Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Changehost and Seraphons will eat Deepkin alive unfortunately, also match up against Daughters of Khaine also looks quite bad. 

Daughters honestly feel like one of the easier match ups?? You strike first every game and remove at least 600+ pts off the opponents side before they get a turn, and van lock a good bulk of thier units in combat with 2+ ishlaen. Of what I played against them my opponents have had no witches/sisters left and usually just had morathi and shrines trying to figure out what on earth to do. 

 

I think thralls might have a tough time against DoK. The alpha isn't as potent, and you can lose whole blocks or more worth of thralls from witch units before you can start regenerating.  

[Luke1705]

You know what I really like about the eels? Volturnos giving them 3 extra attacks per eel on turn 3.

And doing this to 3 squads.

That’s a lot of attacks

[DantePQ]

47 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Daughters honestly feel like one of the easier match ups?? You strike first every game and remove at least 600+ pts off the opponents side before they get a turn, and van lock a good bulk of thier units in combat with 2+ ishlaen. Of what I played against them my opponents have had no witches/sisters left and usually just had morathi and shrines trying to figure out what on earth to do. 

 

I think thralls might have a tough time against DoK. The alpha isn't as potent, and you can lose whole blocks or more worth of thralls from witch units before you can start regenerating.  

 If  your opponent let you get a first turn and then got charged turn 1 then he was just playing very badly. DoK has viable Battalions so they should get first turn, they might easily alpha strike Morathi into whatever hammer you got and basically tarpit whole army or they might tarpit anything with units that ha3+-4+ Bucklers,save,5++ FF save and maybe re rolls and/or Martyr's Sacrifice. So how could you kill 700pts in turn 1 charge ? Only if your opponent played very poorly, skilled player won't let you charge anything important turn 1. Any turn 1 charge with hammer units isnt viable tactic against majority of armies and against skilled player. And Deepkin aren't exception. 

DoK has every tool that can hurt Deepkin many attacks, mortal or high rend wounds, a lot of mobility etc. 

DoK is hard to master so any game is a challenge and there are no easy match ups but Deepkin match up is favorable for sure. 

I agree with @Richelieu Seraphons will be even if you bring a lot of Thralls, but any Eels/character heavy Deepkin build will be eaten alive by combination of magic, teleports(so you got to leave chunk of your army at objectives) and Bastiladon tarpit ability. Seraphon wilk start kill your Heroes few eels to trigger those low bravery battleshock and it's over, as Deepkin won't have tools to kill Engine. Against Thrall spam its different game. 

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

 If  your opponent let you get a first turn and then got charged turn 1 then he was just playing very badly. DoK has viable Battalions so they should get first turn, they might easily alpha strike Morathi into whatever hammer you got and basically tarpit whole army or they might tarpit anything with units that ha3+-4+ Bucklers,save,5++ FF save and maybe re rolls and/or Martyr's Sacrifice. So how could you kill 700pts in turn 1 charge ? Only if your opponent played very poorly, skilled player won't let you charge anything important turn 1. Any turn 1 charge with hammer units isnt viable tactic against majority of armies and against skilled player. And Deepkin aren't exception. 

DoK has every tool that can hurt Deepkin many attacks, mortal or high rend wounds, a lot of mobility etc. 

DoK is hard to master so any game is a challenge and there are no easy match ups but Deepkin match up is favorable for sure. 

I agree with @Richelieu Seraphons will be even if you bring a lot of Thralls, but any Eels/character heavy Deepkin build will be eaten alive by combination of magic, teleports(so you got to leave chunk of your army at objectives) and Bastiladon tarpit ability. Seraphon wilk start kill your Heroes few eels to trigger those low bravery battleshock and it's over, as Deepkin won't have tools to kill Engine. Against Thrall spam its different game. 

If you say so man. 

I don't know how morathi turn one charges because i don't play DoK, and from what i understand the list i've seen on the DoK forums dont seem to be going out of thier way to do that. So either i missed a thing (completely possible) <.< or your DoK is completely altering it's list to deal with deepkin <.<.  Further more when we look at least <.< we look at your own list posted to the DoK thread, i think tuesday??? you had swapped out from buckler witches to knife witches <.< which are a specifically easier to kill unit. While, also your list doesn't have a battalion. While my list runs the royal court and could likely out drop the list you've shown. So, the choice would be in my court. 

