AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[PJetski]

5 hours ago, Malakithe said:

The only thing im seeing as being 'good' is the new standard deathstar of Runefather + HGB. They will be super hard to remove and murder in combat but thats if they ever get into combat due to how slow they are.

Hearthguard spam is dead and that's not a bad thing. Hearthguard are still good and viable, Magmadroths are good and viable, the enhancements are ridiculously good, and Runemasters know every prayer. Even Vulkites don't look that bad.

Auric Hearthguard are lackluster but they become battleline with any PRIEST general (and you'll probably want to run one for High Priest + Ember Storm to reliably run6 + charge Hearthguard) so they'll have a niche as a cheap battleline. Not great, but I guess Fyreslayers aren't meant to have great shooting?

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Not great, but I guess Fyreslayers aren't meant to have great shooting?

Yeah, with the army focus being charge in, burn out your abilities and then heal to burn again the nerfed Magma bolts and lack of Coalitions feel like they’re discouraging any gunlines. 
 

Instead Auric Hearthguard look to be just a quick support that’ll end up a screen or bodyguard that can take advantage of the Rally heals(as they stay out of melee longest while in the 3” sweet spot to protect Fathers & Sons) before they charge into melee.(also remember Hermdar gets them as battleline, so if you’re not min-maxing on sub-factions you can use them priestless)

Also great write-up here with someone’s experiences with them vs Stormcast and then Maggotkin:

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Doko]

Seem interesting but play a new book against someone who dont know the new tricks wont be fair and usually gonna win the new book.

First list of sc and both nurgle list were horribles also

[Baron Klatz]

Yeah it was just some random matches with both going in fresh to show it can be fun.
 

The Bob example from earlier would be if you want top-tier madness of new Fyreslayers beating dragon and raptor tier lists.

[Bonesplitterz]

4 hours ago, Voltek said:

Is there somewhere one can read about the Stormcast vs Fyreslayers French game? That sounds interesting.

I'm wondering how a Greyfyrd will be with 6 foot heroes or 5 and a Runefather on Magmadroth.

https://m.twitch.tv/videos/1416420163

Edited March 7, 2022 by Bonesplitterz

[PJetski]

Can we take repeat mount traits across the army?

[DwarfsOnly]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Can we take repeat mount traits across the army?

No, each trait can only be taken one time.

[flamingwalnut]

Well, the time has come to really dig in and take a look at this. Watched the GMG review and while there are disappointments, there was a chunk I enjoyed. I am NOT a competitive person, so that does help a bit, but here are the take aways for me right now.

- Path to Glory looks fun. Making contracts, bounties, earning gold. It all seems great and definitely a great way to put Fyreslayers into narrative play. Definitely worth poking at. 

- SO many good enhancements. That is kinda fun. I always fall back on Battle Regiment, might have to consider some "Bonus Relic" stuff. With a lodge that does it, might be an easy pick for starters.

- Yeah, Magmadroths/Lofnir DOES look fun. I have yet to actually follow through on a collection to DO the monster spam, but I am closer than I expected with Fyreslayers... Who knows? Definitely worth a shot. 

- Foot heroes and buffs seem like a lot of fun. The idea of Rallying back troops, rotating front lines to keep your bodies full. Fueling Flamekeepers. Sounds amazing....probably will get shot to death and be sad, but that is just an issue that comes from high tier armies all over. Maybe a bit silly, but a cool idea anyways. 

- Grand strategies and Battle Tactics are FUN! Love the Book of Grudges one especially. Definitely need to get me a legit tome to write down all the grudges I am sure I'll accrue...

- Allies look fun! Not only do allied Duardin get potential access to Runes, but the allies are NOT limited TO Duardin. That means you can toss in a Phoenix (thematic), Hurricanum, cavalry, mages, whatever. Lots of cool potential, even if it IS only a small amount of points. Given I already have Cities and adore their conversion potential, this at least leads to cool small hobby projects! 

 

I admit...I could be a LOT more hyped. I do feel a bit...awkwardly cursed? All the armies I've put a good amount of time into have either been nerfed in unfun ways (Slaanesh and now Fyreslayers) or they are just uncertain and hard to get (Cities of Sigmar with Webstore models). BUT...I do still love the Fyreslayers and while the new battletome price HURTS, the army is still cool. I guess the truly worst thing is that I should stay away from tournaments and find fun, weird narrative games to play....which is exactly what I want. Hope you all find joy in your hobby! 

[Gaz Taylor]

7 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Thanks for posting those, they’re much more in-depth than Goonhammer was which made some mistakes or left stuff out in their review.  

No worries 😉

I like their videos as they go into detail and let you know what you could do with it. This one was good as Russ doesn’t play Fyreslayers so you got his real point of view about what they could do. My thoughts are they aren’t point and click but solid if you use them right.

7 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Lastly, rules leaker Bob posted some positive testing of Fyreslayers giving the Stormcast draconiths what for:

“i just don't agree, you are focusing on the bad aspect of the army but i think it's normal. All 2.0 player will have bad reaction to their 3.0 transformation...

I think this is a valid point. Again people expecting more of the same. I like what they are doing by stripping things back as it means it’s not too bloated as a game plus means they can do updates via White Dwarf fairly easily to let people have new ways of playing.

[Doko]

Yes i have tougth about getting a frost fenix as ally and so we get back the old -1 wound,but is hard when every unit is so expensive get that extra 300 points.

I know i have been very negative( and i think this book have been nerfed from old in competitive yet).but i find fun and pretty good but expensive getting two blocks of 15 hearthguard each with one runefather or son with enhacements getting some extra damage with each unit but is hard get that charge everytime with both father and hesrthguards at the same time.

It is as 1200 points only in these two blocks and we need one battlelime more,but also with two fathers is less likely to have both died before can activate the +1 attack.

I guess some vulkite to keep in one objetive doing nothing and maybe one smitter and\or a runemaster to buff the other block and we only have as 400 extra points.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Doko

[DrDemento]

15 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

You definitely CAN get plenty of 2nd rank 32mm bases engaged within 1" by staggering.  Just gotta really measure carefully, which is where little plastic distance templates come in handy.  However when you start bending the ranks around other large bases that's where the 1" range puts coherency in grave jeopardy so you will get less into combat…In the third picture though if you get the inner rank 5mm or so from each other then you can get the outer rank 25mm from the big enemy in the center and less than 25mm from each other. (1 inch is 25.4mm for reference in case you weren't aware).  

