Sportsmanship and AOS

[AGPO]

One thing that unites all AOS players, from dedicated narrative gamers to top ranked tourney players is the importance of good sportsmanship.  But what exactly is it? Whilst there are plenty of builds, tactics and general approaches which divide us - proxying, 'filth' lists and RAW v RAI to name a few - is there a universal notion of sportsmanship  that transcends the different approaches to the hobby?

For me, good sportsmanship is about the following:

1. No matter the outcome of the game, you should always part on good terms with your opponent, wanting to play that person again.
2. Always let your opponent go back and do something they honestly forgot, unless it means resetting a big chunk of the game.
3. If a rules dispute takes more than a minute, just roll for it. If it turns out later you were wrong and it went in your favour, buy your opponent a drink to make up for it.
4. Banter is fine, but know where the person you're playing's boundaries are and don't overstep. 
5. If that crucial charge or spell is a tiny fraction of an inch out, let them have it or roll for it. You probably haven't been measuring 100% accurately all game anyway.
6. There's nothing glorious about a grossly one sided game. 
7. Know what the other person is looking for from a game and try to make sure they get it. 
8. Be supportive of new players so that they become the worthy foes of tomorrow.

Any ideas of what constitutes sportsmanship or examples, good and bad? Please share them!

[Adasi]

good topic and i agree with all what you've said.

I would add that; in a tournament where wins are counted and you know you're getting the major win; let your opponent have their moments. For instance I've played someone in the past who was thrashing me, but i know they engineered it so that (my) Skarbrand could charge their big Stardrake and take it off. It didn't change the outcome of the game but instead of leaving me feeling crappy about the game, i got to have a "moment" of cool to look back on.

[RuneBrush]

Really nice topic!

I've only three additions that come to mind.

It's only a game - the end result (though important) isn't going to make either of you rich or result in the loser being taken away and put into an unmarked grave.

Give as you wish to receive - if you'd like an enjoyable game, make sure you give one in return, this applies if you're playing a friendly round a mates house or at a super competitive tournament.  If you give a poor game expect to get one in return.

Finally - don't be a <insert expletive>

[AGPO]

@RuneBrush, I'd always assumed "don't be a ****" was the Other Most Important Rule. 

[KnightFire]

I agree with some of this, but I think sportsmanship is more subjective than objeictve and a lot of it comes down to the type of game you are playing and the type of game your opponent is looking for.

With regard to your specific points:

13 minutes ago, AGPO said:

 

1. No matter the outcome of the game, you should always part on good terms with your opponent, wanting to play that person again.
2. Always let your opponent go back and do something they honestly forgot, unless it means resetting a big chunk of the game.
3. If a rules dispute takes more than a minute, just roll for it. If it turns out later you were wrong and it went in your favour, buy your opponent a drink to make up for it.
4. Banter is fine, but know where the person you're playing's boundaries are and don't overstep. 
5. If that crucial charge or spell is a tiny fraction of an inch out, let them have it or roll for it. You probably haven't been measuring 100% accurately all game anyway.
6. There's nothing glorious about a grossly one sided game. 
7. Know what the other person is looking for from a game and try to make sure they get it. 
8. Be supportive of new players so that they become the worthy foes of tomorrow.

Any ideas of what constitutes sportsmanship or examples, good and bad? Please share them!

1) Absolutely key to sportsmanship, and a lot of this is about understanding the type of game they are after and adjusting your gameplay style (as they should adjust theirs too). If your playing someone new who is looking to learn the game you play a different game to if you are in the last game of the Warhammer GT finals.

2) I disagree with this, its something I mostly do but it does depend on the situation, on the top tables at a tournament or at a masters style tournament its often the case that players aught to know what they are doing, and the way the game is won is by punishing mistakes. In most games though I would allow it.

3) Again I think it depends what is at stake, in a tournament game you have a right to a decision from a tournament judge and you should use it if you feel you need it. Many rules disputes can get heated, especially if their are allegations of cheating involved, and having them officially cleared up is important. If you and your opponent can't agree whether the rule "you automatically lose the game if I say so" exists you aren't going to want to rely on a dice outcome, you absolutely know it doesnt exist and know that it would be ruled your way by a tournament judge.

