Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[DantePQ]

@mmimzie

Thanks for opinion on the army, I like the feel of it. 

I think that with ID a lot of comes down to deployment and terrain, good KO still can win and I guess it's pretty even match up and would make awesome not obvious battle. 

I like Reavers to guard objectives - Thralls are considerably worse at that, and you can't leave Eels or anything else as ID don't have much chaff to sacrifice and leave to do nothing, they shoot, are mobile can be used with deepstrike when needed. 

I still think Morssar as hammer are pretty bad sure they got more damage but with 15 maximum damage I was thinking about rend attacks, as non rend attacks won't be good for a hammer unit so their rend damage is very limited and after charge they are toasted which bring another problem that ID don't have reliable hammer with good amount of rend/mortals wounds (Aspect of the Storm is but will he be played?). Also Morssar are kind of useless after charge as they will just die and there are a lot of things that can survive charge of 6 eels, they are horrbile when charged/shoot at. You can't relay on them to take down that crucial target (for example I playtested that they won't be able to clear Slaughter Queen on Cauldron and after that she shreds them to pieces).

I like Volturnos, anything that helps against Changehost is cool and he helps, maybe his damage isn;t mindblowing but bonses to ID and Bravery are cool. 

I will give Geenral +2Wounds it will help him survive a lot.  

[Trebuchenanigans]

It's been a long time since I last posted in here (sadly, life got in the way of my intent to start a KO army), but I picked up the IDK book today with the intent to start a new army. Why? Because fishmen.

 

Despite their IRL cost, I find myself drawn to the Namarti units, and I loved the Soulrender's angler/later-fish look the first time I saw it. So, naturally, I find myself drawn to a Mor'Phann force, with a Namarti Corps forming the bulk. Here's a rough sketch of a 2k list, using models I like more than anything that might be considered overly competitive.

 

Soulrender

- General: Born from agony (+2 wounds characteristic)

Tidecaster

- Sands of Infinity (extends spell for 2 of your hero phase)

Aspect of Storm

- Terrornight Venom (re-rolls 1s to wound for one melee weapon - on spear)

20 Thralls

10 Thralls

2x10 Reavers

2x Allopex

- both with harpoon launcher (3-shot weapon)

6 Morsarr Guard

- full command

Waracroll Battalion: Namarti Corps

Idea is for the Morsarr & AoStorm to be hammers, charging units held up by the Thralls. Big unit of Thralls is hammer, with up to 6 slain models returned each of my battleshock phases thanks to warscroll battalion & Mor'Phann enclave trait. Tidecaster will support this block, along with one unit of Reavers. The 10 Thralls & 10 Reavers might end up on a flank, and/or supporting AoStorm.

 

Although I'll use the Mor'Phann traits, I'm thinking of doing a descendant enclave, but one still in Shyish. I want to give them Salamanders black skin, bone armour, and purple cloth. Give them a real menace from the depths look. Might also eventually work on a list with a King as general, but with a big Thrall block for an anvil.

[mmimzie]

5 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@mmimzie

Thanks for opinion on the army, I like the feel of it. 

I think that with ID a lot of comes down to deployment and terrain, good KO still can win and I guess it's pretty even match up and would make awesome not obvious battle. 

I like Reavers to guard objectives - Thralls are considerably worse at that, and you can't leave Eels or anything else as ID don't have much chaff to sacrifice and leave to do nothing, they shoot, are mobile can be used with deepstrike when needed. 

I still think Morssar as hammer are pretty bad sure they got more damage but with 15 maximum damage I was thinking about rend attacks, as non rend attacks won't be good for a hammer unit so their rend damage is very limited and after charge they are toasted which bring another problem that ID don't have reliable hammer with good amount of rend/mortals wounds (Aspect of the Storm is but will he be played?). Also Morssar are kind of useless after charge as they will just die and there are a lot of things that can survive charge of 6 eels, they are horrbile when charged/shoot at. You can't relay on them to take down that crucial target (for example I playtested that they won't be able to clear Slaughter Queen on Cauldron and after that she shreds them to pieces).

I like Volturnos, anything that helps against Changehost is cool and he helps, maybe his damage isn;t mindblowing but bonses to ID and Bravery are cool. 

I will give Geenral +2Wounds it will help him survive a lot.  

