Kaleb Daark Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 7 hours ago, Professor Clio said: I just refuse to play people like that. I have no obligation to be miserable and get cheesed off the table just because they want to. There's plenty of nice guys with competitive, yet fun armies to play with. I got no time for that kind of player. Absolutely. He was your 50 witch elves, executioners, cauldrons and helebron cheese in 8th and the full custodes bore fest in heresy- he was so happy that it's staying 7th Ed for now! 4 hours ago, Bjarni St. said: The FW rules team aren't exactly known for having their ****** together. I don't think there's any conspiracy here, just a bit of incompetence. Isn't this the truth. In this instance they have played lip service to AoS compared to the effort they've gon to for the 40k8th launch. But then again from a pure money point of view I wouldn't blame them in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erdemo86 Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 I dont know why all of you are complaining. No one plays death, and that 280 points morngul will not change anything, so wayne. Think about skyfires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Erdemo86 said: I dont know why all of you are complaining. No one plays death, and that 280 points morngul will not change anything, so wayne. Think about skyfires I think 4 mourghuls for 1k would give people a 2nd glace at death.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thostos Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 Just checked my 40k app,,Mournghoul still showing at 400 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Thostos said: Just checked my 40k app,,Mournghoul still showing at 400 points. They reverted all the points back. There were a few days where the "updated" FW points were showing up in the app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 They reverted all the points back. There were a few days where the "updated" FW points were showing up in the app. So no drama then? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdkinker Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 42 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said: So no drama then? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk We'll see what they end up coming out with. Already been a bit of drama... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 So no drama then? Only from the folks who took the 280 points seriously and built their new personal meta around that mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 14 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said: Only from the folks who took the 280 points seriously and built their new personal meta around that mistake. I can't imagine how someone processes that change whole cloth without questioning if something else was changing or if it was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillagoreFaceslasha Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 It's back to normal: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/aos_matched_play_points.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 55 minutes ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said: It's back to normal: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/aos_matched_play_points.pdf Awww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillagoreFaceslasha Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 29 minutes ago, Killax said: Awww Someone must tell FW that april's fools was more than a month ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 9 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said: Someone must tell FW that april's fools was more than a month ago. Im looking forward to them doing it again soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 The points for the EGDs are way off. They should be closer to: Nurgle 360 Slaanesh 380 Tzeentch 320 Khorne 400. The Tzeentch one is ridiculous - 180 points for one more wound; and a 3+ save - while having a worse melee profile (no -2 rend) and being unable to fit into any Battalions. The Khorne one is significantly weaker than a Stardrake (Drakesworn Templar). The Warpgnaw Verminlord looks about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I did think adding points would have enthused me to finally get round to painting my Exalted Bloodthirster - sadly at 500 points, it's not really worth it with the warscroll they have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infernalslayer Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Indeed the Exalted Greater Daemons' points are dissapointing. Mazarall is also more expensive that he should be and Scaarac still stands up at 500 points!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 It is what it is is, honestly though due to costs involved I personally have a slight preforance to FW stuff not being an auto include like Sayl has become. Forge World has some good designs and some poor ones. It's quite rare for them to really hit the mark exactly. So far there are actually very few examples of "Monsters" that should severly bypass the 400 point mark, because of that I dont dissagree with @Nico's cost suggestions. In the case of Mazarall it really feels to me like, I'd give him a go at 320-340, you can thake that shaven points off and dump it on top of Sayl to test him at 180. This way, Sayl and some other units that are 160 go from close to "easy inclusion" to "medium to hard inclusion". This is missing the mark only by a fraction but you do notice it. Same applies for Wrathmongers and Blightnights who are perfectly okay in their 180 point world. Pull them to 160 and suddenly the game will always include them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Hmm… I think 380 for the Slaanesh one would be too little, only a 36% increase over the KoS (though granted, the KoS may be a little over-pointed in the first place). What they had was about a 70% increase, which is a little excessive but closer to the mark imo. I mean, you're getting at least a 38% increase in melee hitting power (with better average rend), a 50% increase in wounds even against mortal wounds, a base 125% increase in effective wounds against rend "-". With a couple of easy buffs you can get it to a 2+ re-rollable save, which is something the regular KoS can't get. It could maybe be around 420pts, that would be a 50% increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Maybe there is a "Realm of Resin" where forgeworld resin models get to reroll save rolls of 1... like the old Realm of Metal rules from the Warhammer World Newsletter ... maybe that might help those poor poor resin models ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 