4) Absolutely key

5) Same as 2 - punishing your opponents mistakes is how you win games at a high level, so it depends completely on the context of the game.

6) Agreed, but again it depends on context and definition of one sided. I would say more key is avoiding going that extra mile to make your opponent feel bad. If you have them beaten you dont need to grind them into the dirt.

7) agreed completely (but this does counteract some of your points above, as your opponent may be looking for a game played strictly to rules and where mistakes are punished)

8) Very definately.

 

Overall, I think sportsmanship really is just your rules 1 and 7 - understand what your opponent is looking to get out of the game and try and help them do that, so that they would be pleased to play you again. The rest is down to individuals to decide, and depends very much on the setting.

[Planar]

3 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

• Know what the other person is looking for from a game and try to make sure they get it. 

This!

Great topic overall.  

[chord]

I think it's key to remember that it's Just A Game!  If winning at all costs at a table top game is that important to a person they need to reflect on the fact it's a game of toy soldiers 

[AGPO]

All excellent points @KnightFire. Cards on the table I have no experience of top level tournaments, so I can't really speak to what players want at the sharp end of competitive play. In my experience, even with competitive players I do think there's a difference between punishing tactical errors - such as putting a unit in range of a countercharge or failing to protect your home objectives - and honest procedural mistakes like say leaving your bloodsecrator stationary but forgetting to announce he's using portal of skulls, even though that's your clear intention. I guess this is something that comes under my point 7 though.

One thing I'd definitely add is that you should never assume someone will be okay with this sort of thing. Asking is one of those compulsory courtesies and in the end it is your error.

[Sleboda]

This is a favorite discussion of mine.  Thanks for the post. I am definitely going to come back with thoughts later when I am not constrained by using a phone.

For now I'll make just one point: I think the premise makes an incorrect assumption. I think there are plenty of people who don't give a darn about sportsmanship. There are also tournament players who see that sportsmanship scores are part of an award and will take being a good sport into account to manipulate the system (and no, it's not just as good as actually being a good sport - they can manipulate you into a spot they can take advantage of and abuse your good nature).

[Rhellion]

3 hours ago, AGPO said:

One thing that unites all AOS players, from dedicated narrative gamers to top ranked tourney players is the importance of good sportsmanship.  But what exactly is it? Whilst there are plenty of builds, tactics and general approaches which divide us - proxying, 'filth' lists and RAW v RAI to name a few - is there a universal notion of sportsmanship  that transcends the different approaches to the hobby?

For me, good sportsmanship is about the following:

1. No matter the outcome of the game, you should always part on good terms with your opponent, wanting to play that person again.
2. Always let your opponent go back and do something they honestly forgot, unless it means resetting a big chunk of the game.
3. If a rules dispute takes more than a minute, just roll for it. If it turns out later you were wrong and it went in your favour, buy your opponent a drink to make up for it.
4. Banter is fine, but know where the person you're playing's boundaries are and don't overstep. 
5. If that crucial charge or spell is a tiny fraction of an inch out, let them have it or roll for it. You probably haven't been measuring 100% accurately all game anyway.
6. There's nothing glorious about a grossly one sided game. 
7. Know what the other person is looking for from a game and try to make sure they get it. 
8. Be supportive of new players so that they become the worthy foes of tomorrow.

Any ideas of what constitutes sportsmanship or examples, good and bad? Please share them!

Good post. 6 and 7 are a bit subjective but the tone is right to me.

[Caffran101]

I would say in response to point 5 - if it is an important charge (or retreat!). You premeasure the distance and agree it with your opponent and then roll your dice.

[Rhellion]

2 minutes ago, Caffran101 said:

I would say in response to point 5 - if it is an important charge (or retreat!). You premeasure the distance and agree it with your opponent and then roll your dice.

I try to play this with everything, honestly. Especially when it is close. The pre-discussion and clarity always helps.

