OkayestDM Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 Quite possibly the most popular GHB addition of AoS 2.0 were the Anvil of Apotheosis rules for making your own custom hero. With the new edition, these rules are less compatible than before, but still usable. With that said, I remain hopeful that we'll see the AoA rules brought into alignment with the current edition and expanded upon, and I doubt I'm alone in that regard. As such, I invite you to join me in some shameless wishlisting for what an updated set of Anvil rules might look like, and how you'd like to see it expanded upon! For my part, I would love if the Anvil were given a dedicated rules to make it compatible with Path to Glory, where having a unique and custom hero would shine most brightly. Additionally, I wouldn't mind a small set of unique options for each of the factions that set our heroes apart from the rest while adding flavor and reinforcing themes within that faction. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drcrater Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 I just want them to include Deadwalker as a "race" for the hero. I want a zombie overlord pleassse 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 Id love a Path to Glory book/pack like the 40k Crusade ones and an expanded Anvil would make an excellent focus for it! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbox Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 I'd like to see a mount option with a built in ranged attack instead of say the maw attack so that we can make things like steamtanks or ironblaster riding ogors or sharks with freaking laser beams. I know we can just take a bow on the hero but it feels so awkward with having a mount weapon being treated as their weapon and not a mount weapon for interaction purposes. Also it means we can't have an angry freeguild general leaning out of his Rhino mounted howitzer shooting a dinky pistol. I'd also like to see more 'fun rules' options for hero's, instead of just getting super basic stuff like better stats or mortals on x roll it would be nice to see more stuff like the legion of blood did with 'transform into a dire wolf or angry bat and feel like a pissed off D&D druid' or something like how kharadron endrinriggers (and most skaven) get the 'chance of a power boost but on a 1 you go owchie'. Stuff like that feels more fun than just 'make number better'. Also more support hero options. What's the point of giving yourself the totem keyword when most books straight up don't care about it, more totem shenanigans other than just 'better banner' would be cool. Maybe if you take the totem upgrade you can take an upgrade to let units fully within 12 inches heal 1 wound in the hero phase or something? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthMusketeer Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 As long as they get Sam Pearson to write it I'm sure it will be great. That guy knows how to do narrative content better than anyone else at the company. GW is lucky to have him. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 So do you guys think it is time to open up the Anvil for matched play? Or should it stay narrative only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: So do you guys think it is time to open up the Anvil for matched play? Or should it stay narrative only? The way it is now it shouldn’t be matched play legal. I‘d prefer a lightweight version: (everything gets reasonable points) Standard Stats for every race. A chart for base sizes depending on mount and race choose an archetype: Priest, Wizard, Commander, Warrior which restricts your armour options One CA can be bought out of a list One Ability can be bought. Mostly free choice of equipment options for every race Adding of one keyword (like Marine for KO, Darkling Covens for an aelf etc.) Chosing a mount. This would reign AoA in while giving the game the customization variability that made Warhammer Fantasy great. Now put your hero into your favorite army and you get the Allegiance Abilities on top: Voila. This approach could also solve the Stormcast Hero bloat. Edited February 25, 2022 by JackStreicher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 Honestly id prefer them to keep any matched play anvil use extremely loose as it is currently. Normally im all for breadth but in my experience having a "balanced" version means a lot of people will insist on using that and let the broader system rot which would be a big shame. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Noserenda said: Honestly id prefer them to keep any matched play anvil use extremely loose as it is currently. Normally im all for breadth but in my experience having a "balanced" version means a lot of people will insist on using that and let the broader system rot which would be a big shame. Nah, all they need to do is remove the whackyness of the current system so you can create a "normal", yet customisable hero. I put a little spreadshit together to show what I mean:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PPS_nKnEE8zArcxpFWYkAQejYQpH8vWSkIcWPFSCt9Y/edit?usp=sharing I haven't added anything concerning mounts yet however. Edited February 25, 2022 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber SunStorm Posted February 25, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted February 25, 2022 I'd love it to be updated for AoS 3, it was perfect for people kitbashing their own heroes. It reminded me of the old Fantasy rules where heroes were much more customisable. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) So I've made a test character with the slightly edited system (just to show how and that it works pretty well)https://imgur.com/a/IB3wc28 the Attacks stat is wrng, it should be 5 There could be a lot of approaches of how to make it matched play okay: Adding all subclasses of heroes for every factions and granting a list of possible equipment options. Or a flexible system (like AoA) with more Abilities that produces heroes that are about on the level of normal heroes yet customized. All in all I would not count on GW to make anything that could be used in matched play without feeling bad. I'd like it. However I assume we'd have to use a fan made update to AoA in order to make it okay for Matched Play. Edited February 25, 2022 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkayestDM Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 12 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: So do you guys think it is time to open up the Anvil for matched play? Or should it stay narrative only? For my part, I think it's safer if it stays narrative, and personally I believe it makes more