Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[Cookiez]

Had another great game today, against Aetherstrike batallion SCE with the best SCE player in the country and my very good gaming buddy. We were playing Starstrike. With 2 relictors in his list I decided to give up defensive set up in the corner in favour of more agressive one. He started and was forced to shoot the shield eels - I lost 5 from the big unit but passed the battleshock which was lucky and much needed in the future. In my turn I've teleported Eidolon, gave him mystic shield and dropped the 3x -1 to hit on the crucial units, making the Longstrikes unable to shoot mortal wounds, while the Venator sniped the first Relictor. Made a mistake here - I've put the Eidolon near the ship, not on the ship to give him cover in the next rounds, but, fortunately, it wasn't THAT crucial.  After that I've rushed to his lines and hoped for the good rolloff... The more lucky moment was the comet landing literally on the shipwreck, near my 3 shield eels. He won the initiative (rolled 2, I rolled 1, yeah...) and I was certain it's over and even wanted to start again with his second list but I was so wrong. The Eidolon was the boss. Tanked all the firepower of the best shooting non KO list in the game, some charges, more shooting from the batallion and stayed alive on 1 wound. In my round I've dropped 3x -1 to hit again and healed for 4, but failed the mystic shield on him. Morrsarr destroyed the big 12 models Longstrikes unit and after that I was just chasing his units and killing one after another. After turn 3 fights he'd only one Relictor and a unit of Liberators. 

So, some thoughts. The first game, which was won only because of the Eidolon, the first time I thought i spent those 440 points for a reason. He was killing in the shooting phases, healing every turn, gave crucial -1 to hit and tanked like a real boss. This game really gave me some hope, as I was sure I had to remove this outstanding model from my list. The key was playing him really aggressively and even with the mistake of not teleporting him into the cover, he won me this game. 

Regarding Morrsarr. I can't think of a competitive list without a unit of minimum 6 models. End of topic. Only thing you need to be sure is that they charge every combat but with their power level it's easy. In this game I didn't even use my 30 Thralls - the terrain was dense, and I kinda gathered in the middle between my wrecks, blocking the path. Lack of fly and 6" move is hard to bypass in an army with 12" and 14".

One more thought, regarding the scenarios. Because of the high movement characteristics, we are favoured in those with 4+ objectives - Schorched Earth, Battle for the Pass and Total Conquest. Duality can be favourable because of the ships, but it's luck dependent. 

After the game my friend said he made some mistake here and there because he doesn't like the Idoneth and didn't bother reading the rules before the match, but I, personally, don't think he could have done so much more, to pull this off, as in the end I was left with 5 Morrsarr, 3 Ishlaen, 30 Thralls, Venator and the King with Tidecaster. Because of this game I leave testing Volturnos with Royal Council for the future, but I have some ideas going on...

Cheers!  

EDIT: Dong, forgot I wanted to post some SCE matchup thoughts. I think the Idoneth are NOT favoured against a non Aetherstrike list. We have no tools to deal with the Fulminators, Stardrake, Heraldors are going to be particularly painful... The only viable strategy, as far as I can see now, before more games, will be abusing high movement and -1 to hit to survive long enough to make the speed count,

[BillyOcean]

7 minutes ago, Cookiez said:

I've put the Eidolon near the ship, not on the ship to give him cover

So his 100mm base fits fully within the shipwreck? That is good to hear! I had been wondering which of our units would be able to sit in the wreck for cover, and assumed probably only the king or 3 eels (or any of the infantry characters) would be possible. 