As for seraphon i only see that at local events and only then they are abit rare.  I'm not gonna flip out if what ever list i run is has a bad match up against brettonians for instance <.<...

 

[DantePQ]

I am not taking about my list but about possible problems that DoK could cause. 

If any player let's you charge first turn into 700pts worth of models it's very poor play and if he doesn't tarpit your forces with Morathi it's another poor play. 

Also comparing Seraphon who are very popular and comeptitive army in AoS meta to Bretonnia is just ignorant as I am not taking about your meta but how Deepkin fare against top armies in AoS meta. 

[Richelieu]

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

You strike first every game and remove at least 600+ pts off the opponents side before they get a turn

What are you getting into the enemy to remove 600+ points turn 1?  

[mmimzie]

11 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

What are you getting into the enemy to remove 600+ points turn 1?  

A unit of 9 morrsarr, ishlaen, and a king.   Using royal court and dryer to turn 1 charge, and the large eels bases to connect primary target to the unit. 

 

They cross the table in a turn <. < you really arnt hiding, your more just sacrificing stuff in front at best, and if you screen to much you can just end up screwed by the anti fly ritual and am ishlaen wall in your face. 

 

As Dante says the best bet is probably taking first turn so you have more room. 

Also on seraphon at tournaments. I don't know i mostly see top 10 list but i don't see seraphon popping up all over the place?? 

[Richelieu]

@mmimzie even if you do take out 600+ points turn one with that strategy (which I am doubtful of).  Every unit that far up the board will be annihilated by a counterattack.  9 Morrsarr is 480 points and your are guaranteed to lose every one of them.

[DantePQ]

Yep, Daughters of Khaine are huge on counterattack - Morathi, Cauldron, 10-20 witches are enought to kill all those points-  so  even if you do so (and I also doubt as only 100% amateur would allow such move) next turn your 1k is dead and gone and you're left with nothing that can win against DoK. 

Problem with Deepkin against DoK is that DoK has a lot of tools that work especially great against Deepkin, sure it takes experience and skill to execute those tool (but that's the case with DoK - it doesn't have easy match ups but can go and compete with any army), Daughters have awesome options to tarpit anything ID can throw at them, they will own Deepkin in Duality big time, they can harrass their objective with Khinerai so ID must split force (especially difficult with more elite versions of ID armies), Witches are great against Thralls and Deepkin has almost zero tools to snipe out heroes, small units, also DoK are very mobile (Still ID are better at this but they won't get as much advantage ).

I still think that Bromdar or Thrall-Regneration lists are the only truly top competitve lists ID can build just because Thralls are awesome for their points, also they have the best shot at Changehost with SoulScryer deepstrike + bonus charge trick coupled with Tidecaster reverse of Tides so you attacks first - you just need to go for a throat against Changehost especially with Bromdar. That's why I like my list (Bromdar - Volturnos - quite good against Changehost, surely one of the best leaders you can get vs DoT, 2x30 Thralls,10 Reavers 2xTidecaster, SoulScrye ,2x6 Eels - maybe even go with second Soul Scryer ) against top tier armies a lot. But still there are some flaws. I just do not believe that ultra elite armies with lots of eels and leaders to be viable - they can't soak up much mortal wounds, especially eels with their bravery are very suspect against armies like Seraphon,Nurgle or Changehost

[mmimzie]

If you say so, but that definitly wasn't how the games really went??

 

I really sont get your bromdar thing?? You know each unit is a separate drop with scryers?? You set the dryer up first and each unit that goes woth him are set up separately??

 

Against change host you'd have no where to set up blocks of thralls trying to come in from table edges.  Also as change host is 3 drops change host is just gonna go first. Any ground given to change host they keep for atleast 3 or 4 turns due to splitting and swapping. 