sense there. The more customization they give us (which I consider desirable) the easier it is for someone to find janky rules exploits that will have the community crying for balance, which could steal away the heart and soul of AoA. Sure, jank could still appear in narrative games to, but the very nature of narrative play implies a system that is less concerned with rules and balance. Customization would find a better home there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightbox Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, OkayestDM said: For my part, I think it's safer if it stays narrative, and personally I believe it makes more sense there. The more customization they give us (which I consider desirable) the easier it is for someone to find janky rules exploits that will have the community crying for balance, which could steal away the heart and soul of AoA. Sure, jank could still appear in narrative games to, but the very nature of narrative play implies a system that is less concerned with rules and balance. Customization would find a better home there. Whilst narrative works well for it id definitely like them to keep an easy points conversion to make using them in path to glory and points based games easier, kind of like how they are currently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkayestDM Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Lightbox said: Whilst narrative works well for it id definitely like them to keep an easy points conversion to make using them in path to glory and points based games easier, kind of like how they are currently. I'm 100% in agreement there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthMusketeer Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: So do you guys think it is time to open up the Anvil for matched play? Or should it stay narrative only? Nononono, don't ruin the anvil by putting it in matched. Right now narrative players are looking at their narrative characters thinking 'this is totally fine for matched' and they are right. But anvil heroes geared for maximum efficiency will break the game real fast. Not only that but there need to be additional restrictions and limits in place so players don't do exactly that, which in turn cuts down on options for narrative players who wouldn't have used those eccentric options that way. And don't get me started on tournaments -.- Edited February 25, 2022 by NinthMusketeer 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronWilson Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 The problem you have with putting something like the Anvil into matched play is being restricted and moulded to fit matched play. Leaving it for open / narrative means it can have complete freedom to be silly / allow people to be creative and I think it's best it stays that way for the people who enjoy using it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkayestDM Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 With the recent leaks for the new Thondia Battlepack, it looks like the Anvil of Apotheosis is going to be released in installments that are tied to each realm (the first one being for Ghur.) It's altogether too early to tell what this will look like, but I'm very excited! The AoA looks to have about 10 pages of content, and is situated between PtG and Narrative play rules in the book. While not conclusive, this certainly seems to indicate that it isn't meant to mesh with Matched play (and honestly, I'm fine with that.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber SunStorm Posted April 7, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted April 7, 2022 I wonder if it being linked to Ghur means we'll see options to make "hunter" type heroes, or if we'll get options for new Ghur themed mounts for the heroes? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 7 hours ago, OkayestDM said: The AoA looks to have about 10 pages of content, and is situated between PtG and Narrative play rules in the book. While not conclusive, this certainly seems to indicate that it isn't meant to mesh with Matched play (and honestly, I'm fine with that.) In all honesty, as long as they have points (which they'd need for P2G), I think most people would be happy to use them in casual matched play games - which is the best of both worlds. Anvil shouldn't be made dry for fear of breaking tournaments, and the more narrative the abilities the better when it comes to making your own characters. No one wants their unique hero to be less interesting and powerful than the generic equivalent, so I'm hoping P2G lets us fully explore character creation and doesn't miss out some potentially interesting inter-factional interactions (like necessary keywords being available). I'd also love if you could properly upgrade these heroes in P2G using renown to make that more of an impactful mechanic for heroes (especially the warlord). My biggest fear is that not enough thought goes into the Anvil and some armies just don't have heroes that can work properly. For example, in Slaves to Darkness, they don't just need access to the Mortal and Chaos keywords, but also potential access to Slaanesh/Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch as well as Daemon (for Princes), Eye of the Gods (very importantly), and Darkoath. I can see them forgetting 80% of those options (just allowing a god mark) which would suck and leave generic Chaos Lord as a better stand in for most characters. Fingers crossed that the Anvil was a significant undertaking with lots of thought put into it, and not just a bone to throw narrative players written in a couple of days. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkayestDM Posted April 7, 2022 Author Share Posted April 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Enoby said: My biggest fear is that not enough thought goes into the Anvil and some armies just don't have heroes that can work properly. For example, in Slaves to Darkness, they don't just need access to the Mortal and Chaos keywords, but also potential access to Slaanesh/Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch as well as Daemon (for Princes), Eye of the Gods (very importantly), and Darkoath. I can see them forgetting 80% of those options (just allowing a god mark) which would suck and leave generic Chaos Lord as a better stand in for most characters. Fingers crossed that the Anvil was a significant undertaking with lots of thought put into it, and not just a bone to throw narrative players written in a couple of days. To be fair, nothing is preventing players from just agreeing with each other to add in the missing keywords, particularly in narrative play. That said, I agree that it would be nice if a fair amount of thought went in to ensuring that every custom hero could have all the keywords they need. I'm confident that they'll have a method for building a hero from the ground up like last time, but I wonder if they'll also have an "upgrade" system from existing hero warscrolls? If you're using a Chaos Lord on Karkadrach as your AoA hero, will you be able to build off of the official warscroll instead of designing it from the ground up? That would certainly be one way to solve the keyword issue. I have very high hopes for this system, especially since AoA now looks like it will be expanded in all or most battlepacks that are released. I certainly hope they commit to it and do a great job! