model proxies in touraments

[Arkiham]

so, whats the general rule with these? obviously gw stuff for gw events but for other events whats peoples views?

would lord of the rings stuff be ok for warhammer? as some of those models look great.

i ask mainly as i kinda want to use a mumak for a chaos war mammoth.

[KHHaunts]

 I think in those instances its fine. Especially since its GW. Ive noticed that people only seem to care if you proxy purely for convenience.

For instance if you assemble a mortarh as arkhan. Paint him like arkhan and equip him with arkhans weapons people get quite funny if you suddenly say you want it to be mannfred.

However if you convert something purposly for instance i used a wight king kitted him with a scythe and sword and use him as a proxy for.mannfred to suit my army aesthetic.

Or even taking it even further something random like  royal sphinx and lich priest as a arkhan proxy if u converted 8t for that purpose.

 

[HeadHunter]

I'm OK with "counts-as" so long as it clearly visibly counts as that model or unit.  And if you're proxying more than one of the same kind of model or unit, the proxies should be the same thing too.  Do't use a bunch of different things and tell me they all count as "this kind of model/unit".  

[Kaleb Daark]

I cant see it being a problem especially as the original is way out of production.

I think as a player if you were plonking down a wanna be mammoth when the genuine article was still for sale I'd be a bit miffed, especially if on the next table there was the poor guy who'd shelled out for a proper one, but in this instance I think that it shouldn't be used as a reason to say no.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This is going to be something that will end up being a bit divisive and is probably best discussed with your local gaming group. My group errs towards proxies and creativity a lot more than most seem to, though it's worth noting the difference between a proxy model that clearly has effort and a creative vision applied to it, and a coke can drop pod. As long as when challenged you can explain what it represents and how you interpreted it, all but the most pedantic player will typically be okay with it.

 

[roberto]

58 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

I think as a player if you were plonking down a wanna be mammoth when the genuine article was still for sale I'd be a bit miffed,

WOW.

Half the fun of tournaments is ogling innovative armies.   As long as the model does not create confusion, there's no reason to have it ruin your day.

[Galas]

Only if you paint it to match the apropiate Chaos God colours.

[Kaleb Daark]

12 minutes ago, roberto said:

WOW.

Half the fun of tournaments is ogling innovative armies.   As long as the model does not create confusion, there's no reason to have it ruin your day.

Ok I'll rephrase that original line.  Innovative is very cool, awesome conversions, great counts as, amazing paint work etc.  What I was getting at was more perhaps someone who was trying to just be cheap.  There's always the somebody who will  use 'counts as' as a reason to take advantage of rules but not to use his imagination to make an inspiring conversion or to use a very cheap model out of his arsenal - perhaps like using an unconverted stonehorn say without any effort spent on attempting to take it away from that which it is - and in so doing just confusing the hell out of everyone at the tournament.

 

I Arkiham's case, the LoTR mamuk would work really well with minimal chaosification, but it would be very clear what it was intended to be.

[roberto]

42 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

more perhaps someone who was trying to just be cheap.  There's always the somebody who will  use 'counts as' as a reason to take advantage of rules but not to use his imagination to make an inspiring conversion or to use a very cheap model out of his arsenal

Ah.  Thanks for the clarification.  Like if a chaos player were to slap a loaf of whole-grain bread on the table and claim it's a Glottkin.  Or worse still, a loaf of WHITE bread, as it's cheaper.  It might be interesting though, if he were to take a bite from it every time it took a wound...of course, the cheap git would only be doing that for summoning purposes later in the tournament.  Round five,  there'd be nurglings everywhere.  If our frugal friend would have splurged on the whole-grain, he might have been able to produce a very cost-effective Great Unclean One, complete with it's own "cloud of flies".

Imagine what a thrifty "Khorne" player might accomplish.   

[Gauche]

I don't like proxies in competitive play, conversions are fine. A lot of what people describe in here are conversions. Proxying to me is taking 10 Elves and saying they're Chaos Warriors. Conversions are taking 10 Elves, giving them axes and green-stuffing their armor to be bulky and runed, then calling them Chaos Warriors.