Thank you!  This is great!  So, if your front rank is base to base, is there general consensus that the second rank won’t be in range even if snugged in the cracks?   The pics and description indicate you need at least 5mm between front bases for this to work, and maybe more like pick 1 w 20mm spacing in case opponent attempts to keep smaller bases intentionally further away.

is there a sort of agreed upon standard (maybe for tourney play) that mitigates the need to get fiddly with the one in measures?

[DrewGo]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Yes i have tougth about getting a frost fenix as ally and so we get back the old -1 wound,but is hard when every unit is so expensive get that extra 300 points.

I know i have been very negative( and i think this book have been nerfed from old in competitive yet).but i find fun and pretty good but expensive getting two blocks of 15 hearthguard each with one runefather or son with enhacements getting some extra damage with each unit but is hard get that charge everytime with both father and hesrthguards at the same time.

It is as 1200 points only in these two blocks and we need one battlelime more,but also with two fathers is less likely to have both died before can activate the +1 attack.

I guess some vulkite to keep in one objetive doing nothing and maybe one smitter and\or a runemaster to buff the other block and we only have as 400 extra points.

I know this is an incredibly unpopular opinion, but I actually think the points increase for Hearthguard is almost fair given the new Royal Retinue ability. 

The whole strategy with HGB was always having a nearby hero to give them the 4+ ward. This issue before was none of our foot Heroes were all that great. None with great saves, none with a ton of wounds. So you were probably taking AHG to act as their bodyguards to help make them more survivable and keep them from getting shot off the board. 

Obviously the HGB combo with a Hermdar general and a Battlesmith getting Warrior Indominate and +1 save made big blocks of HGB insanely hard to kill. But you still ran into issues if your Heroes got sniped. Obviously that's an issue for tons of armies, but the way to defeat HGB was obvious. Snipe the heroes. So you were kinda forced to bring Aurics as protection, even if they didn't fit into your strategy, and even pre-nerf they weren't great. 

Now with the Royal Retinue ability you give HGB the ability to be the bodyguards. The Runefather or Runeson still gets to make a save roll, then on the damage that does get through, you transfer it to the HGB on a 3+ which is better than the old ability, and now HGB get to make their ward saves. This makes taking AHG as bodyguards redundant, so you don't need em. It's way harder to snipe the dedicated hero for the HGB, and since it's a melee hero anyway you want them to be charging into battle with the HGB and dishing out crazy damage.

Battlesmith lost the +1 to save, but gained the +4 rally ability which is extremely powerful. The additional save was obviously super useful, but the +4 ward always did more work, especially with how many armies can dish out mortals these days. Losing Warrior Indominate hurts, but the new Runefather ability to give a big block of HGB an additional attack makes them hit WAY harder. Especially if you combo it with a good melee rune, which of course you will. 

I think taking Greyfyrd for the extra wounds on foot heroes and extra artifacts can combo extremely well for HGB blocks. I'm not even convinced spamming Greyfyrd HGB is an unplayable list. A Runeson with the Axe of Grimnir is doing massive damage now, and only costs 80 points. Obviously not all of them can have that artifact, but the artifacts are really good now, and you're not trapped into taking a specific one (lets face it Tyrant Slayer wasn't any good). The extra wound goes a long way towards keeping our heroes on the board to buff our troops. 

Here's how I see Fyreslayers now: 

- Not as tanky as before, but a far cry from a squishy horde army. Still very tough, and much easy to bring back, which is something the army never had before.

- Lots of combos to make them hit much harder than before. 

- More viable list building options. (Lofnir, Greyfyrd, Vostarg all seem very playable)

- Require more strategic play than pressing the HGB easy button. 

Look, I'm not fooling myself here. I don't expect Fyreslayers to be dominating tournaments. But I also think the naysayers are all focusing on the good stuff we lost and not looking at the new possibilities. This new tome is adding a lot more options to this army that used to have basically one really good unit and basically nothing else. I'm not sure any of the new combos will be as strong as HGB spam used to be, but I don't think it's a realistic view to say this army was just nerfed into oblivion either. I think competitive lists will absolutely emerge as we all have time to try out different things. 

[Doko]

Yes for sure even if i didnt said it,the list that i tougth with 2bloks of 15hearthguard+father for sure gonna be gryfird,so be harder to kill these fathers and hit harder.

But the choice is the warlord trait,one magma with attack twice or one priest with can do two times one rune,so getting +1 rend two turns.

For sure i would preffer the extra rune,but i would need keep alive the priest for some turns and that gonna be very hard now or imposible if he is on foot

[KnowAnyThryng]

I just crunched some numbers on warscrolls that changed between 2.0 and 3.0 (in cost or abilities/stats). This excludes support heroes as their abilities are hard to quantify. Note that this is damage in combat only and defensive abilities only look at wound per cost change (as the saves are basically the same across the board) 

Efficiency is total point cost divided by total damage output in 1 combat phase based wholly on their warscroll. Lower is better, differential was calculated comparing old vs new efficiency. This does not include ranged damage... so expect a minor increase in efficiency (maybe 1-3% increase) across the board due to throwing axe buff for new 3.0 warscrolls. 

 

Runeson Magma

26% increase Offensive pt efficiency

14% decrease Defensive pt efficiency

12% net increase in efficiency   Runefather Magma 15% increase pt efficiency in combat output (31% for 1 turn when using +1 atk ability) 10% decrease in pt efficiency in defensive ability 5% net increase in effiency (21% for 1 turn)

 

Runefather foot

6% increase O efficiency (31% for 1 turn)

20% decrease in D efficiency

-14% net efficency (+11% for 1 turn)     Runeson foot 65% increase in O efficiency Same D efficency  +65% net efficency   HGBZ 16% reduce in O efficiency 16% reduce in D efficiency 16% reduction in total pt efficency (do note that it is MUCH easier to keep runseon/father on foot alive to keep ward going, but harder due to wholy within so I call that a wash) Vulkite axe 30% reduce in O efficency (4% increase on charge) 6% reduction in D efficiency 36% reduction in total   Vulkite Shield 48% reduction in O efficiency 10% increase in D efficiency 58% reduction in total efficiency   Auric Hearthguard 5-10% increase in efficiency against armored targets (close combat only). Minor range debuff has utility that I couldn't figure out how to calculate. 50% decrease in efficiency against monsters Hard to calculate how much reduction, but given their role was pretty much ONLY to kill monsters lets say they've reduced in efficiency by 40% (maybe 30% if you see any value in movement debuff)

Based on the above, we can see a huge trend reducing defensive efficiency and increasing offensive efficiency for almost all FS heroes. We also see nerfs in overall efficiency across the board for non-hero FS warscrolls. The unit hit least hard by this was hearthguard berzerkers - which are still our most points efficient unit by far both offensively and defensively assuming you keep a hero in range. 