[mmimzie]

31 minutes ago, Cookiez said:

Had another great game today, against Aetherstrike batallion SCE with the best SCE player in the country and my very good gaming buddy. We were playing Starstrike. With 2 relictors in his list I decided to give up defensive set up in the corner in favour of more agressive one. He started and was forced to shoot the shield eels - I lost 5 from the big unit but passed the battleshock which was lucky and much needed in the future. In my turn I've teleported Eidolon, gave him mystic shield and dropped the 3x -1 to hit on the crucial units, making the Longstrikes unable to shoot mortal wounds, while the Venator sniped the first Relictor. Made a mistake here - I've put the Eidolon near the ship, not on the ship to give him cover in the next rounds, but, fortunately, it wasn't THAT crucial.  After that I've rushed to his lines and hoped for the good rolloff... The more lucky moment was the comet landing literally on the shipwreck, near my 3 shield eels. He won the initiative (rolled 2, I rolled 1, yeah...) and I was certain it's over and even wanted to start again with his second list but I was so wrong. The Eidolon was the boss. Tanked all the firepower of the best shooting non KO list in the game, some charges, more shooting from the batallion and stayed alive on 1 wound. In my round I've dropped 3x -1 to hit again and healed for 4, but failed the mystic shield on him. Morrsarr destroyed the big 12 models Longstrikes unit and after that I was just chasing his units and killing one after another. After turn 3 fights he'd only one Relictor and a unit of Liberators. 

So, some thoughts. The first game, which was won only because of the Eidolon, the first time I thought i spent those 440 points for a reason. He was killing in the shooting phases, healing every turn, gave crucial -1 to hit and tanked like a real boss. This game really gave me some hope, as I was sure I had to remove this outstanding model from my list. The key was playing him really aggressively and even with the mistake of not teleporting him into the cover, he won me this game. 

Regarding Morrsarr. I can't think of a competitive list without a unit of minimum 6 models. End of topic. Only thing you need to be sure is that they charge every combat but with their power level it's easy. In this game I didn't even use my 30 Thralls - the terrain was dense, and I kinda gathered in the middle between my wrecks, blocking the path. Lack of fly and 6" move is hard to bypass in an army with 12" and 14".

One more thought, regarding the scenarios. Because of the high movement characteristics, we are favoured in those with 4+ objectives - Schorched Earth, Battle for the Pass and Total Conquest. Duality can be favourable because of the ships, but it's luck dependent. 

After the game my friend said he made some mistake here and there because he doesn't like the Idoneth and didn't bother reading the rules before the match, but I, personally, don't think he could have done so much more, to pull this off, as in the end I was left with 5 Morrsarr, 3 Ishlaen, 30 Thralls, Venator and the King with Tidecaster. Because of this game I leave testing Volturnos with Royal Council for the future, but I have some ideas going on...

Cheers!  

EDIT: Dong, forgot I wanted to post some SCE matchup thoughts. I think the Idoneth are NOT favoured against a non Aetherstrike list. We have no tools to deal with the Fulminators, Stardrake, Heraldors are going to be particularly painful... The only viable strategy, as far as I can see now, before more games, will be abusing high movement and -1 to hit to survive long enough to make the speed count,

This sounds alot like my test games with my eel list.  Glad the aspect of the sea worked out well for you, as that's the model that's hardest to really get your mind around just looking at it. heck even playing it it's hard to really invision how it is helping your army. FOr the moral test you passed with the eels, did the eidolan have anything to do with that??

One thing, and i'm not super sure how exactly what spell you took, but i feel like i'd give the aspect abyssal darkness maybe??? he benefits from it so he can just bring his own cover, instead of mystic shield which is about the same thing. So than if he can hand out with the eels and give every one cover, or your mystic shield is free to buff a unit like the shield eels or morrsar guard.  In either of your two games did the thralls work out??? I just feel they are so darn clunk to use for what they do. 

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, Cookiez said:

EDIT: Dong, forgot I wanted to post some SCE matchup thoughts. I think the Idoneth are NOT favoured against a non Aetherstrike list. We have no tools to deal with the Fulminators, Stardrake, Heraldors are going to be particularly painful... The only viable strategy, as far as I can see now, before more games, will be abusing high movement and -1 to hit to survive long enough to make the speed count,

I think with Fulminators you just have to make sure to charge them with the eels, if you get 6 eels in there they should be able to take a big chunk out of fulminators between the spears and MW blast(rough math says 10-12 wounds, not counting the mount attacks).  And for stardrake i think you just tie him up with eels or the Eidolonn, it will just end up being a stalemate, you could also simply ignore him and run around killing everything else.  With our movement it will be hard for the drake to really keep up.

I havent even seen a Heraldor fielded so no idea on how to deal with them.