I forgot to note, as they've said in the video a few times, that ionrach enclave actualy forces your general to take it's command trait. that command trait being that your allies can use tides <.< so you might want to drop onrach

Does this shrine have any other defensive buffs out side of 5++ from alliegence and it's own shield aura giving it a 4+??  As when i calculate the average damage and rolled it 6 or 7 times just at my desk while watching this movie i get ~13 damage, with the calucation being  13.31 damage.  If you need a shrine dead those 6  eels can also use thier bug zapper ability which should do an average of ~3 mortal wounds on it's own.  So obviously thats a knifes edge if it's about a 50/50 kill on the shirne... that said we aren't rocking buffs and you only need a tiny bit to push that over the edge.

So to fix both of the above problems just take Dhom-Hain which has no drawbacks or forced changes to your play, and gives you reroll 1's to hit. 

Or for your list specificly with the tidecaller as general potentiall shifting the tides i assume??? You can again give her the +2 wounds like you wanted, but also with her shifting the tides in match ups where it matter's you can take fuethan getting rerolls of 1 to hit on turn 1 since it will be flood tide, and getting rerolls of 1 to wound for your mounts all game. 
 

Then from there if you really want to make sure the shrine dies <.< even though the scales should be tipped abit in your favor, you could just help the eels out a smidge with any outside damage on said shrine if you want it dead that baddly. 

[DantePQ]

Sure but you're getting 1:1 for Shrine at best , Shirne usually has re-rollable 5++  or mystic shield. Fully buffed Shrine is much better then fully buffed Morssar as it got : 3+ save and 5++ re-rollable save (and re-rolls of saves is quite reliable buff to activate). They are not that sure to take out Treeman as well (with Briarseath) as they can be easily at -2 to hit on 4+. I don't know I'd like my hammer to be reliable to clear such targets (especially as ID doesn't have ways to kill those targets thourgh shooting/magic). 

I just don't like Morssar as they seem to be one use only, once they charged they're toasted and their damage output isn't amazing for them to be reliable hammer. It's 320 that works only on charge and isn't reliable also lose one to shooting/magic and their damage output drops a lot.

Aspect of the Storm is only reliable hammer ID got along with Thralls   

[mmimzie]

34 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Sure but you're getting 1:1 for Shrine at best , Shirne usually has re-rollable 5++  or mystic shield. Fully buffed Shrine is much better then fully buffed Morssar as it got : 3+ save and 5++ re-rollable save (and re-rolls of saves is quite reliable buff to activate). They are not that sure to take out Treeman as well (with Briarseath) as they can be easily at -2 to hit on 4+. I don't know I'd like my hammer to be reliable to clear such targets (especially as ID doesn't have ways to kill those targets thourgh shooting/magic). 

I just don't like Morssar as they seem to be one use only, once they charged they're toasted and their damage output isn't amazing for them to be reliable hammer. It's 320 that works only on charge and isn't reliable also lose one to shooting/magic and their damage output drops a lot.

Aspect of the Storm is only reliable hammer ID got along with Thralls   

I guess??? But the aspect of the sea can't kill  a hag queen even with out those buffs... melee combat he's about the same as transformed morathi. How good he is... hmmm I don't know?? Morathi is good because you can't kill that model with out lots of effort. So the thing I guess to consider is transformed morathi worth it she wasn't a wizard and didn't stop damage at 3 and had a reroll 1s to wound aura??

[Hoseman]

With battletome on hands I reallly dont know where to go with this army.

I like the soulrender with thralls or reavers but don't know how to go. I have sure I take AoSea, Volturos or King in doubt. The rest.... don't know. I thought Eels will going to be more heavy but I dont see them so wonderfull, I see they're hard on charge but then they are simple no rend units... ok, in 4th turn we can retreat and charge but will they survive? I don't like horde armys but I only see thrall as a good damage unit...

[Skreech Verminking]

Hi everybody, 

so since the Thralls with they’re low cost of points came out, I  was wondering how good they are.

for they’re pointcost, they seem to be similar to stormvermins and Goregruntas, but are thanks to they’re special rule mostly better them.

[DantePQ]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I guess??? But the aspect of the sea can't kill  a hag queen even with out those buffs... melee combat he's about the same as transformed morathi. How good he is... hmmm I don't know?? Morathi is good because you can't kill that model with out lots of effort. So the thing I guess to consider is transformed morathi worth it she wasn't a wizard and didn't stop damage at 3 and had a reroll 1s to wound aura??