Keep this with a big grain of salt as this is JUST warscrolls. Allegiance abilities overall are better in my mind, ur-gold is definitely better and lofnir is better for sure. Hermdar was almost certainly a bit better for HGBZ heavy builds. in 2.0 however. Magic items are better across the board. Support abilities from heroes are better offensively and worse defensively.

For example, factoring in Lofnir the defensive efficiency of magmas becomes the same instead of a reduction from 2.0 to 3.0. Factoring in Vostarg and offensive efficiency on the charge of vulkites with axes becomes 39% better than vulkites on the charge in 2.0.

If you add in additional offensive capabilities not present in 2.0, such as +1 attack from runefather or the +1 damage from flamekeeper, magic item combos we are looking at damage potential that simply was not possible in 2.0 tome.

Defensively the army took a significant hit, in particular against regular damage. However, there is now a plethora of ways to get a 5+ or 6+ wardsave... plus an amazing way to keep foot sons and foot fathers alive. Overall I'd say our defensive ability against mortal wounds went up and all other damage went down. Battlesmith is a great defensive hero and flamekeeper great offensive hero if you can keep them alive (which you won't be able to against 90% of competitive lists).

 

Haven't played any games yet, but I think the 3.0 tome encourages a bit more variety in gameplay styles. From what I can see we have an ultra aggressive charge list (vostarg), defensive focused list (HGBZ and foot heroes, Greyfyrd), monster list (lofnir), or combined arms list (grefyrd or vostarg). In 2.0 I don't think we had an aggressive charge list so that is a new playstyle overall that we didn't really have before - I could see a 70 vulkite axe list backed up by several flamekeepers being worth testing out.

 

 

 

 

 

[DrewGo]

36 minutes ago, KnowAnyThryng said:

I could see a 70 vulkite axe list backed up by several flamekeepers being worth testing out.

First, thanks for taking the time to calculate all of this. Really appreciated. 

Second, This Vulkite+Flamekeeper+Battlesmith heavy list is something I am really interested in seeing. 

Vulkites getting 3 attacks each (4 if you use a Runefather's Leader ability), +2 to hit/wound on a charge, fighting again when they die with that improved profile, powering a Flamekeeper, then half of whatever's left getting brought back by the Battlesmith? Combine that with either the -1 Rend or MWs on 6s from the Runes and it's a nasty combo. 

Obviously there's lots of things that have to go right to pull that combo off, but if you're brining 80 of them you'll probably have plenty of opportunities to do it. 

[KnowAnyThryng]

1 hour ago, DrewGo said:

First, thanks for taking the time to calculate all of this. Really appreciated. 

Second, This Vulkite+Flamekeeper+Battlesmith heavy list is something I am really interested in seeing. 

Vulkites getting 3 attacks each (4 if you use a Runefather's Leader ability), +2 to hit/wound on a charge, fighting again when they die with that improved profile, powering a Flamekeeper, then half of whatever's left getting brought back by the Battlesmith? Combine that with either the -1 Rend or MWs on 6s from the Runes and it's a nasty combo. 

Obviously there's lots of things that have to go right to pull that combo off, but if you're brining 80 of them you'll probably have plenty of opportunities to do it. 

Absolutely agree with you here. That list seems the most interesting and fun list style I've been thinking about. Stacking charge range bonuses really helps the vulkites too... they come with 1 via horn, can get 1 from general and can get run/charge from priest chant. Put all of this together with 70-80 vulkites and you will get charges off for sure.

The awesome thing about this list is it gets BETTER the deadlier the opponent is. You charged Archaon and he is going to kill your entire unit after you swing? Awesome, your 10 vulkites now get 82 attacks against him if you triggered runefather ability. that is a lot of 2+ armor saves to make... if you add in rend urgold or mortal wound urgold you have a chance at flat out killing a lot of the god characters out there. This doesn't even include the flamekeeper plus 1 damage... add one of those buffs to the vulkites and you WILL kill god characters on the charge. Just throw so many dice that their save doesn't matter.

Even if you don't get a charge you are still at 62 attacks (with runefather ability if needed) if the super unit kills your whole unit - still able to be buffed via urgold or flamekeeper damage. With new ability you can strike first before superunit, then again on death.

If you take 4 flamekeepers odds are 1 will survive to buff your vulkites and they are only 90 points each.  If you prefer survivability you can take multiple battlesmiths for coverage and rally redundancy.

On top of it all, you end up with nearly 200 wounds in your army... that is a ALOT of wounds to chew through. Especially when you add the 6+ or 5+ ward saves, and rally on 4+, into the mix.  As an old world 6th, 7th and 8th edition fantasy player this makes me happy as it is a deathseeking ball of duardin fury that scales up against the super gods and monsters of the game.

 

[Malakithe]

4 hours ago, DrewGo said:

First, thanks for taking the time to calculate all of this. Really appreciated. 

Second, This Vulkite+Flamekeeper+Battlesmith heavy list is something I am really interested in seeing. 

Vulkites getting 3 attacks each (4 if you use a Runefather's Leader ability), +2 to hit/wound on a charge, fighting again when they die with that improved profile, powering a Flamekeeper, then half of whatever's left getting brought back by the Battlesmith? Combine that with either the -1 Rend or MWs on 6s from the Runes and it's a nasty combo. 

Obviously there's lots of things that have to go right to pull that combo off, but if you're brining 80 of them you'll probably have plenty of opportunities to do it. 

Thats my problem with this...theres too many parts involved. First you have to pray that your opponent doesnt have any magic or any shooting. Flamekeeper and Battlesmith will almost always die in the 1st turn. And then a lot of abilities are one time use on one unit only. One unit will be okay for one fight phase and thats it.  

[PJetski]

The foot heroes are so small you can hide them behind magmadroths

Nulsidian Icon still exists

If theyre shooting your flamekeeper/battlesmith then theyre not shooting your other units. Seems like a good thing 

[DrewGo]

44 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The foot heroes are so small you can hide them behind magmadroths

Nulsidian Icon still exists

If theyre shooting your flamekeeper/battlesmith then theyre not shooting your other units. Seems like a good thing 

This is what I like about the Vulkites list. 

