Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Xeperi]

17 minutes ago, Champasaur said:

also does anyone know the timeframe it takes for Warscroll Builder to update their points/roster? I want to be able to use it again

 

When 3.0 released it was updated by Monday. So once the books are officially out it shouldn't take long.

[Elephant_fresh]

1 hour ago, Lengthster said:

Yeah Warhammer is definitely a long-term hobby, armies get better and worse with new releases and it takes hours to paint your stuff so you just have to roll with it.

Warhammer is a long term hobby, but we've all been waiting quite some time for a better battletome. Only for it to invalidate all our units for another 4+ years. This battletome is a cynical marketing ploy rather than a good faith product to help us get the most from our miniatures.

[Freejack02]

4 minutes ago, Elephant_fresh said:

Only for it to invalidate all our units for another 4+ years.

All of my Protectors and Relictors feel really invalid. 

[Nizrah]

But wait. From Sacrosant:

Seqitors - better 

Evocats - better 

Evocators - worse but they were bonkers and probably deserved it 

Castigators - better 

Balist - better 

Ordynator - better 

Exorcist - better 

Every incarnation of Lord Arcanum - better 

 

So what are you talking about? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scrollbuilderdude]

1 hour ago, Champasaur said:

also does anyone know the timeframe it takes for Warscroll Builder to update their points/roster? I want to be able to use it again

 

Should be up the Monday after the release.

[Abstract_duck]

I disagree with the general sentiment from the last few posts. On the one hand, I don't think competing with current S tier armies should be the goal. That's just rooting for power creep. On the other hand, I don't think viability of units within a battletome ought to be equal across the board. Stormcast, like other armies, should fill a certain niche. Part of stormcasts niche might be flexibility. Yet still, I believe the functions of some units isn't to be viable under all circumstances. Instead, the role of a unit might be to (1) give some possibilities in a department of a faction, even if the power level is limited, or (2) prevent certain meta's from forming because they might hardcounter such meta's. In the sense of the last statement, a unit doesn't have to be played to be part of the meta. 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Abstract_duck

[Lucur]

1 hour ago, Elephant_fresh said:

Warhammer is a long term hobby, but we've all been waiting quite some time for a better battletome. Only for it to invalidate all our units for another 4+ years. This battletome is a cynical marketing ploy rather than a good faith product to help us get the most from our miniatures.

The only thing in the tome that's out there is drakes. Granted, smells like selling stuff. Other than that, ofc there's some winners and losers, but overall this is waaaaay more competitive than the last tome, internally. Most units have a place and,  besides drakes, new stuff doesn't knock anything out of the park.

So, give me an insight how you get that oppinion. I have a mostly sacrosanct army, and i feel all my stuff got way better. Dracolines can compete with our hammer units nicely, Sequitors are a great battleline, though expensive, with an inbuilt ward and okay damage. Ballistae are way less dependent on support, even Castigators can do a bit of work now. So, unless you fine sir give me an insight as to why the sky is falling i label you a negative troll.

[The World Tree]

37 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

But wait. From Sacrosant:

Seqitors - better 

Evocats - better 

Evocators - worse but they were bonkers and probably deserved it 

Castigators - better 

Balist - better 

Ordynator - better 

Exorcist - better 

Every incarnation of Lord Arcanum - better 

 

So what are you talking about? 

I'm with you. Well, I'd argue the Lord Exorcist is worse simply by virtue of its insane cost, but they seem fine. Sequitors, as a redeemer unit, are very very good.

[Elephant_fresh]

25 minutes ago, Lucur said:

The only thing in the tome that's out there is drakes. Granted, smells like selling stuff. Other than that, ofc there's some winners and losers, but overall this is waaaaay more competitive than the last tome, internally. Most units have a place and,  besides drakes, new stuff doesn't knock anything out of the park.

