model proxies in touraments

[Kaleb Daark]

14 hours ago, Gauche said:

I don't like proxies in competitive play, conversions are fine. A lot of what people describe in here are conversions. Proxying to me is taking 10 Elves and saying they're Chaos Warriors. Conversions are taking 10 Elves, giving them axes and green-stuffing their armor to be bulky and runed, then calling them Chaos Warriors.

In the scenario the OP presents I'd personally be against using the LotR model as a mammoth, but not against using it as a basis for a conversion. Just matters how much effort you put in I suppose. :]

This.

Precisely this.  I doesn't matter that those elves had time effort and vision put into them, rather than well I've got these elves so they'll do,

6 hours ago, Arkiham said:

I do normally just purchase the original models, but as mentioned early on this is out of production and the remaining ones are ebay only for £400/500.

Which is an entire army.

Absolutely, I totally agree - and I've seen the one you're talking about, and there's no guarantee that that's a recast- so I would do exactly the same thing if I hadn't got the chaos war mammoth.  I actually really like both models.  However if someone plonked a razorgor with a lollystick howday and a marauder in it and said "war mammoth" I'd get the hump.

13 hours ago, Criti said:

This is not constructive,  nor particularly clever.  In fact,  it doesn't make much sense at all - at least not as if pertains to the topic. 

...

Criti, I can give an example at a throne of skulls many years ago.  If you're ever at WHW ask nick Baynton if he remembers the event.

A daemon player had essentially a starter battalion box.  the rest of the army was sausages of greenstuff with faces , and painted in reds, greens, blues etc.  Apparently they were "aquatic" themed.   iirc the staff offered the guy to go buy some models and play with unpainted or if that wasn't an option to pack up and go home.   Bit like a necron player bringing a packet of croissants to counts as doomscythes spam or whatever they are as its cheaper than buying six of the things.

Also many of the models by scibor and mierce are gorgeous and a fraction of the price, sure we cant use them in GW events but hell they're stunning sculpts and in an independent event I'd happily use one and have done - but again we're back to it being pretty obvious what it is and what the intent is.

Monsters especially are something that GW actually lets itself down on quite a lot compared to some of the competition and its sad as with their production capability there should be no excuse for sloppy modelling or unimaginative sculpting, but that's for another thread.

[ZealousJ]

I'm curious as to what people think of proxies involving little conversion because the models are preferred.

For example I was planning on using mournfang as counts as razorgors. I can think of a fair few older models that are just asking to be replaced by newer models .

[Teletomas]

2 hours ago, ZealousJ said:

I'm curious as to what people think of proxies involving little conversion because the models are preferred.

For example I was planning on using mournfang as counts as razorgors. I can think of a fair few older models that are just asking to be replaced by newer models .

 

I'm using Fenris Wolves counts as Dire wolves. Dire wolves are just to0 ugly of a sculpt to take into my home, sorry. Not a single conversion to them, but they are both wolves, so... come on, I dare anyone to criticize!.

On the other hand, you only get 5 fenris wolves for the price of 10 dire wolves, so in the economic approach to judging your opponents army, fenris wolves are twice as good! I paid more than you did for your models...... But does anyone really judge opponents armies on the PRICE they paid for it, and not the look/conversion/imagination? That to me, seems very unimaginative..

[Lucio]

I'm a heavy convertor, I use whatever parts and base miniatures that give the feel of the army that I want. To use them effectively it must be clear to your opponent what each miniature is.

For example, any conversions along the same theme always represent the same in-game statistics, weapon options must be distinct, muscians, champions etc stand out.

[CoffeeGrunt]

4 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Also many of the models by scibor and mierce are gorgeous and a fraction of the price

Yeah no. Mierce are at least as expensive as GW, if not much more for comparable products, though their quality is easily worth it. Scibor seem to be competitive on pricing though, but are also very limited in scope.

[Galas]

Mierce is the Ferrari of Monsters in 28mm scale just as Kingdom Death is the Mordekaiser Numero Uno UEUEUEUEU of Board dungeon-crawler games.