Other than the Rally back, their main bonuses don't come from heroes at all. You don't even have to spend a command point. 3 attacks, +2 to hit/wound, attack on death is coming at you. You wanna spend your shooting/spells killing my Flamekeeper/Battlesmith? Be my guest. 

[Doko]

2 hours ago, PJetski said:

The foot heroes are so small you can hide them behind magmadroths

Nulsidian Icon still exists

If theyre shooting your flamekeeper/battlesmith then theyre not shooting your other units. Seems like a good thing 

?? How hide the heroes behind a magma? At my group and every tournament that i went if enemy see one hair or one spyke of my hero betwen magma legs then see the hero,and is imposible hide 100% a hero behind only one magma foot.

Btw vulkites in paper look good(even amazing in vostarg) but that is if we ignore that they have 33mm base and 1" range,to me they are umplayable in units of 10+ and buff stacking in a msu dont worth it,also battlesmith and flamekepeer wont survive one turn of shooting,so i dont think be playable at competitive level.

And battlesmith rally only can be used out of combat,so if enemy is a shooting army that is where we could use the rally then the smith gonna de sniped,but if enemy havent shooting then we cant use rally because we need disengage a figth after get died,then waste that turn and then enemy gonna charge us again and we wont can use rally never.

Its omly my opinion,but i dont see any use for battlesmith.flamekeeper can be used because havent the HUGE cost of smith so if we loose him it isnt big,and we can use his buff in melle.

Also a ward6 when we have hearthguard,forge,rune etc isnt very good.

I really think that auric could get bodyguard of priests,smith and keeper so they could have one use.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Doko

[Doko]

Btw seems more people testing the book against the meta armys got the same conclusions that i got even before play one game lol

-vulkites havent damage for his cost

-flamekeeper and battlesmith are useless

-magmadroths arent competitives

-foot heroes with hg and retinue are our best unit and also greyfird

 

I gonna copy\paste the post that is in reddit,so credit to who posted it in reddit and not me.

 

Friend and I traded lists and armies in different situations to see how the new book theory crafting was working out. We pinned them against some of the top Metas:

• Legion of the First Prince
• Ironjawz - Bloodtoofs
• Sons of Behemat
• COS - Living Cities (4x Fulminators, Stormdrakes, Irondrakes)
• Daughters of Khaine

Sorry, no SCE (neither of us play them). A waste of testing if you forget things. No LRL because even though I love em, they aren't in the Meta now. But IDK will likely be in it if not top by next month.

We are both had made mock up 3 lists in similar fashion that we alternated playing while the other played an opposing army they well knew. We adjusted the lists between battles as we saw things that weren't working. For timing sake, when things went to ****** by turn 1/2 (and it routinely did), we called it because we knew what was going to happen. But technically ... by doing this we didn't see any late game come backs. Sadly for the FS, there isn't enough cheeky action or movement shenanigans in which what is going to take place on turn 3/4, and those turns are completely predictable for this army.

Some of the results are skewed as we misread a couple of rules. Particularly the Runefather's reincarnation of Lords of the Lodge. For the first few games we assumed this was Once a battle per RF, but that's bad literacy on our part. It's Once per Game, no matter the quantity of RFs. For that reason some games have a bad setup and Bad Turn 2 results.

Ultimately we tried out about 3 different setups with varying degrees of changes as we played:

1. Lofnir - Simply 1 RF on Magma + 5 Runesons on Magmas

Hilarious! For Legion and DOK, it was pretty well done. It almost tabled them turn 1/2. On his using it, he went all out all 6 in your face, which commonly resulted in losing of 2 RSs before they could fight. I would stagger and save Roaring Fyrestream for turn 2. Did a lot better that way. Living Cities, SoB it was as you'd guess - Horribly spectacular. It was funny tying up the 30x of Irondrakes. Basically killed them once they came out and 3x RS went after them. But, Dragons barely survived and that was enough to constantly hold points.

Ultimately our determination of the 6 Magmas Lofnir list was quote "value brand SoB". If you want alpha, then IJ's Mighty Destroyers is king. Only SOB have the Wounds to "full on moron flop" (also a fun quote last night) into the other side.

I feel Lofnir's 6 Magma spam advantage would be better if more MWU were in the meta. Maybe they will be with IDK and Nighhaughts getting a new BT. Saving the Roaring Fyerstream was a lot of damage. But for other big units - we might have more damage for sure, but not enough to clear 30-40 wounds. However it was plenty to mop up Belakor, Kairos and a Bloodthirster in turn 2.

2) Gotrek and Friends - Greyfyrd

Here is where we spent a lot of time. I think ultimately we both agreed on this list by our 4th play:

Warlord: Runefather (General, Leader of Duardazhal, Axe of Grimnir), Runesmiter (Arcane Tome, Prayer of Ash), Battlesmith (Nulsidian Icon), 10x VGBHunters of Hearthland: Grimwrath Berzerker (Daught of Magma Ale), Gotrek Gurnisson, 10x HGB (BA)Other: 10x VGB, 10x HGB

Originally we had 2x Runefathers instead of another VGB, because we thought you could have two uses of LotL, but that was played wrong. And that alone gave some ridiculous skewing on the results.

This lists did okay, not great and I'll get to why even though it won its battles, we weren't willing to say good or great. It won most of the games. Doing the damage and hold out it needed to on SOB and IJs. But did have issues with COS and DOK, but still pulled the win. LoFP was a wash in 2 games. Even with a good amount of anti-spell, it wasn't enough. The summoning just meant the First Prince player controlled the board.

In the 6 games we did with versions of this lists we were so excited about about the Gotrek buff, BUT it didn't matter. Because like all games, no one who knows Gotrek will on purpose engage him. In one game with COS, I thought it was funny so I shot him off the board with 2 rounds of Irondrakes. But that because I was losing anyway.

Here is also where we realized Foot Runefather with an Artifact like Draught or Axe of Grimnir with a HGB retinue is actually better than Gotrek. It's terrifyingly tough and hits like a tank. The Royal Retinue might be the savior of the BattleTome. They can't snipe your General because of bodyguard and this insures the ward on the HGB - AND - More importantly Dauntless Assault is amazing, because now your RF hits like a beast and now your HGB goes right after, EVEN if you used Counter Attack. HGB were a Wall before, but no with the RF, it's a a Death Ball.