Sure but my point wasn't about Morathi or Aspect of the Sea. 

I like Aspect of the Storm better then 6  Morssar as he can retreat and charge. My point was that even 6 Morssar aren't reliablr hammer unit, sure they can take out some lesser units/wounded models but they are usually one use only as they will die easily to melee and magic  and then they aren't sure to take down any important target. They just suffer a lot from having only 2 attacks with rend and extra damage. 

[BrownDog]

Just read the backstory behind how High King Volturnos lost his eye and it's so great

"THE UMBRAL SEA AMBUSH:
Hoping to bring an end to hostilities
between the Idoneth Deepkin and
the Daughters of Khaine, High King
Volturnos accepts a meeting with their
leader, Morathi. He is eager to work out
a truce between the two aelf peoples,
but Volturnos is deceived. He has been
lured into a meeting not with the High
Oracle of Khaine, but with the Masque
– a powerful daemon of Slaanesh. In
the ensuing battle Volturnos loses an
eye, but escapes with his life."

[Aelfric]

I'm thinking of taking an AoSea as my general for the extra two wounds and just using inspiring presence, probably as Mor'phann with Thralls,Reavers and Soulrenders as the main components of the army.  Not quite sure as this means missing the extra attacks at High tide from a king.

[Acid_Nine]

I was Considering the way we can use the Morsar eels, I think we can reliably get 3 turns on the charge through our game if the enemy is within turn 1 charge range.  so way this could work I imagine (without any modifications to high tide) is turn 1 charge, turn 2 retreat 15"-20" while another unit tarpits, Turn 3 charge at high tide, Turn 4 hit and run charge at Ebb Tide. Granted it's on paper, but the plan can still see them get the charge on over half of the turns, and they have the speed to get there and do damage. High value targets can get hit hard with a discharge and depending on conclave can still get hit very hard with a charge that will at least cripple them (depending on how hot your dice is.) while units like the shield elves don't really care about the charge and can try and sit in a cover bubble through the game to be safe. 

Add that to -1 hit debuffs and other shinanegans I think we can have a good deal with these morsarr eels.  It may require practice to get the retreats and charges down but I believe we have the stuff to do it. 

[DantePQ]

Maybe but your plan doesn't take into consideration that any units that strikes back ant eels will kill some of them and if you charge unit like Slaughter Queen or Vampire Lord on dragon quite possibly they will be just gone. 

So unless you want to use them to clear chaff like skins, 10 man battleline units it won't work (and there are other units that can clear chaff). Even something like 10 Witches will inflict about 7 wounds of them and such units will counter charge them easily. 

[JonnyTheKing]

So I just picked up my book today and I have to say I'm a tad disappointed. Reading through the rules there's nothing that makes me keen to play them as an army but would love to see what people come up with!

 

Edit - Although I do love the Thralls...

[Acid_Nine]

14 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Maybe but your plan doesn't take into consideration that any units that strikes back ant eels will kill some of them and if you charge unit like Slaughter Queen or Vampire Lord on dragon quite possibly they will be just gone. 

So unless you want to use them to clear chaff like skins, 10 man battleline units it won't work (and there are other units that can clear chaff). Even something like 10 Witches will inflict about 7 wounds of them and such units will counter charge them easily. 

no, i've taken it into account just like them not being able to make a 6" charge with rerolls and a soul scryer. it's all dice, and if that VampLord fails all his saves they'll do great, and if he doesn't then it wasn't meant to be. I'm considering that a unit with a 3+ save in leviadon's cover will survive long enough to have some fun with, and if that plan goes wrong for a particular battle then time to think on the fly.  for example a unit of blood knights on the charge SHOULD wipe out a night goblin unit, but the dice had them get outperformed by simple  skeletons in that battle. 

I'm mostly arguing that Eels are still worth it in my opinion and gave an idea of how they can be used, but it's fine if you want to use the Aspect of the sea. I'm still considering that plan to be the way I play the army, and in past experiences I think it would be valuable to at least try it out. who knows, maybe the vamp lord is like mine and rolls 1's and 2's for his claws and jaws and I can get away safely. I said as much that it was a plan on paper, mostly to get around getting stuck not doing max damage.