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted April 7, 2022 Share Posted April 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, OkayestDM said: To be fair, nothing is preventing players from just agreeing with each other to add in the missing keywords, particularly in narrative play. That said, I agree that it would be nice if a fair amount of thought went in to ensuring that every custom hero could have all the keywords they need Oh yeah, I agree the vast majority of reasonable groups would let you take a keyword that made sense. I suppose my concern is less "will you be able to at all" (because it's an easy houserule) and more that if they've left the keywords off, would that be indicative of lesser quality control or less time/effort put into AoA. There are also a small number of keywords that offer generic power ups - for example, Eye of the Gods in Slaves to Darkness and Greater Daemon in Slaanesh. While some groups would be fine just adding these on (should you want to make a custom Keeper of Secrets for example), others may argue that some keywords should cost points as they translate directly to buffs. I've also found it's harder to sell people in my group on supplementary rules that need house rules, no matter how minor. I think a lot of it comes from the enthusiasm being sapped out of someone when creating a character, only to find out it doesn't work unless they get permission. Despite most of the time the permission is easily obtained, some players feel as if their hero was only allowed at the behest of others. A made up hero from AoA being unofficial shouldn't logically matter, but I've seen it dampen enthusiasm before. 23 minutes ago, OkayestDM said: but I wonder if they'll also have an "upgrade" system from existing hero warscrolls? If you're using a Chaos Lord on Karkadrach as your AoA hero, will you be able to build off of the official warscroll instead of designing it from the ground up? That would certainly be one way to solve the keyword issue. I really hope so, it would be a great thing for them to include that would allow people to upgrade the heroes that already fit their character concept. Generic heroes like Chaos Lords can fit the bill for most Chaos Lord-like character concepts, and some players may bemoan losing the command ability for potentially little gain, so allowing someone to upgrade their generic chaos lord to be more unique would be a huge boon. 26 minutes ago, OkayestDM said: have very high hopes for this system, especially since AoA now looks like it will be expanded in all or most battlepacks that are released. I certainly hope they commit to it and do a great job! I'm very much looking forward to it too. My worries come from the fact that some GW publications seem to vary wildly in quality - AoA is one of those things I'm just praying they get correct as it was one of the best supplementary rules ideas they had in AoS 2. If it's poor or just half finished then it'll be a big blow for narrative gamers. I think my worries are partially there as Path to Glory 3e, while fun, feels half finished. Like they got the skeleton written and then ran out of time - small things like renown doing very little for your warlord (even though the narrative of P2G is that they're building their renown and army), outposts being a vestigial system, upgrades being about removing restrictions instead of getting stronger, and feeling too much like matched play in some areas make P2G 3e less appealing than it should be. This comes from someone who's 17 games into a P2G campaign - I've enjoyed it a lot, but it feels as if it would have benefitted from being its own book with more time dedicated to finalising rules. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Casman Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Some news on the Anvil of Apotheosis: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/08/the-anvil-of-apotheosis-returns-and-weve-used-it-to-forge-a-krule-new-hero/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) I'm 100% with @Enoby Don't get me wrong, I love Anvil of Apotheosis (I have an ongoing project to make warscrolls for all Fantasy characters and old miniatures). Another thing that I miss is the uniqueness that the Anvil should give to your Heroe. A good example is the new entrance from Warhammer Community (see @Boss Casman). That Kruleboy is not a merchant as they say, he is a lazy warlord. The old OverTyrant had a bribery mechanic and Skumdrekk has an abiltity that could work for such character. The anvil should give more flavour than just "generic stats than can be tweaked"! I like that we can try to build mounts and monstruous creatures (really good for models with chariots and palanquins), but Imho, an option to take premade animals and mounts with the same abilities of their "legal" counterparts could be a good step (just don't remove the table to create your own monster). I want to buy a Corpse-rippa Vulcha! Imo, the best enhancements were the unique ones from White Dwarfs. I hope that it stays the same in this new book. Vampires should have diferent improvement options than goblins. About AoA being allowed for Matched Play? I hope so! I love Customizable Heroe and Matched play seems to have less and less of that type of stuff. Edited April 8, 2022 by Beliman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted April 20, 2022 Share Posted April 20, 2022 Just got the book - I've not had a chance to properly look through it, but am I correct that they've missed out Slaves to Darkness as an option? The "Mortal" keyword only includes the Chaos God armies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Casman Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 Yeah, it looks like <Slaves to Darkness> isn't currently an option. Should be an easy fix via errata, though. The Chaos Mortal ancestry is otherwise the same as the one from the GHB 2020. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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