Because this list has no natural monsters you have to take Arcane Tome to cast Metamorphosis to gain those fringe VPs.

As well, neither of us really got to see Battlesmith do all his glory. He was always sniped out or IJ/SOB would just barrel for him. One game we agreed to not be Aholes and attacked the VGB and let the Battlesmith do his thing. I mean, it was neat. VGB went down to 3 against a GoreGrunta charge. Battlesmith brought back 4. Neat. But then they died fully.

VGB on there own, not depending on buffs from Battlesmith and Flamekeeper (who we quickly abandoned in our list) did well. Their entire point is to kill something with them before they go and that's perfect. Averaged 6 Wounds before it went. If your opponent tries to avoid charging them thinking that saves them from the Fury + Counter Attack, then instead you charge and get your attack bonus. It's nearly a win/win. We started to theorize that VGB Vostarg spam might be the way to go, BUT honestly in most cases we were trading 20 of our Wounds (VGB) to output 6-7 wounds on them. Sure that goes up a bit with Vostarg, but with armies like IJ or SOB they would just plow through and accept the wounds gracefully and keep hauling at near a dent of damage. In that one case as an example 6x Goregruntas charged them (not with Waaagh or even Violent Fury yet) and near wiped the VGB (and that's important to now because a Waagh and Violet Fury Grunta stack of 3x even would simply just wipe the VGB) and the VGB killed 1 boar, which was going to be sacrificed to Coherency anyway. BS brings back 4, and then it gets obliterated on the next turn. In the end, it didn't technically kill anything, but it tied up that 6 stack for a double turn. Was that worth 170 pts? I didn't think so. But then again, not everything is Goregrunta level of alpha damage. But they are certainly rampant in the meta, so hard to ignore. But then again if I had VF or Waaagh, no VGB to bring back.

So ultimately this list held most of it's games. Gotrek goes unmolested, holds whatever he wants slowly chasing something. HGB with RF are the heroes of the games, lasting through almost any amount of damage and then giving it back beyond compare. BUT ... I couldn't call it "great". Because generally your par per turn on VP is 4 and that's basically what this list gets. Par 4. With arcane tome, you can get that to 5 VPs, but you're commonly unbound. So ... 23 VPs won the matches and would go 4-1 or even possibly 5-0, but at 120 VPs isn't top 10 in a GT. We struggled to see how to get to 150+. That's list the theory craft of list #3.

3) HGB are my Gods - Greyfyrd

I call it "Old School Cool", he called it "You Stubborn Dwarf" list.

Warlord: Runesmiter on Magmadroth (Droth Helm, Prayer of Ash), Runefather (General, Blood of the Berzerker [or Spirit of Grimnir], Axe of Grimnir), Runeson, Runeson, Battlesmith (Nusidian Icon), 10X HGB (PA)Hunters of the Hearthland: Grimwarth (Draught), 15x HGB (BA), 10x HGB (PA)

This was born from seeing the VGB not really do the amount that I wanted and seeing that HGB retinues are a serious problem for most armies to chew through. So RF and 2x RS with full outfits. RF with 15x HGB goes to center, RS with 10x HGB go outsides, Runesmiter and Battlesmith stagger the sides and come help which ever HGB line needs it. Grimwrath for the fun of it.

This was harder to chew through than the #2 list for the opponent. In almost no case was a HGB completely destroyed. Impossible to remove the RF/RS from the stack. And now the Runesmiter on Magma can pick up cheeky points for VPs. In some cases, we found ourselves locked in combat and would decide not to attack with the HGB to save the unit (monster) for the next turn for the Magma to kill. Think of how stupid that is. "I pass". You what? There's 9 HGB right there. "I pass, let's go onto battleshock".

I played it twice, but only fought it once with DOK. You sit there and look at the stacks and go "What am I going for here? What's the biggest threat?" And your answer is '******'.

I sniped the Battlesmith and just started notching the Runesmiter taunting me behind 3 stacks of HGB. I had no answer for the HGB. I spent an entire army trying to kill 1 Runeson 10X HGB stack for Round 3 and was done. The only thing I accomplished was killing the Runesmiter to deny VPs. But as I my friend pointed out, that's driven by spite. You don't play to deny VPs (unless it's game 5 and you can see your opponent is placed #1 and youre #2), you play for your VPs. A loss of 35-34 is meaningless in terms of being a "loss". A win of 24-23 is meaningless if your objective is podium.

#3, though not fully play tested, with using the old Stacking HGB is as it was, formidable. At first I would call it a nerf based on points alone, but the reality is with the Retinue you are near guaranteed Ward protection plus extra damage. The new Runes really do increase your output, but it's mostly that you can't lose your ward guarantee. Or rather it takes a tremendous amount of damage. IE a 6x of Gore Gruntas can right properly remove a 10x HGB stack. Previously as an opponent you just removed the heroes first. So IJ you fly over and charge behind or most shooting armies could do it. NOW - ****** you. Try to chew through 7 wounds on my RF with a 3+ protector and a 4+ ward. Though we didn't play test it, LRL 30x stack Sentinels with Lambent Light could do it. So there ways to snipe him out, just not easy ones.

Grimwrath might be a waste. Give the artifact to a Runeson and get nearly the same result (so long as Runeson is on a monster).

Anything stupid enough to fight your RF + HGB stack is in for a surprise. On the Awaken Steel turn with Lord of Lodge up, a RF with Axe of Grimnir is going to do 9-10 wounds himself. Then the HGB go right after do no joke, 43 damage against a 4+. Even if they stack their saves to a 2+, you are going to output near 30 wounds. Against SOB he move his general on the middle OBJ to which would have given him control but he straight got deaded. 40 wounds was nothing. The mistake was charging me, when he should have just inched onto the OBJ edge via a run.

On the subject of scoring VPs:

Grand Strategies - Guarded Lineage is nearly as good as Hold the Line. BUT, hold the line is still better as far as #3 is concerned. Defend the Lodge is not good. One teleporty or flying fast move unit and you're toast. It's not good. Oath-Takers and Skull-Breakers is so ridiculous it should be renamed "Shoot for the Moon" and at a minimum always be worth 7 VPs no matter the Battlepack (see Battle Tactics). Masters of the Forge is also a big NO.