So, give me an insight how you get that oppinion. I have a mostly sacrosanct army, and i feel all my stuff got way better. Dracolines can compete with our hammer units nicely, Sequitors are a great battleline, though expensive, with an inbuilt ward and okay damage. Ballistae are way less dependent on support, even Castigators can do a bit of work now. So, unless you fine sir give me an insight as to why the sky is falling i label you a negative troll.

That's exactly what I'm saying though. Stormdrake guard and Knight Draconis together overshadow almost everything else in the book. You could take just about any 285 chunk of the book and ask "would stormdrake guard be better?" and the answer would be "probably".

Do you genuinely think that an army made up of Sacrosanct units could go toe-to-toe with any strong build out there? I cannot conceive of a Sacrosanct list that has the tools and teeth to stand a chance against Tzeentch Archaon, Morathi Bowsnakes, Gargants, Harukan wind spirits etc. 

The new battletome being more competitive than the last one is hardly praiseworthy, the previous book (apart from maybe one build) was totally pillowfisted. Disappointment with this battletome is legitimate.

[Sleepa]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

But wait. From Sacrosant:

Seqitors - better 

Evocats - better 

Evocators - worse but they were bonkers and probably deserved it 

Castigators - better 

Balist - better 

Ordynator - better 

Exorcist - better 

Every incarnation of Lord Arcanum - better

So what are you talking about? 

I don't think Evocats are better. Both flavours of Evos not getting rend updates to their melee weapons is horrible. Yes the Dracs do D3 all the time now, but they also have to compete with alternatives in the same price bracket. They don't seem to have the output or survivability of Stormdrakes or Paladins.

Ordinator isn't really better. He's basically unchanged, which is worse when compared to the value offered by priests and wizards.

Ballista for more consistent and modest. It is more versatile now, but the ceiling is also lower.

Castigators are better than they were, but what they were was the worst warscroll in our book, so they may need to come a bit further to see use.

Sequitors are indeed better, but really need to be the same cost as Vindictors, so there's a real tension of choice there.

All the Lord Arcanums lost their vials and prime electrids, so they got some kind of upgrade or tweak to make up for that. They are all overcosted by 20-30 points.

Sancrosanct isnt horrible in a vacuum. But almost every single part of it is strictly inferior to new options. Which makes it bad by comparison, if nothing else. 

 

 

[loky100]

The thing I've been thinking about with Stormdrake guard is that its a monster so each one they kill they get 1 point.

This is a lot of points and they will kill a few of them. You bleeding so many points to your enemies with these.

Since games are a lot closer then before could be the swing that makes it a loss.
Just something I don't think many people are thinking about.

[jeanfluflu]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

But wait. From Sacrosant:

Seqitors - better 

Evocats - better 

Evocators - worse but they were bonkers and probably deserved it 

Castigators - better 

Balist - better 

Ordynator - better 

Exorcist - better 

Every incarnation of Lord Arcanum - better 

 

So what are you talking about? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd argue that sequitor lost tons of tanking potential, we used to play them to stack saves and abuse the reroll to tank an objective, they are still nice but at 145pts for 5 it makes a difference at the end of your list when you need those 30 to 45pts to fit everything together.
They still hit decently for their point costs and the 5+ward is really enjoyable but compare them to vindictors they are slightly worse than vindictors at tanking objective due to the native 4+save.
Yes they do more damages but this isn't the role of a battleline and we have better tools to do that as well, but i think  they can fit nicely in a hallowed knights stormkeep when they can fight back after dying, count as 15...etc.

Evocats are definitely better, they lost their spell lore but who cares? empower was better than celestial blades anyway, they had the native charge reroll so no need for that either and the last spell was so niche that no one was playing them.
The d3 damages on the mounts and the native +1attack from the lord arcanum is ace, i love it and they also gained an additional dice for the MW!

Evocators on foot lost two things: first is Gavriel (who's trash now) and the second one is the 2" on the grandstaves, this makes units of 10 way less valuable. Waiting for a clarification on the translocation prayer (who needs a "can't move after being teleported") but otherwise i see no way to safely send them into combat.