I'm a great believer in 'AoS capitalism' - that is let the 'market' decide/guide the points. If a unit becomes an auto-include, then chances are it is underpointed - Sayl is a good example. If it is such an incredibly popular unit, then increase it's points by 10% and then review it's use in 6 months time. If it's still an auto-include, then increase by another 10% and so on until you still see some being used (I'd hate to point a unit out of existence), but not everyone having one. If a unit is almost never seen at tournaments, then reduce it's points by 10%, e.g. most of the Forgeworld stuff. Then review it's use 6 months later and adjust again if necessary. Strangely enough by this logic I think the Mournghul is probably pointed about right - it's not an auto include, most death armies don't have one, and there is the occasional list with 2 in it, so seems about right to me. The only unit without hope is the Squig Gobba, which you would be hard pressed to justify even at 10 points! That's probably why I'm building 2 at the moment - some people are just contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunkhouseBuster Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 17 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said: I'm a great believer in 'AoS capitalism' - that is let the 'market' decide/guide the points. If a unit becomes an auto-include, then chances are it is underpointed - Sayl is a good example. If it is such an incredibly popular unit, then increase it's points by 10% and then review it's use in 6 months time. If it's still an auto-include, then increase by another 10% and so on until you still see some being used (I'd hate to point a unit out of existence), but not everyone having one. If a unit is almost never seen at tournaments, then reduce it's points by 10%, e.g. most of the Forgeworld stuff. Then review it's use 6 months later and adjust again if necessary. Strangely enough by this logic I think the Mournghul is probably pointed about right - it's not an auto include, most death armies don't have one, and there is the occasional list with 2 in it, so seems about right to me. The only unit without hope is the Squig Gobba, which you would be hard pressed to justify even at 10 points! That's probably why I'm building 2 at the moment - some people are just contrary. I like your thinking, and that seems to be what GW is doing going forward. However, in the case of Forge World stuff, it's not entirely a matter of auto-/never-include. Between conversion rates and high shipping costs, it is hard for some players to even afford models. Here in the USA, I can find, online, several websites that sell GW products at about 15% off of MSRP. Add that discount on top of a Start Collecting bundle or Battleforce, and that is an effective way to get more models for less money. That is not an option for Forge World stuff. I purchased some models through Reaper's Bones 3 Kickstarter back in 2015, and they just came in (2 years of waiting for models... ugh!) and I hope to use some of the large monsters as Forge World equivalents in my local shop. Until I got a chance to look at those and realize that they might work for AoS, I had never given any thought to the points values of Forge World's models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Dragon Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Yeah @BunkhouseBuster, I'm looking at it with a UK-centric view. Though even here in the UK Forgeworld models are not cheap - It cost me about GB£105 for the 2 Squig Gobbas including postage. I'm guessing they would be rather more expensive in the USA. So you are right there is an extra dimension beyond pure points values that will determine how many Forgeworld models get fielded. However, I know of lots of players here in the UK who, like me, have large collections of Forgeworld models that they are dying to take to events if they had justifiable points. We are not wanting them to be cutting edge must-have units, just that they are usable, rather than a handicap as they are currently. I know that pandering to players who already have the models will cut no ice with the business guys at Forgeworld - they are all about selling new models because that's what the company is for. But if other players get to see the Forgeworld models being fielded regularly, and see how awesome they look that is surely a brilliant, and free, method of advertising. Word of mouth is such a strong sales technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunkhouseBuster Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, Soup Dragon said: I know that pandering to players who already have the models will cut no ice with the business guys at Forgeworld - they are all about selling new models because that's what the company is for. But if other players get to see the Forgeworld models being fielded regularly, and see how awesome they look that is surely a brilliant, and free, method of advertising. Word of mouth is such a strong sales technique. Indeed. They want to sell models, and that is their business model (lol). But there can also be something said for increasing demand on older models by making them "preferable" options on the tabletop. I get the feeling that the points costs provided by Forge World are not as thought out as the ones provided by the General's Handbook for the GW kits, and I sure don't know the amount of communication that goes on between the two entities. I mean, the Mournghul model has been out for a while, as have most of the Monstrous Arcanum models. I think the most recent one released was the Dread Saurian a couple years back. I am curious as to how they might use points costs to affect sales in the future. I am also curious as to the sales numbers for the Forge World kits, in particular their AoS line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Forgeworld can't afford to become mainstream. Two reasons: They don't have the manufacturing capacity. It removes the cachet of the brand, and it just becomes "ordinary". They ran into the issue several years back trying to "mainstream" the forgeworld line on the 40k side and it was not a pleasant sight from an end product standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trout Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said: They ran into the issue several years back trying to "mainstream" the forgeworld line on the 40k side and it was not a pleasant sight from an end product standpoint. Can you elaborate on that for those who weren't into the hobby back then? How did they attempt to mainstream the Forgeworld line and what were these unpleasant results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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