Battle Tactics - None of them have any bonus for using Monsters and therefore are by default not competitive. All this Lofnir love by GW marketing and nothing here... boo GW. Settle the Grudge - Generally as good as Broken Ranks, Slay Warlord, or Bring it Down. But unlike all 3 of those, no bonus. Beastslayer - again a conditional tactic but I get no bonus. Stupid. Grimnir Knows no Mercy - Risky, but okay if you have 1 VGB and really think you'll easily survive. An Honourable Death - IE Grimwrath. Probably easy to get, but again it's 2 VPs. Your opponent, knowing your BT can just straight decide NOT to attack you. Seize by Force - only viable one, but again 2 VPs, meh. Ignominious Death - OMG this trash tactic tells me GW's writers are on crack.

The Grand Strategies and Battle Tactics we tried a little bit but quickly realized they are terrible. So either this is an indication that GHB2022 is coming and the new ones in there are going to be crazy difficult with NO monster bonuses meaning these crazy Tactics are good or GW just wasted an entire two pages on nonsense non-usable "beyond not competitive" ******. I need to see IDK book better, because GHB22 makes more sense then GW even bothering to write these.

TL;DR

• Lofnir dreams may need a better baseline then ours.
• VGB dreams not up to par so far. Will try Vostarg soon.
• Battlesmith is so far 150 pts to make it your opponents first target.
• Gotrek buff is neat, but still has the easy problem of avoiding combat.
• HGB is still strongest units on board. 3x Spam still likely best lists.
• Greyfyrd looks like the winner lodge.

[DrewGo]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Btw seems more people testing the book against the meta armys got the same conclusions that i got even before play one game lol

-vulkites havent damage for his cost

-flamekeeper and battlesmith are useless

-magmadroths arent competitives

-foot heroes with hg and retinue are our best unit and also greyfird

 

I gonna copy\paste the post that is in reddit,so credit to who posted it in reddit and not me.

 

Friend and I traded lists and armies in different situations to see how the new book theory crafting was working out. We pinned them against some of the top Metas:

• Legion of the First Prince
• Ironjawz - Bloodtoofs
• Sons of Behemat
• COS - Living Cities (4x Fulminators, Stormdrakes, Irondrakes)
• Daughters of Khaine

Sorry, no SCE (neither of us play them). A waste of testing if you forget things. No LRL because even though I love em, they aren't in the Meta now. But IDK will likely be in it if not top by next month.

We are both had made mock up 3 lists in similar fashion that we alternated playing while the other played an opposing army they well knew. We adjusted the lists between battles as we saw things that weren't working. For timing sake, when things went to ****** by turn 1/2 (and it routinely did), we called it because we knew what was going to happen. But technically ... by doing this we didn't see any late game come backs. Sadly for the FS, there isn't enough cheeky action or movement shenanigans in which what is going to take place on turn 3/4, and those turns are completely predictable for this army.

Some of the results are skewed as we misread a couple of rules. Particularly the Runefather's reincarnation of Lords of the Lodge. For the first few games we assumed this was Once a battle per RF, but that's bad literacy on our part. It's Once per Game, no matter the quantity of RFs. For that reason some games have a bad setup and Bad Turn 2 results.

Ultimately we tried out about 3 different setups with varying degrees of changes as we played:

1. Lofnir - Simply 1 RF on Magma + 5 Runesons on Magmas

Hilarious! For Legion and DOK, it was pretty well done. It almost tabled them turn 1/2. On his using it, he went all out all 6 in your face, which commonly resulted in losing of 2 RSs before they could fight. I would stagger and save Roaring Fyrestream for turn 2. Did a lot better that way. Living Cities, SoB it was as you'd guess - Horribly spectacular. It was funny tying up the 30x of Irondrakes. Basically killed them once they came out and 3x RS went after them. But, Dragons barely survived and that was enough to constantly hold points.

Ultimately our determination of the 6 Magmas Lofnir list was quote "value brand SoB". If you want alpha, then IJ's Mighty Destroyers is king. Only SOB have the Wounds to "full on moron flop" (also a fun quote last night) into the other side.

I feel Lofnir's 6 Magma spam advantage would be better if more MWU were in the meta. Maybe they will be with IDK and Nighhaughts getting a new BT. Saving the Roaring Fyerstream was a lot of damage. But for other big units - we might have more damage for sure, but not enough to clear 30-40 wounds. However it was plenty to mop up Belakor, Kairos and a Bloodthirster in turn 2.

2) Gotrek and Friends - Greyfyrd

Here is where we spent a lot of time. I think ultimately we both agreed on this list by our 4th play:

Warlord: Runefather (General, Leader of Duardazhal, Axe of Grimnir), Runesmiter (Arcane Tome, Prayer of Ash), Battlesmith (Nulsidian Icon), 10x VGBHunters of Hearthland: Grimwrath Berzerker (Daught of Magma Ale), Gotrek Gurnisson, 10x HGB (BA)Other: 10x VGB, 10x HGB

Originally we had 2x Runefathers instead of another VGB, because we thought you could have two uses of LotL, but that was played wrong. And that alone gave some ridiculous skewing on the results.

This lists did okay, not great and I'll get to why even though it won its battles, we weren't willing to say good or great. It won most of the games. Doing the damage and hold out it needed to on SOB and IJs. But did have issues with COS and DOK, but still pulled the win. LoFP was a wash in 2 games. Even with a good amount of anti-spell, it wasn't enough. The summoning just meant the First Prince player controlled the board.

In the 6 games we did with versions of this lists we were so excited about about the Gotrek buff, BUT it didn't matter. Because like all games, no one who knows Gotrek will on purpose engage him. In one game with COS, I thought it was funny so I shot him off the board with 2 rounds of Irondrakes. But that because I was losing anyway.

Here is also where we realized Foot Runefather with an Artifact like Draught or Axe of Grimnir with a HGB retinue is actually better than Gotrek. It's terrifyingly tough and hits like a tank. The Royal Retinue might be the savior of the BattleTome. They can't snipe your General because of bodyguard and this insures the ward on the HGB - AND - More importantly Dauntless Assault is amazing, because now your RF hits like a beast and now your HGB goes right after, EVEN if you used Counter Attack. HGB were a Wall before, but no with the RF, it's a a Death Ball.

Because this list has no natural monsters you have to take Arcane Tome to cast Metamorphosis to gain those fringe VPs.