[Pompe]

So, after buying the book earlier today I am thinking of getting the following:

Enclave: Fuethán

General:
Isharann Tidecaster
Command Trait: Lord of Storm and Sea (+2 bravery for units wholly within 12”)
Lore of the Deeps: Vorpral Maelstrom

Leaders:
Eidolon, Aspect of the Sea
Arcane Artefact: Sands of Infinity
Lore of the Deeps: Abyssal Darkness

Isharan Soulscryer

Battle line:
3 units of 10 Namarti Reavers

Units:
2 units of 3 Akhelian Ishlaen Guard
4 units of 3 Akhelian Morrsarr Guard

Points: 1980
Wounds: 124

With a Tidecaster as my general I get to use Nmamarti Reavers as battle line. Furthermore, I get to reverse the Tides of Death. In addition, the Fuethán enclave lets me treat Ebb tide as Flood Tide. This gives me the ability to reroll 1´s to hit in both of the two Flood Tides.

As the Namarti Reavers get to run and shoot on their first turn I will have 30 shots at a minimum range of 27” (18” +8” +1”, and that is if I roll a 1 twice in a row for the run roll), with rerolls on 1´s to hit. I will get 90 shots at a minimum range of 18” (1 on the run roll). Furthermore, I get to run and charge on the first turn. This makes me able to lock up one key enemy unit with one of the units of the Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (on which I preferably has cast Mystic Shield on). This is helped by the +3” to the charge using the Isharan Soulscryer. On later turns he will be used to hit enemy key units with 2-3 units of Akhelian Morrsarr Guard.

The heroes I have will probably be rather clumped up so my Priest will get +4 on the roll for the Ritual. The Eidolon will use his Sands of Infinity to double the turn of Abyssal Darkness during turn 1.

It might not be the most competitive list out there, but it has a few surprises in store for the enemy, and I get to use a lot of the really nice Namarti Reavers models!

[Aelfric]

Maybe the Morrsarr Eels are the unit to deepstrike in with the Soulscryer.  Also been thinking of doing this with the Sharks.

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Maybe but your plan doesn't take into consideration that any units that strikes back ant eels will kill some of them and if you charge unit like Slaughter Queen or Vampire Lord on dragon quite possibly they will be just gone. 

So unless you want to use them to clear chaff like skins, 10 man battleline units it won't work (and there are other units that can clear chaff). Even something like 10 Witches will inflict about 7 wounds of them and such units will counter charge them easily. 

Maaybe??? but i mean the reason this line started is the 2 units of khinari vs the eels in your list. In 1 turn the eels will do more damage on thier charge than khinari would do over like 3 or 4 turns x.x. 
 

The Eels can be used to sit on an objective if you need them to, and they'll hold onto that 3 turns worth of damage you would have gotten from the khinari and deliever that any turn you wish wish. In fact if they chill on an objective till turn 3, and then charge out, even if they get counter charged they'll atleast get to fight twice. 

So comparing them to khinari they either do more damage out the gate right away (Since you have a scryer already in your list to get them in there turn 1) or can be banked for thier greater turn 3 effect.  Or more realisticly if i got theb ottom of turn 2, i'd probaly charge them in then, and that way if i get double or not for the 3 round they can fight first.  Reguardless 3 charging in with your thralls. your opponent is gonna have thier hands full. And you know what if your opponent sink damage into your more durable eel unit than you can thank them for sparing more of your thralls.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

Maybe the Morrsarr Eels are the unit to deepstrike in with the Soulscryer.  Also been thinking of doing this with the Sharks.

Yeah i've changed my planned list up abit after a tiny play test and some spirited conversations. They are kind of a bomb unit. 

Think we'll see some sort of turn 1 charge shinnagens out of every ID list. 

[Aelfric]

3 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Yeah i've changed my planned list up abit after a tiny play test and some spirited conversations. They are kind of a bomb unit. 

Think we'll see some sort of turn 1 charge shinnagens out of every ID list. 

The query I have, though, is what to do with the Soulscryer afterwards.  They're going to be out on a limb and vulnerable since it's a one-way ticket.  I suppose it's a necessary sacrifice.  Having played Wanderers, I know how hard it can be to be wholly within 6" of the edge and more than 9" from the enemy.  Adding within 12" of the Soulscryer will be even more of a pain.

[Sete]

Finally bought the codex on the app.

Well. Love it.