But that quality has a cost! 

One that I can't pay  :sadface: :sadface:

[CoffeeGrunt]

I've only bought one of their miniatures, Aglaeca Dreaguth from the Wiht range, and the quality is simply astounding.

[Kaleb Daark]

3 hours ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Yeah no. Mierce are at least as expensive as GW, if not much more for comparable products, though their quality is easily worth it. Scibor seem to be competitive on pricing though, but are also very limited in scope.

True in comparison to GW but against FW prices they're quite reasonable if not slightly under I thought.   I bought the Chaagmuth the Jaw-Taker and it's just as you say, astounding... and I weep at the chimera, now that's a proper chimera.

[GRex]

On 3/4/2017 at 1:14 PM, Arkiham said:

i ask mainly as i kinda want to use a mumak for a chaos war mammoth.

If this is a problem you are playing with the wrong people lol.

I think as long as your proxies are WYSIWYG (GW product line debateable) I don't think there should be any issues.

[deynon]

17 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

True in comparison to GW but against FW prices they're quite reasonable if not slightly under I thought.   I bought the Chaagmuth the Jaw-Taker and it's just as you say, astounding.

Scibor and cheap doesn't suit.  And I speak as someone who bought a lot of their bases for my GW models and some pads. I'm crazy fan of GW terminators so they're quite modified.

 

Anyway... the proxies are never wellcome, but what really change the appreciation is when is proxies and when a conversion. For example I created for my fantasy army the : "death rooms" ; rectangular movement bases woth different themes to represent models, usually skeòlies and zombies cause I wanted to personalize my army. Other times I simply act small cpnversion as a mephiston whom I cut the plasma gun and created a closed scroll cause I loved the model and the upgraded it with spirits around cause a vampuric piwer durong SoC campaign. Always for my deah army I bought the aelves swordmasers to represent those who had great weapon and closed the open elm, created a specific standard battle ti reoresent subjugated undead spirits and so apply also to goblins mixed to my zombies fillers (dwarves too). Cause not only humans where resurracted.

For example my great proxies where the old dire wolves who I refused to by and I bought the goglins version: perfectly similar, different only in the head (a luttle smaller). I realized a fog base to personilize. 

The same for the old black knight, I always never appreciated them, so I used imperial one little modified (just exited the new ones and I bougnt 3 boxes of the new ones cause I liked them. 

If someone saw my army never said me it was a proxy one, but converted one, but the limot is a bit unclear.

I think it's the mentality and the way you pose a model to determine. If you only want to recycle it without theming in the army it's pretty like to be a proxy;if you try to convert and blend it in the army, even only by a painting is different. Moreover I think a real conversion doesn't have to take gain from it as being smaller than the original one.

But the limit is always quite flebile

[MrCharisma]

7 hours ago, Teletomas said:

I'm using Fenris Wolves counts as Dire wolves. Dire wolves are just to0 ugly of a sculpt to take into my home, sorry. Not a single conversion to them, but they are both wolves, so... come on, I dare anyone to criticize!

1

I wouldn't have an issue with this. Heck, I've thought about using the Space Wolves that ride on the giant Wolves, and putting the old Empire Knights of the White Wolf on top to use as Demigryphs.

I think what really is in question is the competitive advantage type proxies.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, GRex said:

If this is a problem you are playing with the wrong people lol.

I think as long as your proxies are WYSIWYG (GW product line debateable) I don't think there should be any issues.

My group doesn't care, but if I wanted to take that same list to a tournament.  The TOs might

[Siegfried VII]

20 hours ago, roberto said:

You are not being insulted.  You choose to take offense.

Whether a person should feel insulted or not is a totally subjective matter and as such your point is invalid here.

And for the third time I just said my personal opinion on the matter. You don't have to like it or agree with me and I'm not looking to force my views on you or others.

So let's agree that we disagree and be both happy with our views.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You personal opinion was that people who don't spend as much money on their army are less valid, I called you out on it, you got insulted. You're free to your opinion, but conversely, others are free to contest it.