As well, neither of us really got to see Battlesmith do all his glory. He was always sniped out or IJ/SOB would just barrel for him. One game we agreed to not be Aholes and attacked the VGB and let the Battlesmith do his thing. I mean, it was neat. VGB went down to 3 against a GoreGrunta charge. Battlesmith brought back 4. Neat. But then they died fully.

VGB on there own, not depending on buffs from Battlesmith and Flamekeeper (who we quickly abandoned in our list) did well. Their entire point is to kill something with them before they go and that's perfect. Averaged 6 Wounds before it went. If your opponent tries to avoid charging them thinking that saves them from the Fury + Counter Attack, then instead you charge and get your attack bonus. It's nearly a win/win. We started to theorize that VGB Vostarg spam might be the way to go, BUT honestly in most cases we were trading 20 of our Wounds (VGB) to output 6-7 wounds on them. Sure that goes up a bit with Vostarg, but with armies like IJ or SOB they would just plow through and accept the wounds gracefully and keep hauling at near a dent of damage. In that one case as an example 6x Goregruntas charged them (not with Waaagh or even Violent Fury yet) and near wiped the VGB (and that's important to now because a Waagh and Violet Fury Grunta stack of 3x even would simply just wipe the VGB) and the VGB killed 1 boar, which was going to be sacrificed to Coherency anyway. BS brings back 4, and then it gets obliterated on the next turn. In the end, it didn't technically kill anything, but it tied up that 6 stack for a double turn. Was that worth 170 pts? I didn't think so. But then again, not everything is Goregrunta level of alpha damage. But they are certainly rampant in the meta, so hard to ignore. But then again if I had VF or Waaagh, no VGB to bring back.

So ultimately this list held most of it's games. Gotrek goes unmolested, holds whatever he wants slowly chasing something. HGB with RF are the heroes of the games, lasting through almost any amount of damage and then giving it back beyond compare. BUT ... I couldn't call it "great". Because generally your par per turn on VP is 4 and that's basically what this list gets. Par 4. With arcane tome, you can get that to 5 VPs, but you're commonly unbound. So ... 23 VPs won the matches and would go 4-1 or even possibly 5-0, but at 120 VPs isn't top 10 in a GT. We struggled to see how to get to 150+. That's list the theory craft of list #3.

3) HGB are my Gods - Greyfyrd

I call it "Old School Cool", he called it "You Stubborn Dwarf" list.

Warlord: Runesmiter on Magmadroth (Droth Helm, Prayer of Ash), Runefather (General, Blood of the Berzerker [or Spirit of Grimnir], Axe of Grimnir), Runeson, Runeson, Battlesmith (Nusidian Icon), 10X HGB (PA)Hunters of the Hearthland: Grimwarth (Draught), 15x HGB (BA), 10x HGB (PA)

This was born from seeing the VGB not really do the amount that I wanted and seeing that HGB retinues are a serious problem for most armies to chew through. So RF and 2x RS with full outfits. RF with 15x HGB goes to center, RS with 10x HGB go outsides, Runesmiter and Battlesmith stagger the sides and come help which ever HGB line needs it. Grimwrath for the fun of it.

This was harder to chew through than the #2 list for the opponent. In almost no case was a HGB completely destroyed. Impossible to remove the RF/RS from the stack. And now the Runesmiter on Magma can pick up cheeky points for VPs. In some cases, we found ourselves locked in combat and would decide not to attack with the HGB to save the unit (monster) for the next turn for the Magma to kill. Think of how stupid that is. "I pass". You what? There's 9 HGB right there. "I pass, let's go onto battleshock".

I played it twice, but only fought it once with DOK. You sit there and look at the stacks and go "What am I going for here? What's the biggest threat?" And your answer is '******'.

I sniped the Battlesmith and just started notching the Runesmiter taunting me behind 3 stacks of HGB. I had no answer for the HGB. I spent an entire army trying to kill 1 Runeson 10X HGB stack for Round 3 and was done. The only thing I accomplished was killing the Runesmiter to deny VPs. But as I my friend pointed out, that's driven by spite. You don't play to deny VPs (unless it's game 5 and you can see your opponent is placed #1 and youre #2), you play for your VPs. A loss of 35-34 is meaningless in terms of being a "loss". A win of 24-23 is meaningless if your objective is podium.

#3, though not fully play tested, with using the old Stacking HGB is as it was, formidable. At first I would call it a nerf based on points alone, but the reality is with the Retinue you are near guaranteed Ward protection plus extra damage. The new Runes really do increase your output, but it's mostly that you can't lose your ward guarantee. Or rather it takes a tremendous amount of damage. IE a 6x of Gore Gruntas can right properly remove a 10x HGB stack. Previously as an opponent you just removed the heroes first. So IJ you fly over and charge behind or most shooting armies could do it. NOW - ****** you. Try to chew through 7 wounds on my RF with a 3+ protector and a 4+ ward. Though we didn't play test it, LRL 30x stack Sentinels with Lambent Light could do it. So there ways to snipe him out, just not easy ones.

Grimwrath might be a waste. Give the artifact to a Runeson and get nearly the same result (so long as Runeson is on a monster).

Anything stupid enough to fight your RF + HGB stack is in for a surprise. On the Awaken Steel turn with Lord of Lodge up, a RF with Axe of Grimnir is going to do 9-10 wounds himself. Then the HGB go right after do no joke, 43 damage against a 4+. Even if they stack their saves to a 2+, you are going to output near 30 wounds. Against SOB he move his general on the middle OBJ to which would have given him control but he straight got deaded. 40 wounds was nothing. The mistake was charging me, when he should have just inched onto the OBJ edge via a run.

On the subject of scoring VPs:

Grand Strategies - Guarded Lineage is nearly as good as Hold the Line. BUT, hold the line is still better as far as #3 is concerned. Defend the Lodge is not good. One teleporty or flying fast move unit and you're toast. It's not good. Oath-Takers and Skull-Breakers is so ridiculous it should be renamed "Shoot for the Moon" and at a minimum always be worth 7 VPs no matter the Battlepack (see Battle Tactics). Masters of the Forge is also a big NO.

Battle Tactics - None of them have any bonus for using Monsters and therefore are by default not competitive. All this Lofnir love by GW marketing and nothing here... boo GW. Settle the Grudge - Generally as good as Broken Ranks, Slay Warlord, or Bring it Down. But unlike all 3 of those, no bonus. Beastslayer - again a conditional tactic but I get no bonus. Stupid. Grimnir Knows no Mercy - Risky, but okay if you have 1 VGB and really think you'll easily survive. An Honourable Death - IE Grimwrath. Probably easy to get, but again it's 2 VPs. Your opponent, knowing your BT can just straight decide NOT to attack you. Seize by Force - only viable one, but again 2 VPs, meh. Ignominious Death - OMG this trash tactic tells me GW's writers are on crack.