"Your range is 18? OK I am moving just outside of 18... let's say 18.5"

"What is your max charge range? OK I will be 1" more than that"

[Thomas Lyons]

5 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

I try to play this with everything, honestly. Especially when it is close. The pre-discussion and clarity always helps.

"Your range is 18? OK I am moving just outside of 18... let's say 18.5"

"What is your max charge range? OK I will be 1" more than that"

This is so, so important.  I totally agree!  Communicating midstream on both what your intent is and pre-agreeing to measurements is so important.  This diffuses a lot of conflicts before they ever start.  

[Galas]

13 minutes ago, Rhellion said:

I try to play this with everything, honestly. Especially when it is close. The pre-discussion and clarity always helps.

"Your range is 18? OK I am moving just outside of 18... let's say 18.5"

"What is your max charge range? OK I will be 1" more than that"

This is how I play it. It makes no sense to measure distances to the fraction of an inch when how you measure it can change the result, or models can have been moved, etc... Always clarify that kind of important things "I'm leaving my unit 13" apart from yours". It doesn't matter they are actually 12,6" or 13,23". Your intent was clear and thats what should be used.

[nine7six]

number 2 is something i've never understood, why do people not others let them know if they forget a phase/ability etc?

If i win I want to make sure it's because of my list and skill and not because the other person kept on forgetting things, sounds down right dirty to hold your breath because you know they didn't do something that benefits you even at the top level.

[RuneBrush]

Just now, nine7six said:

number 2 is something i've never understood, why do people not others let them know if they forget a phase/ability etc?

If i win I want to make sure it's because of my list and skill and not because the other person kept on forgetting things, sounds down right dirty to hold your breath because you know they didn't do something that benefits you even at the top level.

Don't know about anybody else, but I'll sort of not pay attention when my opponent is doing bits   I tend to be working out what I'm going to do next.  However on the odd occasion I have spotted my opponent has missed something I'll try to nudge/remind them.

[Infeston]

4 minutes ago, nine7six said:

number 2 is something i've never understood, why do people not others let them know if they forget a phase/ability etc?

If i win I want to make sure it's because of my list and skill and not because the other person kept on forgetting things, sounds down right dirty to hold your breath because you know they didn't do something that benefits you even at the top level.

That is also how I do it always. I always remember my opponent if I he has forgotten something. But I also never play in tournament settings. For me it is important to have an interesting game. I also don't really care about winning that much. I like the discussions, the funny situations when something fails and we have to find an explanation for this etc.

If the tournament atmosphere is that much about winning that you don't focus on having a fun game or helping your opponent I will propably stay away from tournaments in the long run. The thing is that outside of my regular gaming group I can't find anyone who doesn't want to play competitive games. 

[Guest]

Can we disregard the, ahem, 'stricter' approach to sportsmanship that might be practiced on the top tables at major tournaments (as described by @KnightFire) on account of the fact that this represents an infinitesimally tiny fraction of the AoS community? @AGPO's list looks spot on as it is to me.

[JamesT]

I find that starting the game with some discussion helps a ton. Something similar to what Alex Fennel said in his game at LVO. Sorta like a "Hey man, I'm here to play a gotcha game. If you clearly state your intention and it's close enough, we'll play it". 

 

So yeh, if they say "Ok, your big-gun-of-sheer-doominess is 18" range and you move 5"? Ok, I'm going to move my guys to just out of 23". 

And if, in your turn, you check the range and they accidentally had a model that was 22.5" in, whatever. They stated intent. Don't be that guy. 

 

Obviously this is within reason. If they say "Ok, my hero buff is 6", I'm leaving one guy in the unit to be within 6" of the hero", and when they go to use the buf it turns out it's more like a foot away, then yeh, that's not quite close enough haha. 

 

But have an easy go-lucky attitude and you should do fine there

[heywoah_twitch]

5 hours ago, nine7six said:

number 2 is something i've never understood, why do people not others let them know if they forget a phase/ability etc?

If i win I want to make sure it's because of my list and skill and not because the other person kept on forgetting things, sounds down right dirty to hold your breath because you know they didn't do something that benefits you even at the top level.

You did win because of your Skill.