If you don't want you opinion to be challenged, you probably shouldn't be entering discussions or debates with it. That's kinda the point.

[Siegfried VII]

11 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

You personal opinion was that people who don't spend as much money on their army are less valid, I called you out on it, you got insulted. You're free to your opinion, but conversely, others are free to contest it.

If you don't want you opinion to be challenged, you probably shouldn't be entering discussions or debates with it. That's kinda the point.

No you assumed that this was my personal opinion (which is not the case) and I  have already replied to you on this. Also I was not insulted by you or anyone else in this topic. You again assume that and it is not the case.

The topic of this discussion is really a matter of personal opinion, there is no right or wrong and it is not a matter of rules when in the end one side will be right and the other wrong. The original poster asked for the views of other members of the forum on the matter and I gave mine. Simple as that.

Agree or dissagree but please do not misrepresent my views and words.

 

 

[deynon]

41 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Whether a person should feel insulted or not is a totally subjective matter and as such your point is invalid here.

And for the third time I just said my personal opinion on the matter. You don't have to like it or agree with me and I'm not looking to force my views on you or others.

So let's agree that we disagree and be both happy with our views.

A question. If I spend more money  than the original model to modify one cause I don't like it. So... am I still inhadeguae or it's you now that are insulting me cause you didn't spend so much as me?

As motivation is quite silly.

 

[Siegfried VII]

29 minutes ago, deynon said:

A question. If I spend more money  than the original model to modify one cause I don't like it. So... am I still inhadeguae or it's you now that are insulting me cause you didn't spend so much as me?

As motivation is quite silly.

 

I'll give an example:

If I go to a tournament and use the battalion of the bonesplitaz with the archers to kick ass and instead of using the proper models I use simple arrer boyz because they are cheper without making any conversion then the way I see it, it's insulting to the people that saved money and got the proper models.

If one makes a proper conversion that makes clear what the model is and put effort to it it's a different case.

 

[AlexHarrison]

7 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I'll give an example:

If I go to a tournament and use the battalion of the bonesplitaz with the archers to kick ass and instead of using the proper models I use simple arrer boyz because they are cheper without making any conversion then the way I see it, it's insulting to the people that saved money and got the proper models.

If one makes a proper conversion that makes clear what the model is and put effort to it it's a different case.

 

How is it insulting? Not everyone can afford new models? I don't see how it's insulting in any form. Have you considered that persons circumstances? I don't see how an Orc boy with a bow is any different to a bone splitter orc with a bow. It isn't like he is taking the mick and using a sword and shield human as an arrow bow orc (which is wrong might I add). As long as you can clearly see what the model represents, I don't see it being an issue, and being fussy over not saving the correct sum of money is insulting to those who cannot afford such an expensive hobby, but wish to be apart of it.

[deynon]

13 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I'll give an example:

If I go to a tournament and use the battalion of the bonesplitaz with the archers to kick ass and instead of using the proper models I use simpla arrer boyz because they are cheper without making any conversion then the way I see it, it's insulting to the people that saved money and got the proper models.

I one makes a proper conversion that makes clear what the model is and put effort to it it's a different case.

 

it's always reòated to every single case. For example I refused to buy old blacl knight and dire wolves cause I didn't like them, and playing undad I was full of fillers both economic and majestic... so wpuld you have taken offence from my army? Cause it seems so... 

When I had balestreers skeletons I modified them creatin by myseòf the balestrees, and didn't exist the model of them.

See the blood knoghts, they are heavy priced, I refuse to buy them, but I'm able to put on the field models to represent then that are even more expensive with the sum of the pieces.

So... I'm offending you or exhalting You can't simply base your consideration on the money used. If I buy something discpunted or gifted... I spend less than you even with the same models, I would still offending you?

It's a silly thing.

One want to use those archers ok, but they have to be distinguishable from the ither ones. 