The Grand Strategies and Battle Tactics we tried a little bit but quickly realized they are terrible. So either this is an indication that GHB2022 is coming and the new ones in there are going to be crazy difficult with NO monster bonuses meaning these crazy Tactics are good or GW just wasted an entire two pages on nonsense non-usable "beyond not competitive" ******. I need to see IDK book better, because GHB22 makes more sense then GW even bothering to write these.

TL;DR

• Lofnir dreams may need a better baseline then ours.
• VGB dreams not up to par so far. Will try Vostarg soon.
• Battlesmith is so far 150 pts to make it your opponents first target.
• Gotrek buff is neat, but still has the easy problem of avoiding combat.
• HGB is still strongest units on board. 3x Spam still likely best lists.
• Greyfyrd looks like the winner lodge.

I don't understand your harsh criticism of the Vulkites build. 

First you keep acting like the 1" reach on a 32mm base means it's impossible to attack with them. This is just rarely a huge issue. 2-3 at worst can't get attacks in unless you're really stuck because of terrain or you're attacking a hero on a small base. You're almost always still getting 7 models with 3 attacks each that hit and wound on a +2 on a charge and that's without any buffs from any heros or runes. No CP needed either. Even without rend attacking a +4 save unit you're looking at an average of 7 wounds. Pushing 10 if you have the rend or MW rune active.

Second you keep talking about the Battlesmith/Flamekeeper getting magicked or shot off the board. If your opponent has good shooting or spells they're always going to try to take out your good heroes. Does that mess up the possibility of buffing the Vulkites with a Flamekeeper or rallying them back with a Battlesmith? Sure! But how much shooting did the opponent just throw out to kill a couple of heroes? Odds are, they won't split thier attacks and will overkill the heroes, which isn't an efficient way to spend your shooting. And now you have unharmed units or Vulkites charging you, which, as I just mentioned can still hit very hard even without any hero buffs! 

Moreover, you only need to spend 1190-1360 points to bring 70-80 Vulkites, leaving you plenty of room to take several Flamekeepers and multiple battlesmiths. Can they still be shot off the board? Sure! But there's more of them to shoots and more opportunities to get the buffs. 

Again, I'll add the disclaimer that I don't think this is some OP tournament crushing list, but I do think it can be fun and still pretty good.

[Doko]

I said(and seems testers too) that vulkites are bad due to low damage for his cost.

As you said they can be fun and ok for casuals games i think we are saying the same.

I really like vulkites id they would have 25mm or 2" range,but with actual 33mm and 1" range you cant play and attack with a unit of 30 vulkites.

And as you said a single unit of vulkites even buffed only makes as 7 wounds to save4 units(with all out defense is even less) that if it was msu units would be fine. But 7 wounds to a unit of 30 models with 30+ wounds these 7 wounds done dont matter and gonna attack back and delete the vulkites.

But  meanwhile 15 hearthguards can attack every model and can kill these units of 30+ wounds.

I dont know what i said,but vulkites arent useless. But only are overcosted for his damage(his damage is from a 100 points unit) but seems were tried balance around his tankiness(20 wounds with save5 cost around 160)

If you think vulkites are fun and good,go for it!

My point is:

 

-vulkites cant be played in bigger than msu units

-msu units allways gonna loose against reinforced units

-vulkites have too much low damage for his cost

 

Dont help that new retinue dont work with vulkites.

 

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

I said(and seems testers too) that vulkites are bad due to low damage for his cost.

From your battlereports/testers, it seems that Vulkites are not bad (nor amazing):

4 hours ago, Doko said:

VGB on there own, not depending on buffs from Battlesmith and Flamekeeper (who we quickly abandoned in our list) did well. 

4 hours ago, Doko said:

VGB dreams not up to par so far. Will try Vostarg soon.

They are not a powerhouse, and can't compete with other hitters like Goregruntas (like the testers said) or chew Megagargant wounds. Testers said that the best options to go for a 5-0 (even if the vulkite build did an amazing job in their tests) is going for RF+HGB retinue.

[DrewGo]

9 hours ago, Doko said:

And as you said a single unit of vulkites even buffed only makes as 7 wounds to save4 units

This is not what I said. I said 7 Vulkites are doing 7 wounds on a charge even if they're NOT buffed by a hero.

10 hours ago, Doko said:

But 7 wounds to a unit of 30 models with 30+ wounds these 7 wounds done dont matter and gonna attack back and delete the vulkites.

If you're attacking a block of 30 models there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to get a full unit to attack by honeycombing, which adds 9 more attacks, and 3 more wounds on average on a +4 save. Moreover, killing Vulkites actually isn't as bad because they all get to attack again, which means 10 more wounds. Again, that is before accounting for what rune is active, and before accounting for the potential buffs from heroes (runefather giving extra attacks, Flamekeeper boosting damage output). With -1 rend, you're looking at 13-14 wounds, doubled if they all die. If that big unit is 30 models with a +4 save, you just killed 26-28 models with a 10 model, 170 point unit. Sure you lost the unit, but I can't imagine a scenario where that's not a positive trade in your favor. 

10 hours ago, Doko said:

But  meanwhile 15 hearthguards can attack every model and can kill these units of 30+ wounds.

Using base stats, 15 HGB with axes are averaging 17 wounds to a +4 save unit. If you have the -1 rend rune active it jumps to 22 wounds. Obviously this is better, but you're still not doing enough to kill the unit of 30 wounds, and 15 HGB are almost 3x the number of points as 10 Vulkites, comparing the damage output of a 480 point unit and a 170 point unit is really silly without taking that into account. 

In terms of average damage output per point against a +4 save unit, before hero and rune buffs and without dying, Vulkites (in Vostarg) do 0.076 wounds per point on a charge, and 0.026 wounds per point if they didn't charge. HGB do 0.035 wounds per point either way. 

HGB are a better unit than Vulkites, but it absolutely is not because they do more damage per point. The reason HGB are better is because they have the 4+ ward and bodyguard ability. 

I get that the 1" reach can be a limiting factor for the Vulkites, but it's not so limiting that they become "bad." It just means you probably don't want to run huge blocks of 30 Vulkites.