Skill is, among other things, not forgetting your own plays.  Trying to play optimally and improve is fun and challenging. If they immediately remember, sure, but not if anything meaningful has happened. 

#3 I definitely disagree with, just ask the TO, you want to play by the rules (and not be taken advantage of by a player trying to just roll D6 for rules he knows are wrong).

#5 "if something is literally out of range, just break the rules to cheat for your opponent". What? This shows a total lack of respect for your opponent as an adult. 

2,3,5 are where sportsmanship goes off the deep end into full blown "playing against a dictator and letting him cheat so he doesn't kill you" level of pandering.

6,7,8 are quite right. If your opponent wants a beer&pretzels game, make sure you're on the same page. As others have said, clear communication is key, as are all your rules and interactions, gotcha moments from ignorance (rather than him forgetting/not considering something) are best avoided.

Its chess with way cooler pieces or mtg on a battlefield imo.

[AGPO]

If  "playing against a dictator and letting him cheat so he doesn't kill you" is what springs to mind when letting someone use their command ability slightly late at not cost to yourself, perhaps it's not sportsmanship that's going off the deep end?

[heywoah_twitch]

I too was going for humor 

Obviously it was a response to the full collection of 'whatever dude' gimmies and not the single most minor example that you mentioned.

I think that the community is harmed when 'trying to be nice' expands fully into and past playing by the rules. We're all adults, it's a game of skill and chance with tactics and strategy, and a certain amount of respect for your opponent is in order. One part of that respect is assuming they can handle making some mistakes, and that we are all striving to improve.

[Galas]

I think people is reading too much into 5#. For me at least, as I said previously, is about stating clearly before any problem arises what distances you intent to put your models away. If I'm saying that I put my models 23" away from yours, and yours move 5", then they are 18" away from mine. Not 17" or 19", even if they are if you measure it. 

This is not X-wing where the game surface is totally flat and precision is EXACT. Gametables are by their own nature, irregular, measurement can differ based in how you measure it, and models can be moved because you hit the table or something.

As Thomans Lyons said, talk with your opponent during the game to make things clear. That way you avoid 100% of discussions about distances.

[PlasticCraic]

I really like #5 personally, if we're talking fractions of a millimetre.

The "stating your intentions" thing is also important with base to base contact (or lack of).  When you charge a unit, you should state whether and which models are going into base to base to lock models in place - makes things a lot cleaner when piling in happens.

[AGPO]

Fair play (get it?!) 

I should probably add a qualifier to the statements you disagree with - if your opponent is clearly taking the **** or abusing your sportsmanlike behaviour then all bets are off - teach them a lesson!

I think that would cover your objection to #3, although I'd point out that a) the overwhelming majority of games take place without a handy TO on hand and b) most blatantly false rules can be solved in under a minute by flicking to the relevant warscroll. The rulebook is only 4 pages these days after all!

On #5, I don't think this shows any disrespect to my opponent. There are plenty of scenarios where it's not entirely clear whether a model gets within exactly half an inch, and it's fair to say that through the course of most games models get moved by both players when picking up errant dice, moving other units, slipping on sloped surfaces etc. I agree with other posters that the best option with a charge is to agree the distance before rolling, but there are some cases, like range for a shooting attack or spell your opponent hasn't anticipated where there's no roll and it comes down purely to a measurement. I don't want to win because I spent time quibbling over a faction of a millimetre because that's not respecting myself as an adult.

On #2, I think it's summed up best by Frontline Gaming's post on *that* moment from the LVO.  It's about how you want to win. Tony won the game, but he lost the final due to a moment his opponent would have let him off with had he been a better sport earlier. As it is he walked away as 40K's answer to Trevor Chappell or Vinoo Mankad* whilst Alex's sportsmanship and good grace has enabled him to raise $10,000 for charity. Who really won?


* for hobbyists who aren't from cricket playing nations (and those who don't care about cricket!) 'Mankad and Chappell both performed acts in prominent international matches  which whilst perfectly legal, were considered profoundly unsportsmanlike and against the spirit of the game. Both men's careers were forever overshadowed by the incident, and in Mankad's case the act in question is still known as 'Mankading' 70 years later.