands through to attack.

 

filth.

[Gwendar]

6 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Alas it is true, my friends seraphon list for the upcoming tournament is disgusting. 

Slann general (all summon focused) with 2 engines of the gods for continual summoning - typically 2-3 bastilladon per game and 3-4 razordon units from the engines.

kroak is a spell beast, on bale wind with cogs, geminids and portal supported by 2 astrolith bearers. He uses portal and the extra 22” range from astrolith a and balewind to hit the entire army for d3 mortal wounds per unit and cast 3 times - averaging 6 mortal wounds on each unit.

then he has other endless spells like geminids his hands through to attack.

 

filth.

I have a feeling our local Seraphon players will be doing the same type of thing and will end up playing themselves since no one will find that enjoyable to play against. But hey, at least you can attack the balewind wizard now in CC. 

[Richelieu]

6 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Alas it is true, my friends seraphon list for the upcoming tournament is disgusting. 

Slann general (all summon focused) with 2 engines of the gods for continual summoning - typically 2-3 bastilladon per game and 3-4 razordon units from the engines.

kroak is a spell beast, on bale wind with cogs, geminids and portal supported by 2 astrolith bearers. He uses portal and the extra 22” range from astrolith a and balewind to hit the entire army for d3 mortal wounds per unit and cast 3 times - averaging 6 mortal wounds on each unit.

then he has other endless spells like geminids his hands through to attack.

 

filth.

I have played kroaknado seraphon twice now in the last week.  I won both times because I played better than my opponent.  I already believe that Ironjawz are going to be stronger than most armies against seraphon because they can smash and bash through the skink or saurus screens and get into range of the high value targets like kroak, slann, engine and astrolith.

[Rock Lobster]

17 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

I have played kroaknado seraphon twice now in the last week.  I won both times because I played better than my opponent.  I already believe that Ironjawz are going to be stronger than most armies against seraphon because they can smash and bash through the skink or saurus screens and get into range of the high value targets like kroak, slann, engine and astrolith.

Yeah I hadn’t thought of that, smashing and bashing is a pain for those skinks. You really need a double turn though as the screen still sorts you for a turn. You can also only survive 1 turn of magic realistically. With the 3 spells that hit everything for d3 wounds by the end of turn 2 all of my units will have lost 10-14 mortal wounds essentially killing all units and leaving a couple on deaths door.

the spell mirror or one that reduces wounds is a must.

[Malakree]

18 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Yeah I hadn’t thought of that, smashing and bashing is a pain for those skinks. You really need a double turn though as the screen still sorts you for a turn. You can also only survive 1 turn of magic realistically. With the 3 spells that hit everything for d3 wounds by the end of turn 2 all of my units will have lost 10-14 mortal wounds essentially killing all units and leaving a couple on deaths door.

the spell mirror or one that reduces wounds is a must.

I think it's got to be the Hysh reduce spell damage by d3 because the sheer quantity of rolls against the spell mirror is going to drop it. 

With Kroak doing d3 multiple times d3-d3 is going to be much more preferable. Additional a malevolent maelstrom might be something to try against him so that you can get as many unbinds as possible.

Blade of Secrets could be a hilarious idea but it requires you get into combat with him and I don't think we have any small base flying heroes do we?

As an extra question, could a slann on a balewind teleport using their stupid teleport stuff? Reading through the rules that doesn't seem to be stopped in anyway. Man I hate that allegiance teleport so badly, it's such a stupid mechanic that should only be usable on skink or saurus units without the Hero or Monster keywords.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Malakree

[tolstedt]

Pick my list for today:

Weirdfist
Ironfist + rock lobbas (I take three, the 1 in 4 units allies thing is dumb and restrictive)
Ardfist

[Richelieu]

35 minutes ago, Malakree said:

As an extra question, could a slann on a balewind teleport using their stupid teleport stuff? Reading through the rules that doesn't seem to be stopped in anyway. Man I hate that allegiance teleport so badly, it's such a stupid mechanic that should only be usable on skink or saurus units without the Hero or Monster keywords.

It takes some very close reading, but no, they are not able to.  The key phrase on the balewind scroll is that "as long as it remains on the battlefield" they are considered one model.  When you teleport you leave the battlefield and so would no longer be considered one model and the BW would not come with the Slann.

[Krallkontir]

I have a tournament coming up in mid August and am debating a few different lists. I would appreciate some comments and criticism on the following:

List 1

Mawcrusha w/ Ironclad

Troggoth Hag

2 x Warchanter

3 x 5 Brutes

2 x 3 Goregruntas

Ironfist Battalion

Malevolent Maelstrom

List 2

Gordrakk

Megaboss

Moonclan Grot Shaman

2 x Warchanter

3 x 5 Brutes

2 x 3 Goregruntas

Ironfist Battalion

Gemenids

List 3

Mawcrusha w/ Ironclad

Megaboss

Warchanter

2 x Moonclan Grot Shaman

3 x 5 Brutes

2 x 3 Goregruntas

Ironfist and Bloodtooth Battailons

60pts endless spells

In terms of artifacts I am thinking either Ulgu for Miasmatic Blade, Sword of Judgement and Spellmirror or Betrayer's Crown or Hysh for Brooch, Lens of Refraction and Mirrored Cuirass.

Thanks.

 

 

[Izikail]

My attempt at weirdfisting

MBMK:sword of judgment

Weirdnob: spellmirror

Warchanter

Warchanter

 

10 Ardboys

10 ardboys

5 brutes

5 brutes

3gore grunters

 

Rock lobber

Rock lobber

 

Weirdfist

 

Balewind

 

I have 40 pts left, im thinking the dispell ball endless spell

Main plan is first turn walk forward at a medioca pace with gg pinning down any ranged super threats, second turn balewind up and destroy (hopefully). The mk and warchanters buff up to try and eliminate any bloated threats or enemy big guys. The ardboys give bodies for the nobs casting buff and help cover holes in my deployment so the nob dosnt get rearcharged from a sneaky deployment.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Izikail
Spelling

[Malakree]

Maybe try grabbing a prismatic wall because Foot of Gork doesn't actually require line of sight. Help protect you from any nasty ranged threats. 

I wouldn't go for the dispell ball, to much change of it backfiring on you. Cogs is great though, it gives early movement and then swaps into an extra spell cast for the shaman.

Equally the Umbral Portal is pretty funny, you can use it as the origin for your cast meaning that a well placed portal will let you abuse Greenpuke hard. Remember that it is also affected by the Weirdfist and gets the 6" from the Balewind. You would be averaging 18"+2d6" range with d3+2 mortal wounds from the weirdfist, pretty fricking vicious. With balewind or cogs you could cast both easily, with both you could do spell portal+Foot+puke from inside the enemies line.

[broche]

I think in a weirdfist you should play at least 2 shaman (1 for the weirdfist and the other for versatility)

I don't have Malign sorcery boxe yet, but from what i saw Cog and palissade seem like good spell. Also the damage spell  could be good to complement the fist.

You could either go with Fugoid (and make him your general) for extra mobility (and combo with Maw Krusha), a moonclan grot shaman (curse of bad moon is not bad, maybe with portal) or an extra Weirnob (more expensive, but bonus to cast and dispel is good in magic duel).

I don't think the 2 warchanter are that much needed.