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

The query I have, though, is what to do with the Soulscryer afterwards.  They're going to be out on a limb and vulnerable since it's a one-way ticket.  I suppose it's a necessary sacrifice.  Having played Wanderers, I know how hard it can be to be wholly within 6" of the edge and more than 9" from the enemy.  Adding within 12" of the Soulscryer will be even more of a pain.

guess??? alittle measurement. So his skill is 24" away, and your models can be 12" away from the scryer. Then you have to be more than 9" from the enemy models. So saying you drop your unit 9" away from the enemy units +12 the scryer can be away thats a good 21" away from the enemy unit. He isn't that abandoned. That and depending on where the objectives are or if they are hero specific objectives, i'd try to get him to work on that issue.  He is also a the best ritual caster right??? So you might also want to get him in a spot to where he can be the one to cast the ritual next turn to buff your edolans. 

[DantePQ]

@mmimzie why you imply that I comapred Morssar to Heartrenders? I never did. Those units are totally different and I nevet comapred them. Morssar are semi hammer unit, Heartrenders are utility unit if you compare them damage-wise you're missing a point.

And yes I'd rather have Heartrenders then Morssar who are just average and unreliable. Not because they have better damage output but because they can fill a role none of Deepkin can. 

And Soul Scryer deepstrike is also hardly reliable as opponent can easily block as it's hard to deploy that way within big units. And I will play him anyway. 

No good player will allow turn 1 charge unless he wants you to charge (like Witches with Bucklers and Marty's Sacrifice) or will allow charge unit something you can't take down. 

[mmimzie]

8 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@mmimzie why you imply that I comapred Morssar to Heartrenders? I never did. Those units are totally different and I nevet comapred them. Morssar are semi hammer unit, Heartrenders are utility unit if you compare them damage-wise you're missing a point.

And yes I'd rather have Heartrenders then Morssar who are just average and unreliable. Not because they have better damage output but because they can fill a role none of Deepkin can. 

And Soul Scryer deepstrike is also hardly reliable as opponent can easily block as it's hard to deploy that way within big units. And I will play him anyway. 

No good player will allow turn 1 charge unless he wants you to charge (like Witches with Bucklers and Marty's Sacrifice) or will allow charge unit something you can't take down. 

I was saying it was my original comment to replace the khinari with the morsaar. 

I definitly agree your opponent won't let you charge what you want turn one. However, it's part of the Idoneth unmathable math, right??? Your opponet is palying around your tides, your forgotten nightmare, and your turn 1/2 charge potential. it's part of that -1 to hit to multiple target units, and maybe some -2>

Bucklers and marty's sacrfice is nice but you ahve to go first, you have to get your prayer off, The buckler witch unit has to wrap itself around your whole army to be the only charge option availible.  Is it gonna win the game on turn one and crush your opponents soul so they have no more option to play the game, and you can declare victory on the spot?? No It's just another thing in the recipe book toward winning the game. 

[DantePQ]

Sure, but you got Tides that opponent got to play around other armies have tools Deepkin player will have to play around so it's not like it's advantage Deepkin. 

I don't need to buble anything just make sure Witches are the only thing you can charge turn 1. It's not rocket science. 

Yeah I don't see Morssar as a hammer unit as they can't reliably kill key targets (and that's main reason you field hammer units) they are semi hammer at best. 

And I am not saying that Deepkin are bad, I will collect then but right know I don't see them as top tier army. They have amazing tools to make glass canon work but they don't have much canons as their best offensive unit is Aspect of the Storm and Thralls. AND Thralls spam will be great I just think that Morssar are average unit that die easily and don't do much on any turn they didn't charge and when charged is toested. 

[JonnyTheKing]

30 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Sure, but you got Tides that opponent got to play around other armies have tools Deepkin player will have to play around so it's not like it's advantage Deepkin. 

I don't need to buble anything just make sure Witches are the only thing you can charge turn 1. It's not rocket science. 

Yeah I don't see Morssar as a hammer unit as they can't reliably kill key targets (and that's main reason you field hammer units) they are semi hammer at best. 

And I am not saying that Deepkin are bad, I will collect then but right know I don't see them as top tier army. They have amazing tools to make glass canon work but they don't have much canons as their best offensive unit is Aspect of the Storm and Thralls. AND Thralls spam will be great I just think that Morssar are average unit that die easily and don't do much on any turn they didn't charge and when charged is toested. 

Agree with this, reading through the book nothing stood out to me as overly powerful and auto include, which is usually a good sign of a well-balanced book. I have to agree that thralls seem like the winners in the book, they're fairly versatile  since they're strong against single wound and multi-wound models.