Castigators are better, never used them but i'm curious to see how they play their roles, i saw that they could be battleline in knight excelsior which is odd (on the big file someone shared earlier in this topic: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R35OxR0v2veogS5nfawlozkdUgg7KUVp-FhrYFk7wvo/edit?fbclid=IwAR3UpgRYPRbXtexqm0fo3Ser6lb6aLp8s1RnQDbjAkJU45Va4RgcXSfnZ5o#gid=0 ) but makes them the cheapest battleline of the book if verified.
Other than that we don't want to reinforce them unless there's nothgin else to reinforce, they can benefit from empower for their shooting attacks but will mostly shoot 6 to 7 shots anyway so why bother.
2 shots Rend 2 per model, 210 for a squad of 6 when we can have judicators who are 200 for a squad of 5 and spray MW on 6 to hit, matchup is close but i'll choose the judicators every time just for that MW spray.

Ballista got better, the single shot REND 3 is really attractive, but at the same time the d6 damage is swingy and we won a beautiful knight judicators who can land 2 shots rend 3 damage 3 for 205pts and comes with 2 gryph hounds for saving the backline from TP and use warcry to shoot enemy for free when they aprear close to them.

Exorcist is really really bad, i mean 170pts for that? His native spell is really bad and he doesn't brings much else, pick a knight incantor over this guys you'll never regret it.

Lords arcanums got better i agree, especially the dracoline one, i also love the foot one with a native thundershock on his warscroll. Pick him and select celestial blades or Azyrite halo and you'll be ready for a lot of situations. The fact that they all kept cycle of the storm ability is nice too.

To finish i'd say sacrosanct chamber is still pretty good and there's tons of stuff to do with them on the right host...etc.
Some stuff have been nerfed and we lost some interesting rules here and there (the spirit flasks, i'm sad) but overall these are all nice units.
We suffer from the new stuff being better for a cheaper price, but this is something that can change on the next general's handbook with a couple of points adjustments.

Edited September 15, 2021 by jeanfluflu

[Lucur]

47 minutes ago, Elephant_fresh said:

*snip*

Alright, put like this there's a bit of a point there, apologies.

 If Drakes get through the next points update unscathed i'll eat my words, but those won't stay that way imo.

Considering Sequitors, they cannot be prized at the same point as Vindictors. They are plain better when compared unbuffed. Ofc Vindis buffed get to a 2+ sv which Sequitors can't, but Seqs get that sweet ward (MW anyone?) and they scale way better with extra attacks due to 2dmg. The reach is hardly an issue as you mostly want the greatmaces to strike, regular dudes are a nice extra (though maybe more important now than before). From there it's thunderstrike keyword that is the sole advantage for Vindis.

Considering other competitive builds, i haven't played a tourney in some time, but the major issues i've ever had were the inability to score against blobs (read: splitting horrors). With the general update to scoring multi wound models and stormkeeps especially i think we are way better off than before. For most of those matchups we'll have to wait and see how things shake out, i'm optimistic our tools are better and way more diverse than a week ago.

Of course there is a strong possibilty for another good early book that's power crept into oblivion within half a year. I just hope Gdubbs learned a bit from 2.0 and doesn't repeat that. I remember full well the hate for Sequitors and Evocators when noone else but NH had new tomes...yet ^^

Edited September 15, 2021 by Lucur
Spellink

[Champasaur]

9 minutes ago, Lucur said:

i haven't played a tourney in some time, but the major issues i've ever had were the inability to score against blobs (read: splitting horrors)

Horrors of Tzeentch got changed in the most recent FAQ and it took a slight hit to their tanking power. The unit doesn't have to battleshock based on Pinks & Blues being killed, but you cannot return Pink Horrors to the unit if you could return models in some way. Rolling a 1 on battleshock no longer brings back d6 pink horrors (just brimstones), so Kairos can't have a pink horrors unit sit on an objective and be completely unkillable. 