In the scenario the OP presents I'd personally be against using the LotR model as a mammoth, but not against using it as a basis for a conversion. Just matters how much effort you put in I suppose. :]

[Criti]

1 hour ago, roberto said:

Ah.  Thanks for the clarification.  Like if a chaos player were to slap a loaf of whole-grain bread on the table and claim it's a Glottkin.  Or worse still, a loaf of WHITE bread, as it's cheaper.  It might be interesting though, if he were to take a bite from it every time it took a wound...of course, the cheap git would only be doing that for summoning purposes later in the tournament.  Round five,  there'd be nurglings everywhere.  If our frugal friend would have splurged on the whole-grain, he might have been able to produce a very cost-effective Great Unclean One, complete with it's own "cloud of flies".

Imagine what a thrifty "Khorne" player might accomplish.   

This is not constructive,  nor particularly clever.  In fact,  it doesn't make much sense at all - at least not as if pertains to the topic. 

Back on topic, though - I'm going to mirror a sentiment mentioned already.  Are we talking abut true PROXY, or COUNTS AS?

PROXY is taking a completely different model and telling me to use my imagination (subbing in 40k Terminators for Stormcast, for example).

COUNTS AS is taking something comparable in size and armament to the original and using it instead... utilizing a Hordes Archangel as a Carmine Dragon.  Using a Reaper Bones Giant as a Gargant.  

So I would not have a direct problem with something like a Mumak serving as a Chaos Mammoth (in a tournament - for regular use in a local shop, well my opinions in that are well documented elsewhere.)  I would however, ask that you put in the effort to convert it on some way.  The Mumak doesn't look very Chaos-like and I firmly believe this is a hobby in which we should consider whether or not an average opponent's visual enjoyment of the game would be affected.  After all,  if he or she took the time to have an army that looked like an army,  rather than most of an army and 1 oddball component - then you should have the same consideration. 

And if your response to the idea that the average opponent's aesthetic opinion matters is the kneejerk "it's my army.  I'll build it how I want" level of offense, perhaps you should consider a hobby with less human interaction.

I suggest beekeeping.  Or amateur grave digging. 

[roberto]

4 minutes ago, Criti said:

And if your response to the idea that the average opponent's aesthetic opinion matters is the kneejerk "it's my army.  I'll build it how I want" level of offense, perhaps you should consider a hobby with less human interaction.

I suggest beekeeping.  Or amateur grave digging. 

If what someone fields opposite you bothers you THAT much, perhaps you should consider ex-lax.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

Interestingly, it used to be that you couldn't mix LoTR and Warhammer models at GW due to licensing deal between GW and whoever owns the LoTR IP.  I imagine that it is still the same.

[MrCharisma]

My personal preference is that my opposition should have extensively converted a model in proxy. 

I spent a decent amount of money to get a legit ForgeWorld Carmine Dragon. I'd hate if every Order player bought some random Dragon, slapped it red, and called it a Carmine. 

[Galas]

Wait. Did you people don't buy things because you love how they look? Did the fact that other people use X rules, that probably in less than 4 years will be useless, with a much less beautiful and impresive model (And cheaper, ok) than you do, really upset you? 

 

I'm totally on board with the "At least put effort to make a cool conversion". As a narrative player, inmersion is the key. But I always see how "money" is put on the table in this kind of debates. And to me, it still sound as absurd to me as it did 15 years ago. No one said anything to me with the Krells miniatures (I actually had 5: Green, Blue, Purple, Red, Black. I just love the guy. 0 conversion. To me, the perfection make model) that for years has commanded my chaos army with every rule in existence, even impersonating Archaon, Sigvald, etc... because Krell was cheaper that those models. 