34 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

One thing, and i'm not super sure how exactly what spell you took, but i feel like i'd give the aspect abyssal darkness maybe??? he benefits from it so he can just bring his own cover, instead of mystic shield which is about the same thing. So than if he can hand out with the eels and give every one cover, or your mystic shield is free to buff a unit like the shield eels or morrsar guard.  In either of your two games did the thralls work out??? I just feel they are so darn clunk to use for what they do. 

I hadnt thought of this, definitely need to try it in my next game.  I used Vorpal Maelstrom which was nice but the cover would have saved my Ishlaen for another round at least.

[Austin]

5 hours ago, To1v1 said:

Still mucking about with lists! Any input?

 

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin

Leaders
Waywatcher (100)
- Allies
Waywatcher (100)
- Allies
Waywatcher (100)
- Allies
Vulturnos, High King of the Deep (280)
- General
Isharann Soulrender (100)

Battleline
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
30 x Namarti Thralls (360)

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (280)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 300 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

What are the Waywatchers doing in the list? I can't figure out what role you see for them.  I think no matter what you should pull one WW and take a Tidecaster.  With the extra 20 points you have why not replace one Ishlaen unit with Morrsarr? I say that because the list seems light on damage.  The Leviadon is good for cover and general tankiness, as well as the solid (but not crazy) damage, but the Allopexes are not doing enough damage (and I am in a distinct minority of thinking they are useful at all FYI) to make up for the overall lack of punch.

[Drofnum]

How are you guys planning on dealing with heroes on a balewind?  I was thinking about Tzeentch and Kroaknado today and i'm not sure how I can stop them with my planned list as it has almost no shooting, spells may work but they are hard to rely on with how easily those lists can dispel.

[mmimzie]

17 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

How are you guys planning on dealing with heroes on a balewind?  I was thinking about Tzeentch and Kroaknado today and i'm not sure how I can stop them with my planned list as it has almost no shooting, spells may work but they are hard to rely on with how easily those lists can dispel.

Many tournaments ban them, and events that don't ban them make it so they can't be placed on objectives.  Other than that, maybe have a knight venator snipe who ever is on top, potentialy unbind the spell, or just close my eyes and pretend that the table has some weird random damage mechanic that only effects my models :P. 

[Drofnum]

58 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Many tournaments ban them, and events that don't ban them make it so they can't be placed on objectives.  Other than that, maybe have a knight venator snipe who ever is on top, potentialy unbind the spell, or just close my eyes and pretend that the table has some weird random damage mechanic that only effects my models :P. 

I havent run in to anywhere that bans them and them being on objectives isnt really the problem, the problem is the caster on top wrecking your army.  I've only really played against Kroak up there but a Venator isnt terribly reliable to snipe him off it and left alone he can eventually destroy your army.  I suppose it would just be a matter of killing everything else and winning on points?  I may have to try a test game, we have a guy here that plays it.

[Kugane]

I think 2 Fulminators with a Lord Relictor would do quite well screening in this army. Fulminators can suck up points like a boss, and with a relictor healing them, they can be extremely potent.

[Tizianolol]

@Sactownbri

about fuethan the only think I don't like is 4 turn not retreat and charge. I know, with many of ID mounts I can love run and charge too, but in my mind I wanna play my akelian King with lance , and turn 4 retreat and charge with him can be a win condition, I can retreat him for combat behind enemy line( I can fly) and in the same turn charge for objective ( immagine 10 skinks that protect one objective, with that move I can take that objective in one go. My opponent prob didn't expect that:)

dont forget your morrsarr too, they got a buff after charge. If can't kill your unit you charged turn 3 and you got priority turn 4, you can retreat them and charge again same unit, for an impressive amount of damage! Instead of staying in combat without buffs

 

[BillyOcean]

13 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

about fuethan the only think I don't like is 4 turn not retreat and charge.

Totally agree. When I read the tides table, the turn 4 retreat and charge was the thing I most excited about. Allows extra damage from Morsarr, or just repositioning troops into other combats where more points are available. So while Fuethan's other bonuses are great, I probably won't play it. I'll likely stick to Ionrach to start, as I want to test AoSea and when I pay 440pts for a wizard, I want to do everything I can to ensure a reliable 2 spells/turn from him.