 

I see the thrall regen list as having a decent shot at being useful and having some decent match up. However the thrall list also has some really bad match up. For one I think thralls stand up well to vulkites. Mainly because vulkites list lack the power to chunk down the thralls, while the thralls also have similar or better mobility options depending on what vulkites list you are going against. That said the thrall regen list just loses to any list with a good amount of punch. Like daughters who can kill 30 blocks in single turns. 

 

[Tizianolol]

An intersting clarification about lotann.

hos ability +1 breavery and rerolls 1 to hit is for units entirely ( I don't know  if it's the word from English book) within 12"

that mean it's hard keep 2x30 thralls all within 12" . 

I just noticed volturnos ability +1 breavery is the same. All unit within 18 " in this case

[Acid_Nine]

So I got my King model today and yowza it's smaller than I thought,  Like, I was planning on getting a fish tank decoration for the base, but it's too small even for that without being grossly over the edge! that and there really is no way kitbash easily from what I have seen, and you are locked in to using either volturnous or the King  as soon as you get to the head. If I wasnt waiting for bits I could have made the guy in a few hours, but unlike my vamp's I plan on taking my time.

 

alsooooo, anyone know of any cool color changing painting techniques? like chaning depending on the angle of viewing?

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Against change host you'd have no where to set up blocks of thralls trying to come in from table edges.  Also as change host is 3 drops change host is just gonna go first. Any ground given to change host they keep for atleast 3 or 4 turns due to splitting and swapping. 

Against changehost you should never be able to set anything up in the backfield, no matter how small the unit.  Many builds these days are brimstone heavy, making it very easy for the tzeentch player to protect their entire territory. 

It's just a tough matchup (for most armies).  I think thrall blocks will be effective although I haven't been able to come up with a credible way for ID to take out a Gaunt summoner on balewind.   It may be possible to make a turn over charge with morrsarr and take out enough of the tzeentch chaff that they can't effectively defend any longer, but you'll have to play it out to see.

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Against changehost you should never be able to set anything up in the backfield, no matter how small the unit.  Many builds these days are brimstone heavy, making it very easy for the tzeentch player to protect their entire territory. 

It's just a tough matchup (for most armies).  I think thrall blocks will be effective although I haven't been able to come up with a credible way for ID to take out a Gaunt summoner on balewind.   It may be possible to make a turn over charge with morrsarr and take out enough of the tzeentch chaff that they can't effectively defend any longer, but you'll have to play it out to see.

Well one key bit of change host is popping the LOC. If you can drop the LOC quick before the change host has too much of a hold over the table, and then wall them off. All you really need to clear is maybe or two objective markers. The change host needs the LOC to beable to do the switching mechanic, which is a key part of thier ability to spread and claim every objective. 

 

It probably wouldn't be the keys to the house, but it's a step, and morrsarr could deliver thst with a little shooting support. 

[Sactownbri]

I’m two games in now. I’ve been playing with exactly what’s available plus proxy of a tide caster. Thralls are great. Lotann is fun but an easy pass. Dhom-hain and Nautilar are both pretty great just depending on if you will charge or be charged by your opponent. So far lack of ranged attacks is seriously hurting. Getting reavers on the table for next weeks vanguard battles has become critical.

[DantePQ]

 I think that lack of shooting is pretty bad, but GW is going away from shooting, DoK also didn't have much going (Blood Stalkers are worst unit in DoK book) but even they have Heartrenders who can harass lone leaders, Reavers are cool and I will field one unit as they have 10 shots, 20 attacks in melee and 30 shots at close range so they are perfect objectives holders but they won't make any hero sweat. 

[Tizianolol]

Guys I have a question about soulscryer ability . Can I deploy deep my soul render too with my thralls? Soul render count as a unit too?:)

[Siegfried VII]

Am I the only one who is upset about the fact that the eel riders were pushed for the fifth week release?? 

Sorry for the rant but I think it is ridiculous that one of the main units of the army will be released a whole freaking month after the release of the battletome...

[Acid_Nine]

9 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Am I the only one who is upset about the fact that the eel riders were pushed for the fifth week release?? 

