AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Rachmani]

So far the discussion seems to somewhat ignore conditional battlelines. So I want to put that back on the menu.

Scarlet Doom & Quicksilver Dead let you do things you otherwise couldn’t do, by filling your battleline with (potential) hammers. So we‘re free to play more glaivewraiths for example >.< .

No, but seriously, I think that’s another layer to our otherwise very solid roster of troops. When you have units that are that close together in terms of output and durability, everything counts.

[Rors]

Okay I've looked through the second tab and you've somewhat won me over, the points efficiency of harridans once they have their buff up is more points efficient than I had thought. Especially given the buff works in both player rounds.

That being said, the BG buff is a true self buf as they only need to charge, harridans need support or to fight their first round at subpar stats.

Ontop of that, harridan kinda cap out there. You can't get more than a +1/+1, if you consider that you've likely invested some form of support to chip off wounds, say an arcane bolt earlier, than by fair comparison, a GoS could cast a different spell and the +1 wound aura would be in effect, you could also actually use all out attack with BG. Now we're looking at 2/2/-1/1 and for the same cost of one support character (and a command point). Perhaps 3/2-1/1 with a bonus spell like soul cage since you're not using a command point with harridans. Although the fact that you can use all out attack is itself an option they don't get.

This brings me back to, unsupported, BG do better usually when they charge and they're good enough against low saves since they die quicker naturally anyway. If you've invested in supporting harridans to get their buff active (although there's support outside a small hero but it's still at some form of comparative cost) then you could also put a roughly equivalent support in for BG and get better results.

Harridans don't get their buff as easily (not necessarily that hard but not as easy as just charging and with more opportunity cost) and they hit their potential ceiling early. That being said, I definitely underated them earlier and being active in both phases is double the bonus.

[Arzalyn]

14 hours ago, lare2 said:

Tabled giants the top of turn 5. Initial impressions are we hit like a sledgehammer in our turn but are really susceptible to being wiped out in the opponents. I reckon my opponent could've easily won if he got the double turn going into turn 2.

Got the same impression in the two games I played using the list @EnixLHQ posted some pages ago. During our turn we can do a good amount of damage (specially if you get good charge rolls), but we don't take a strike back that well, unless you are using all out debuffs and things like the Krulghast.

[Frowny]

@RorsThis is basically where I ended up. 

One challenge I can see with the army as a whole is how to keep your defenses up in their turn. -1 to be hit, and for harridans -1 to be wounded are great but its also only during your turn when you can already pick your engagements. Nothing is particularly strong defensively, even with the 5++ ability active. I think corner pinning charges will be key.

 

Also, what do people hope to do if given turn 1?

I do know that many battleplans with even 18 inch starts, it will be very hard to do much damage. 8 inch movement on most things leaves a 10 inch charge, and deepstrike charges for a 9+ are just as unreliable. Neither seems very likely to do much. Thus why I ended up with hexwraiths to either screen or move 24 and make a 15 inch long wall to maintain board presence. 

I'm not sure what else is available for a turn 1 attack- I think the deepstrike happens at start of movement phase, so you can't deepstrike and then cast close range spells, so it seems like board positioning is the best that can be done.

Some allied direwolves as a big screen at least seem cheap and can keep up. 

This army really seems like it would want t2 for the chance at the double and targets within 8inch move charge range and 12 inch spell range.

[Rors]

I think dreadblades will be invaluable defensively. The warscroll says each unit can copy the generals command, with no restriction on range. It's each u it so you can take multiple dreadblades and copy the command more than once from my reading of it.

We also have some warscrolls with free commands.

That could be multiple redeploy or multiple 5+ wards. If you make the on foot knight your general and took 4 dreadblades for arguments sake, that 5 redeploys. For FREE!

This army kinda feels like a combat centric KO. Lots of movement and tricks but getting double turned will often be a huge risk.

I'm not sure that many dreadblades is worth the opportunity cost but it'd be worth trying.

Actually, might need a FAQ now I think about it. Redeploy procs when the enemy moves in range. So the general would have to be able to issue it first by something triggering redeploy. The question is then, the warscroll states dreadblades can use it, I believe warscroll trumps book core rules.. so they'd issue it but it only comes into effect when an enemy moves into range? Or because it was procc'd by that first instance, you just move an extra 4 units even though nothing is close, or you just can't repeat that command

Edited May 6, 2022 by Rors
expanded idea

[Ranzou]

I don't thinks that 1cp equal to 145pts. You can easily get more cps just by farming battalions.

[Rors]

3 minutes ago, Ranzou said:

I don't thinks that 1cp equal to 145pts. You can easily get more cps just by farming battalions.

Sure but then you can't repeat the same command.

You also get a warscroll baked in. If we take the old one CP is worth 50 points, it's a 95 hero, which for their base stats isn't bad at all.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Rors

[EnixLHQ]

6 hours ago, lare2 said:

After having slept on it and mulled on it some more, I wanted to give a summary of how it went. Apologies for the wall of text but I couldn’t seem to see if there was a way to hide it all behind a spoiler tab.

Subfaction:

Emerald Host was actually really good and I rolled high to target 4 units. This really helped chip away at his general and 3 of the little guys, one of which was hiding in the backfield but still died to this turn 4. This combined really well with the Terminexus, which was outstanding, especially considering he had no magic to despell it. 2d3 isn’t to be scoffed at, especially when combined with Lady O’s shooting, making it 2d3+d6 mortals per turn.