[MacDuff]

Not to derail this tactical discussion, but I love the potential visual spectacle that the ID bring to the tabletop. I've been eying a lot of very colorful and unique aquarium decorations on Amazon that are VERY inexpensive. I imagine that as the tides advance the Deepkin bring into being these terrain pieces in their wake. Soon, great swaths of their board, along with the boat & fishy shoals, arise behind their advancing lines. As a Pisces, this is beyond cool to me.

[Rou Dantes]

Does anyone have any idea of how soon we should expect to see a Start Collection box for the Deepkin? 

[mmimzie]

42 minutes ago, Rou Dantes said:

Does anyone have any idea of how soon we should expect to see a Start Collection box for the Deepkin? 

Probably not till some time next year. All the models are new, and they'll sell well on being new. No need to get a start collecting going any time soon. However, like all the other new releases odds are we will get one of those big battalion boxes in december Followed a few months after with a start collecting if anything like KO. 

 

1 hour ago, MacDuff said:

Not to derail this tactical discussion, but I love the potential visual spectacle that the ID bring to the tabletop. I've been eying a lot of very colorful and unique aquarium decorations on Amazon that are VERY inexpensive. I imagine that as the tides advance the Deepkin bring into being these terrain pieces in their wake. Soon, great swaths of their board, along with the boat & fishy shoals, arise behind their advancing lines. As a Pisces, this is beyond cool to me.

I definitly agree and it is let's talk ID not just let's talk tactics so do you. I know for my ID i want to make them quiet color full themselves. instead of them all ahving matching eels, i'd like to do different colors and patterns on my eels, and go for something rather bright and vibrant. 

[MacDuff]

Check out the Amazon jellyfish - they look great under black light! I'm temped to get one and flip it on during battles, to make the Deepkin mist feel real. And maybe dab black light paint on my eels, too (when they get here).

[valenswift]

11 hours ago, Cookiez said:

Had another great game today, against Aetherstrike batallion SCE with the best SCE player in the country and my very good gaming buddy. We were playing Starstrike. With 2 relictors in his list I decided to give up defensive set up in the corner in favour of more agressive one. He started and was forced to shoot the shield eels - I lost 5 from the big unit but passed the battleshock which was lucky and much needed in the future. In my turn I've teleported Eidolon, gave him mystic shield and dropped the 3x -1 to hit on the crucial units, making the Longstrikes unable to shoot mortal wounds, while the Venator sniped the first Relictor. Made a mistake here - I've put the Eidolon near the ship, not on the ship to give him cover in the next rounds, but, fortunately, it wasn't THAT crucial.  After that I've rushed to his lines and hoped for the good rolloff... The more lucky moment was the comet landing literally on the shipwreck, near my 3 shield eels. He won the initiative (rolled 2, I rolled 1, yeah...) and I was certain it's over and even wanted to start again with his second list but I was so wrong. The Eidolon was the boss. Tanked all the firepower of the best shooting non KO list in the game, some charges, more shooting from the batallion and stayed alive on 1 wound. In my round I've dropped 3x -1 to hit again and healed for 4, but failed the mystic shield on him. Morrsarr destroyed the big 12 models Longstrikes unit and after that I was just chasing his units and killing one after another. After turn 3 fights he'd only one Relictor and a unit of Liberators. 

So, some thoughts. The first game, which was won only because of the Eidolon, the first time I thought i spent those 440 points for a reason. He was killing in the shooting phases, healing every turn, gave crucial -1 to hit and tanked like a real boss. This game really gave me some hope, as I was sure I had to remove this outstanding model from my list. The key was playing him really aggressively and even with the mistake of not teleporting him into the cover, he won me this game. 

Regarding Morrsarr. I can't think of a competitive list without a unit of minimum 6 models. End of topic. Only thing you need to be sure is that they charge every combat but with their power level it's easy. In this game I didn't even use my 30 Thralls - the terrain was dense, and I kinda gathered in the middle between my wrecks, blocking the path. Lack of fly and 6" move is hard to bypass in an army with 12" and 14".