(Obviously I understand the point of clarity in competitive tournament. As I said, I'm a narrative player)

Is this a hobby of imagination, love and effort put into little or not so little plastic pieces... or a hobby of who has more money? (Yeah yeah, Miniature wargaming isn't cheap yada yada. Thats not my point)

[Ollie Grimwood]

probably not in GW competitions as mentioned earlier because of the legal reasons (and the Tolkien estate are very protective ) unless anyone has heard they've been lifted. 

Indepedant tournaments are gernerally much more relaxed, but I'd still do a bit a work to make it AoSified, at the least swap out the crew as the LoTR ones will look far too small in comparison to Warhammer ones.

[Siegfried VII]

I must say I'm against proxies and count as. Some conversions are ok but otherwise there are many times where proxies and count as are used by people who are not willing to part with the money to get the original models.

I am against this and I feel it is a bit insulting to people who bought the actual models they need for their army.

Especially in the tournament scene I feel that not allowing proxies can also aid in limiting the very broken spam x unit lists...

For me using proxies can kill the fun for me as having a model/models in the enemy army that may or may not slightly represent the actual model ruins my fantasy immersion in the world of the game...

Of course it is just my personal opinion and as long your opponent agrees, you can do anything you like.

[CoffeeGrunt]

A bit elitist to imply that an army that spends less money is somehow morally inferior. If using a £60 model is somehow cheaping out to you, then we have very different budgets and freedom to spend. 

I'd say that with some good green stuff work to give it fur, shaving off the extra pair of tusks and redesigning the howdah a bit, most people would know what it is immediately. 

[Arkiham]

I do normally just purchase the original models, but as mentioned early on this is out of production and the remaining ones are ebay only for £400/500.

Which is an entire army.

[Siegfried VII]

6 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

A bit elitist to imply that an army that spends less money is somehow morally inferior. If using a £60 model is somehow cheaping out to you, then we have very different budgets and freedom to spend. 

I did not say that nor did I imply it and I was not talking about any specific models/examples. My salary is 635 euros so this hobby is on the expensive side for me but I do my best and save money to buy the original models.

As said above if I bring on the table LotR orcs and use them as Ironjawz in my opinion it will not be fair for the guys that saved up money and went to get the proper models. I can perhaps tolerate it in a casual game on the premise that the guys has already the model on the painting lab or is planning to get it soon, but in a tournament I like to see the proper models and painted.

Other than that as I said I like to dive into the world of any game I'm playing, so I like to see the proper miniatures to represent the prpper models. Now if a conversion that is proper and actually is very similar to the original model and is based on the company range I have no quarel with.

Again just my personal opinion.

[CoffeeGrunt]

The problem with that is that the GW miniatures have never and will never fully represent the breadth of the fluff. Hence their loose approach to counts as and proxying, as well as their kits being designed for variety. 

Being pedantic about the exact troop model is for historical games. It makes no sense in a sandbox like AoS. 

[roberto]

1 hour ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Being pedantic about the exact troop model is for historical games. It makes no sense in a sandbox like AoS. 

^^^^^

THIS

It's a game.  I'd rather play  against someone who proxies olives as skaven slaves, who had a sense of humor, than a self-important prig who frowns at the use of non-citadel craft paints on his opponent's army.

[roberto]

3 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

I am against this and I feel it is a bit insulting to people who bought the actual models they need for their army.

 

You are not being insulted.  You choose to take offense.

[Johann]

I think everybody should have fun! 

If somebody does not get the OOP Model or don't like the sculpts from GW (I like most of the models, but some just don't fit the fluff or my aesthetic...) it's totally fine taking another model or a model from another range/producer - I just want to  have a good game and when my opponent feels better with other models, I feel better too.

[VBS]

The Mumak looks much better than the FW Mammoth. I'd add some bitz and green stuff so it blend better with the rest of chaos miniature range and reflects the rules.

Otherwise, I don't understand why one should care what other people use as long as it's clear what the mini represents. That self-important "you have to buy the right mini" attitude discourages creativeness and fun.

Imagine you are no longer allowed to play with your beautifully converted army because some obstinate guy accuses you of not buying the "correct" models (talk about self-righteousness...).