You know, in a TO you could be answered: I'm here to play and show whose the strongest, not who has the more money.  In fantasy I've seen tons of armies only playin on movement bases with a paeper on in TOs only cause you neeedn't the models to show. Or even simply primered black armies. Or 3 colors? OK. Black is a color, a bit of metal on the swords and another color to some place of the miniatures.

Or simply cloned moneds?

Do we want to talk about 4th edition o other edition both 40k and fantasy when TOs placed pieces of papers on the table with written: wood, height X, and so on? Or the Tos lament the necessity to redo the scenic elements cause there has been the change in realistic view for everything? 

I play since a lot of years and I've seenn both sublime examples and hell onese.

It's useless to say: I spend more money so I'm right. I can clearly say you that I can both modify and create new models spending more than you and at the same time realize new models with scraping ones and anyway gain quite a lot of complimets cause the nice view of my models. 

Spending more money is not something to be proud or to condemn and it's not a justification of their own reasons.

I don't find use cheaper models to be something to condemn. You can lament, it's your right, but at the same timeyou can't take it at heart.

Every case it's its own, so not make it general.

Maybe it's cause I find myself in the middle. I'm the first to try to keep the maximum from the models and at the same time to charcterize. And I'm quite addicted to use magnets to do so. So... I should be insulting you or being a step over you?

It's not so definite in this case.

[Gaz Taylor]

++ Mod Hat On ++

Folks, please play nice. We all enjoy this hobby and the different aspects of it and this should be about fun. 

++ Mod Hat Off ++

On a personal note, I do not have an issue with Proxying and have done it myself in the past. But with the openness of what you can take in Age of Sigmar, it can get confusing. For example in days of the world that was, I had a Daemon army and used Chaos Warhounds as Flesh Hounds. Wasn't an issue then as you couldn't take Warhounds in the army. Now you can under the Chaos Alliance, so to me as long as it's clear what the model is, it's ok.

As for special characters, I also think it should be the model if there is one. I have no issues with that model being converted but I think if you are taking that character to do X, you should use the actual model.

[Siegfried VII]

I have no quarrel witn anyone.

I will just say that I meant in no way that money makes right. Perhaps since english is not my native language what I said came out in the wrong way, perhaps some of the guys can't understand... it doesn't matter anymore...

I won't make any other post in the topic. Peace and love to all.

[Kaleb Daark]

so now that we've got that sorted, help me out here... I really dislike the god awful khorne farmers in dungarees known as the skullreapers - what can I use or convert instead of them - must be GW just incase I want to rock up at warhammer world, otherwise I'd probably look to the Darklands Mierce stuff for inspiration.

 

[Gaz Taylor]

38 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

so now that we've got that sorted, help me out here... I really dislike the god awful khorne farmers in dungarees known as the skullreapers - what can I use or convert instead of them - must be GW just incase I want to rock up at warhammer world, otherwise I'd probably look to the Darklands Mierce stuff for inspiration.

 

I would probably go down the conversion route and do a simple head swap. Model is still quite clear what it is, and this should change the look of the model quite dramatically. You might get away using Squig heads and have them as some sort of horrible monsters

[Knight-Errant]

So that is my Lord Celestant, he has no cloak but he throws his shield like Captain America and he gets the same attacks with his Lance lol........I may add a hammer at his belt, when i got one.

[Arkiham]

7 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

++ Mod Hat On ++

Folks, please play nice. We all enjoy this hobby and the different aspects of it and this should be about fun. 

++ Mod Hat Off ++

On a personal note, I do not have an issue with Proxying and have done it myself in the past. But with the openness of what you can take in Age of Sigmar, it can get confusing. For example in days of the world that was, I had a Daemon army and used Chaos Warhounds as Flesh Hounds. Wasn't an issue then as you couldn't take Warhounds in the army. Now you can under the Chaos Alliance, so to me as long as it's clear what the model is, it's ok.

As for special characters, I also think it should be the model if there is one. I have no issues with that model being converted but I think if you are taking that character to do X, you should use the actual model.

is your mod hat that fluffy thing in your profile pic?