One more thought, regarding the scenarios. Because of the high movement characteristics, we are favoured in those with 4+ objectives - Schorched Earth, Battle for the Pass and Total Conquest. Duality can be favourable because of the ships, but it's luck dependent. 

After the game my friend said he made some mistake here and there because he doesn't like the Idoneth and didn't bother reading the rules before the match, but I, personally, don't think he could have done so much more, to pull this off, as in the end I was left with 5 Morrsarr, 3 Ishlaen, 30 Thralls, Venator and the King with Tidecaster. Because of this game I leave testing Volturnos with Royal Council for the future, but I have some ideas going on...

Cheers!  

EDIT: Dong, forgot I wanted to post some SCE matchup thoughts. I think the Idoneth are NOT favoured against a non Aetherstrike list. We have no tools to deal with the Fulminators, Stardrake, Heraldors are going to be particularly painful... The only viable strategy, as far as I can see now, before more games, will be abusing high movement and -1 to hit to survive long enough to make the speed count,

I also play SCE would you mind telling me your opponents list?

[Cookiez]

12 minutes ago, valenswift said:

I also play SCE would you mind telling me your opponents list?

2x Relictor, Venator, Azyros, Gryph hound, 12 Longstrikes, 3 Hurricane Crossbows, 2x5 Judicators, Liberators, 2x3 Aetherwings. Should be it.

[mmimzie]

So looking at it some more. I think the aspects are pretty alright for what they do, and are rather list dependent. 

First to repeat myself alittle on the aspect of the sea. I think despite the temptation to bring a damage spell like vorpal malestorm, it seems wise to just rock abyssal darkness on your aspect of the sea. If give you abit of a mini turtle It's actualy a lot of what the turtle can do??  Damage wise with ritual it does similar out put that of the turtle, and maybe alittle less. While with abyssal darkness the edolan can provide the turtle buff, and also cover himself. From there you are ~60pts more to also pump out either an arcane missle/mystic shield i've seen armies pay more for similar, but more realisticly you can use the more powerful -1 to hit/bravery for d6 units. Which is a decently strong debuff. Lastly, for that 60pts over the turtle you get a bravery aura. With these 3 defensive syngery abilities it seem like a decent center piece for 2k pts.  As we've all poked at back and forth one might consider running a pearl on the model for protection against spells.  I'm thinking if you run one of these you either want lots of ishlaen to benefit from his defenses, or potentialy morrsarr in a nautilar army with an outside caster providing that barrier spell to a big morrsarr death start. Last might also be a good friend to those thrall regeneration list. If you want to forgo the pearl and maybe abit wishful that your aspect might survive sands of infinity could let you keep cover up for 2 turns and you can squeeze out more damage, or better yet stack -2 to hit/bravery.  I'm more fond of the conservative route. 

Then we have the aspect of the storm who i think wants to be in a some kind of morrsarr alpha list. With a reroll 1's to wound aura it's one of our few offense boosting options. His damage is no where near stellar and anyone telling you otherwise needs to go buy a calculator. This in dhom-hain where you can get rerolls for charging so you dcould skirt the cost of a king, and maybe make the aspect of the storm your general for a few more wounds. This guy probably won't be taking his pearl, as he's no wizard so he only gets the 6+ save. Lliandra's Last Lament could be Vital since you are likely lacking the sea aspects bravery buffs, or cloud of mid night could protect you going into turn 3 or so you can servive through a danger double turn to get some retreat and charge healing. 

I think what definitly dampens the light we shed on these aspects is units like mortahi, who is a very stand out awesome model. She's definitly very durable, and  trans forms from a damaging long range caster form into a tanky weaker melee unit (her melee in about what the aspect of the storm does on the charge). Morathi is more a stand alone unit that doesn't nessarily require an army to be built around her like the two aspect sort of require to be worth thier pts.  
 