Sorry for the rant but I think it is ridiculous that one of the main units of the army will be released a whole freaking month after the release of the battletome...

I mean, GW must not want my money that bad then...

But yea it's dumb

[Infeston]

49 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I mean, GW must not want my money that bad then...

But yea it's dumb

I am just waiting for the sharks because I really like the models. I may be one of the only people not buying the eels but instead buying the sharks.

I don't really collect models which I don't like aesthetic-wise. So it's only the sharks for me. The eels look too derpy in my opinion. 

But I was constantly refreshing the page in hope that the sharks might be under next weeks preorders and I got disappointed pretty fast, because the preorder was the Leviadon.

I also really like the Leviadon, but I don't want to spend so much money on this model. 

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Haven't been able to get to my local store to check the book out. I am a bit unclear as to who the Idoneth can actually 'ally' with. You can PM instead.

[Luke1705]

Yeah tbh I was thinking they’d leave the shark and Leviadon for the last week but oh well. Still have to get the king painted up anyhow

[Cookiez]

On the other hand, it's quite a relief for my wallet.

I'm thinking how to compensate the lack of AoSea in my list. I really would like him to work, as I wrote somewhere here earlier, he's huge potential but it's really hard for him to live to the expectations with 12" spell range and investing 100 more points into vortex is highly debatable. Theoretically then, I got 440 to spend and one spell to cast per turn - mystic shield probably.

First idea is the Royal Council. Downsides - 140 points for an artifact and 3x3" move, have to drop Volturnos. Upsides - less drops, artifact (Sands of Infinity for Tidecaster?), Command trait (+2 wounds? I thought Nightmare Legacy could work, but I've noticed I play very defensively so I'm rarely in range), Thralls in combat in the second round. I'd take Soulsryer either way, so not an upside really. Now I'm on 200 more to spend. Expand the Morrsarr unit to 9 and have 40 left or drop the Venator and have 320 to spend on... what?

Upgrading regular King to Volturnos. Downsides - no Command trait, but this is small, as the Traits are rather bad. So 400 points left. I really, really wouldn't like 30 more Thralls, but...

I'll be testing AoSea more thou for now as I LOVE the model I'll do everything to make him work. He definitely has to be more aggressive to pay for himself and with the teleport spell of Tidecaster it may work in the end. The B plan is the Royal Council, but I really don't like paying 140 points for almost nothing.

 

[Sactownbri]

With low bravery I find I’m using Inpiring Presence on the screening unit anyway so Volturnos as warlord will work out just fine. And I’ll be in line with you for Allopexes. I think they are one of the best all around units to pair with Volturnos on High Tide.

[whispersofblood]

6 hours ago, Cookiez said:

On the other hand, it's quite a relief for my wallet.

I'm thinking how to compensate the lack of AoSea in my list. I really would like him to work, as I wrote somewhere here earlier, he's huge potential but it's really hard for him to live to the expectations with 12" spell range and investing 100 more points into vortex is highly debatable. Theoretically then, I got 440 to spend and one spell to cast per turn - mystic shield probably.

First idea is the Royal Council. Downsides - 140 points for an artifact and 3x3" move, have to drop Volturnos. Upsides - less drops, artifact (Sands of Infinity for Tidecaster?), Command trait (+2 wounds? I thought Nightmare Legacy could work, but I've noticed I play very defensively so I'm rarely in range), Thralls in combat in the second round. I'd take Soulsryer either way, so not an upside really. Now I'm on 200 more to spend. Expand the Morrsarr unit to 9 and have 40 left or drop the Venator and have 320 to spend on... what?

Upgrading regular King to Volturnos. Downsides - no Command trait, but this is small, as the Traits are rather bad. So 400 points left. I really, really wouldn't like 30 more Thralls, but...

I'll be testing AoSea more thou for now as I LOVE the model I'll do everything to make him work. He definitely has to be more aggressive to pay for himself and with the teleport spell of Tidecaster it may work in the end. The B plan is the Royal Council, but I really don't like paying 140 points for almost nothing.

 

Why not take a King and Volturnos? A king is a pretty efficient model.