 

They still are super tanky

[Marcvs]

Every list I write / consider I am amazed by how many units will basically play with their bare warscroll (i.e. getting nothing from allegiance / sub allegiance).

Go hallowed knights, go stormkeep: everything that is not a REDEEMER is bare warscroll.
Go knights Excelsior, go scions: everything that is not in reserve and not a paladin is bare warscroll

and so on. It all feels... bland (not speaking of power levels here).

[PrimeElectrid]

9 hours ago, PJetski said:

Here's my second attempt

Hallowstrike - Hallowed Knights / Scions

Gardus
Incantor (Azyrite Halo)
Lord-Relictor (Translocation, CT: Reroll prayers, Arcane Tome: Celestial Blades)
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon (Chain Lightning, Mount: Celestial Instincts)

5x Liberators
5x Liberators
5x Liberators
10x Protectors (Unleash Thy Hatred)
6x Longstrikes (Thunderous Volley)

1990/2000

Need Warlord battalion for the 2nd Holy Command

Was torn between Tauralon or something like Castigators x6 + Aetherwings, or an Endless Spell like Geminids/Shackles/Lifeswarm. Decided on the Tauralon for his speed, synergy with Saintly Assault, +1 Hit boost, Mount Trait, and MONSTER.

I don’t think you get any real benefit from Azyrite Halo without reroll saves. It’s also melee only now so meh.

Swap Celestial Blades to the Incantor and give the Tauralon the 5++ IMO.

[PrimeElectrid]

2 hours ago, Nizrah said:

But wait. From Sacrosant:

Seqitors - better 

Evocats - better 

Evocators - worse but they were bonkers and probably deserved it 

Castigators - better 

Balist - better 

Ordynator - better 

Exorcist - better 

Every incarnation of Lord Arcanum - better 

 

So what are you talking about? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m not sure we can say better. Lots of abilities removed, some new ones added, and in both cases some of questionable value (lol Exorcist). Some points up, some down. Feels like sidegrades in a few places.

Dracolines are arguably the biggest beneficiary and they compete with Dragons. The wizards all lost something, but came down in points, and some of them do their thing a bit better. I think I prefer a cheaper LAoGC that teleports without vials and prime electrids (rip username)? I’m not sure. Think i prefer a more expensive Tauralon that has 2 casts though. Like I said hard to evaluate.

 

[jeanfluflu]

9 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Every list I write / consider I am amazed by how many units will basically play with their bare warscroll (i.e. getting nothing from allegiance / sub allegiance).

Go hallowed knights, go stormkeep: everything that is not a REDEEMER is bare warscroll.
Go knights Excelsior, go scions: everything that is not in reserve and not a paladin is bare warscroll

and so on. It all feels... bland (not speaking of power levels here).

One liste i've considered is a drake list in tempest lord.
prosecutors are battleline in this allegiance so it means that you can basically create an entire flying army to benefit from the reroll one dice on the charge (which is insane stability and movement).

I know the drakes don't really worry about that but it allows for precision sniping and very slippery build, consider something like this:

Tempest lords:
knight draconis (celestial menagerie so all the drakes got -1 to get wounded)
Krondys
celestant prime

2 drakes
2 drakes
3 prosecutors
3 prosecutors

you're at 1980pts, everyone go fast, can shoot and be everywhere and it fits into the one drop battalion.
Maybe you can get the 2 units of drakes to merge into one big unit of 4 to get the sweet bonus from the knight on them but it's up to you (i'm afraid of big debuff such as be'lakor and things like that).

I think it's pretty solid and you can do tons of stuff.
 

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, loky100 said:

The thing I've been thinking about with Stormdrake guard is that its a monster so each one they kill they get 1 point.

This is a lot of points and they will kill a few of them. You bleeding so many points to your enemies with these.

Since games are a lot closer then before could be the swing that makes it a loss.
Just something I don't think many people are thinking about.