@Cookiez as for your stardrake issue a think a 12 man morrsar guard could scare a stardrake, doing an average of something like 10 mortal wounds at the top of the phase.  It's not 1 to 1 cost effective, but killing the stardrake in one swift blow is a pretty powerful move. Plus that 12 man unit can be buffed with mystic shield and the barrier spell to keep it relatively safe at a 2+ in cover reduced rend for turn 1. 

[Rou Dantes]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Probably not till some time next year. All the models are new, and they'll sell well on being new. No need to get a start collecting going any time soon. However, like all the other new releases odds are we will get one of those big battalion boxes in december Followed a few months after with a start collecting if anything like KO. 

Oh wow, did it really take that long before KO got their Battleforce and Start Collecting boxes?

[mmimzie]

5 minutes ago, Rou Dantes said:

Oh wow, did it really take that long before KO got their Battleforce and Start Collecting boxes?

KO came out in April just like ID

Skyfleet battle force was December. 

 

KO  star collecting was like Feb

 

So just about a whole year for a start collecting.

 

Way I see it the battle forces are 5o celebrate new and popular forces. While the start collecting boxes come out later to really hook new folks into the army. 

 

As the army is new and fresh already and it can well about as well with the new shinny spell as it will later with a lower price tag. I'd guess it would make bad business sense to do a start collecting now. It wouldn't even be a good community move because every time a new release comes out everyone would ignore it and a wait a month or two for the start collecting if it came out near the time of the army release. 

 

[To1v1]

11 hours ago, Caladancid said:

17 hours ago, To1v1 said:

 

What are the Waywatchers doing in the list?

I must confess, I'm new to aos...are waywatchers good for sniping support pieces? And tidecasters are 100, so it would be a straight swap but I see what you're saying. I'll look into putting more punch in the army. Thanks for the response though, I appreciate it.

[Trayanee]

33 minutes ago, Rou Dantes said:

Oh wow, did it really take that long before KO got their Battleforce and Start Collecting boxes?

Its not really that long to be fair. Tzeentch arcanites for example were released 4 months earlier than KO and got a battleforce at the same time and still dont have a start collecting.

[Harioch]

Still not knowing which way to go with these Idoneth for first buy, so I'm leaning toward a fast alpha strike fuethan list:

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Fuethan

Leaders
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- General
- Trait: Born From Agony 
- Artefact: Arcane Pearl 
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Isharann Soulscryer (100)

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Units
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)

Total: 960 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 66
 

Strategy is obviously to use Tidecaster Aethersea ability combine with Fuethan Enclave to plan on a turn 1 charge with Guards (using Soulscryer +3 charge) and teleport the 2 Reavers near objectives. I like them because they got a good move speed.

Also I don't know if it's possible but can I run after they came on board with the Soulscryer teleport ability ? Because I found it pretty handy with Fuethan and Tidecaster.

I see with that kind of list that I will struggle with battleplan like Knive to the Heart and alike, and also that my Tidecaster is slowing down the list, but I can't let it go as my general because he brings the Aethersea ability needed for charging and the Reavers as battleline. So I don't know which trait to give him. Besides I don't know if I should bring Morrsarr multiple times, pack them up, or even do a 6 Morrsarr 3 Ishlaen. Should I drop a unit to take another hero ? Thralls are good but I think they don't fit in this kind of list ? I don't know...

What do you guys think about this list and what should I change ?  Oh also...what is the "drop" I spot on lists discussions ? Don't know what it means  

[Tizianolol]

@BillyOcean

about AotS . Many people think he is not so good, two tides cost 200 and they got good spell from lore (-1 to hit and another -1 from lore)

i think aspect is very good on paper . He is good in combat he got sustain with a spell that can heal d3 and his ability to heal another d3. And if you got ritual you heal another wound. I think it's something that opponent have to consider !!

[march10k]

I'm loving the forgotten nightmares rule with Ishaelans in front of a turtle with mystic shield.  Can't touch me till I'm good and ready to charge!  I'm thinking:

Dhom Hain

Volt, wizard, priest (480)

Akhelian Battalion (100)

Turtle (380)

Shark (140)

2x6 Ishaelan Guard (560)

6 Morrsarr (320)

Very low model count at 23, but very fast, pretty much immune to shooting, and has enough hammer to do what's needed.