It’s max one VP per player turn however, and 9W on a 3+ is not trivial to get through- especially if you go first and nuke their main damage unit on the off.

[jeanfluflu]

3 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

I’m not sure we can say better. Lots of abilities removed, some new ones added, and in both cases some of questionable value (lol Exorcist). Some points up, some down. Feels like sidegrades in a few places.

Dracolines are arguably the biggest beneficiary and they compete with Dragons. The wizards all lost something, but came down in points, and some of them do their thing a bit better. I think I prefer a cheaper LAoGC that teleports without vials and prime electrids (rip username)? I’m not sure. Think i prefer a more expensive Tauralon that has 2 casts though. Like I said hard to evaluate.

 

Tauralon is not worth it anymore, unless you pick aventis he's a one cast sorcerer.

[Mark Williams]

 I agree with the point made that we got a slight bump to an overall pretty bad tome. I do think the water rose, and I’m sure happy about that. But yes it feels like they sorta nerfed everything that used to work, just enough so that we need to buy a bunch of new stuff if we want the good stuff. It feels like the marketing strategy is more transparent than ever here.

Don’t get me wrong though. I preordered everything. Haha. I can’t wait to get my mitts on some new dragons.

[Elephant_fresh]

17 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

It’s max one VP per player turn however, and 9W on a 3+ is not trivial to get through- especially if you go first and nuke their main damage unit on the off.

Not to mention that you get extra VP for completing battle tactics. On balance they benefit from being Monsters

[Marcvs]

16 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

One liste i've considered is a drake list in tempest lord.
prosecutors are battleline in this allegiance so it means that you can basically create an entire flying army to benefit from the reroll one dice on the charge (which is insane stability and movement).

I know the drakes don't really worry about that but it allows for precision sniping and very slippery build, consider something like this:

Tempest lords:
knight draconis (celestial menagerie so all the drakes got -1 to get wounded)
Krondys
celestant prime

2 drakes
2 drakes
3 prosecutors
3 prosecutors

you're at 1980pts, everyone go fast, can shoot and be everywhere and it fits into the one drop battalion.
Maybe you can get the 2 units of drakes to merge into one big unit of 4 to get the sweet bonus from the knight on them but it's up to you (i'm afraid of big debuff such as be'lakor and things like that).

I think it's pretty solid and you can do tons of stuff.
 

you see, that's a good example. It's a nice list, super cool on the table and surely fun to play.

but: the allegiance abilities are almost pointless, you're not getting anything from stormkeep so go scions by default but everything is fast and probably benefits starting on the table (minus the prime, but he goes in reserve thanks to the warscroll). True, you have basically maximized the effect of the sub-allegiance and all you have to remember for your faction rules is... reroll one die on the charge?

idk, it's not... exciting? interesting? (again, not a matter of being strong or not)

[PrimeElectrid]

Now I’m not so blinded by dragons it has sunk in that there’s only one way for melee units to interact with Scions of the Storm and that’s limited to one unit per turn, Thunderstrike only, with an Imperatant.

Once at a time is par for the course with this book, but I guess unlike with Gavriel you can keep doing this while you have stuff in Scions, whereas Sureheart was a one and done.

The Thunderstrike restriction is frustrating however, and it feels bad that there’s still only one way to buff a unit charge out of Scions. Just as before it was do it with Gav and Evocators or don’t bother, now it’s do it with Annihilators and an Imperatant or don’t bother. At least now we have an alternative in Stormkeeps, but why isn’t there more choice to interact with what is an allegiance ability? This was my exact same complaint with the 2nd Ed book and they’ve just repeated it with different units.

[Elephant_fresh]

22 minutes ago, jeanfluflu said:

Tauralon is not worth it anymore, unless you pick aventis he's a one cast sorcerer.

All of our magic characters remaining one cast wizards is the most surprising thing to me. Do the rules writers not realise how many armies have an abundance of 2 cast wizards for fewer points. 3+ armour just isn't that good with all of the mortal wounds flying around these days