Lady O:

Speaking of Lady O, she was class. As predicted, she was too much of a target and two of the big lads targeted her throughout the game. We were playing the vice as well so there was always going to be a rush for the centre of the board. I took the spot early and he never managed to shift her. Grief-stricken was amazing when it went off but I only managed it once. Putting a markerlight onto a unit, when combined with all the other WoT debuffs, savages a unit. Having Soul Cage on her really helped as well. Knowing that I had a guaranteed fight last on a unit allowed me to choose -1 save when I rolled high. She also hits pretty hard as well, especially when combined with Stun. I could never seem to remember Mortarch of Grief though so missed out a lot there. 

Spirit Hosts:

These chaps were grand. They tanked a lot for Lady O – something like 18+ wounds. Two units died protecting her and the third was depleted but she healed it back up. I went for three separate units as I wanted to farm WoT. Glad I did because the first time I did it, my brain hurt with trying to keep track of all the debuffs. Ended up getting some pen and paper. Can’t remember now exactly what it was but I do remember -3 to the save roll. Spirit Hosts hit very hard when they’re suddenly essentially on -3 rend, especially when hitting on 3+ (Grief-stricken) and wounding on 3+ (Nightmare Lantern). Any concerns I had about trying to kill a giant per turn were quickly assuaged.

GoS:

Really happy with this chap. His Nightmare Lantern came in handy so many times and his spell just continued to replenish units. Couldn’t have asked for more. In the end he just hung out with Lady O and was never targeted, being the perceived less attractive option to kill. Yeah, nothing much to say about him but that he’s a dandy utility unit. He did help stack WoT mind and his damage isn’t too shabby. Felt confident charging him in as well knowing Soul Cage was in effect.

Chainrasps:

Loved them. The two units of 10 just wandered on the wings. One unit died to a big lad but the other ended up protecting the Krulghast in the later game. Yeah, they were handy. The big unit of 30, however, joined in the fight in the centre. They were barely scratched when they were targeted – an unmodifiable 5+ save and a 5+ ward really does have an effect. Plus they added to WoT and these little dudes, attacking twice and in two ranks, really hit hard when they’re essentially at, for example, -3 rend.

Dreadscythe:

I didn’t know what to do with these girls. I had both units in deepstrike with the Krulghast. Dropped all of them in and targeted the little giants. The Krulghast shot at one, damaging him, before I failed one out of two charges. The unit that got in did all right, taking off 10 wounds, but then he swung back and wiped it out. In his turn he then charged the second unit and wiped that out as well. So much for the Dreadscythe. Don’t know really what to think about them yet.

Krulghast:

This chap just ran away when his Dreadscythe died and pestered the enemy via shooting. Having that -1 to damage really helped in the centre of the board as well. Yeah, he was OK. I wasn’t massively blown away with him but he did his part.

All in, I was very happy with how the game went. There’s a lot to keep up with and my brain was spinning by the end of the game. As said, we hit hard in our turn but in theirs I think we really do have the potential to crumble. Trying to avoid the double turn happening to us has been on my mind all day. I had a lot of drops and was forced to go first. I do think that if he’d won priority turn 2 I would have been in a lot of trouble. I think we’re always gonna have a lot of drops so really need to plan for being double turned

Thanks for the excellent recap! This is a great start.

2 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

Got the same impression in the two games I played using the list @EnixLHQ posted some pages ago. During our turn we can do a good amount of damage (specially if you get good charge rolls), but we don't take a strike back that well, unless you are using all out debuffs and things like the Krulghast.

 

Are you able to recall your games? Actual table feedback is invaluable right now.

[Domowoj]

3 hours ago, Ranzou said:

I don't thinks that 1cp equal to 145pts. You can easily get more cps just by farming battalions.

But you get to use the Harrow ability once each battle round. So it’s more like five command points on a teleporting guy, right?

[Arzalyn]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Are you able to recall your games? Actual table feedback is invaluable right now.

I played two games so far, but the first one I never rolled so bad in my entire gaming life (never got more than 1 mortal from emerald host effect) and last one we had to end by the end of turn 2, so don't have much to report. My main take way is that during our turn thing work really well (specially if you get good rolls for the charges), but we struggle a little in the opponent turn if we don't have our debuffs set up. The units with 5+ ward command/spell combined with the -1 to hit  and -1 damage aura could take a punch, but the ones without them were wiped out rather easily. I want to get more games in, but I starting to value the Krulghast more than the Torment for this reason. I'm also a little skeptical about Kurdoss, the -3 rend is good to have, but he didn't do much more damage than a 10 Bladegheist unit did.

I gonna play a couple more next week, I will take more detailed notes and post how they went!

[Benlisted]

6 hours ago, Rors said:

Okay I've looked through the second tab and you've somewhat won me over, the points efficiency of harridans once they have their buff up is more points efficient than I had thought. Especially given the buff works in both player rounds.

That being said, the BG buff is a true self buf as they only need to charge, harridans need support or to fight their first round at subpar stats.

Ontop of that, harridan kinda cap out there. You can't get more than a +1/+1, if you consider that you've likely invested some form of support to chip off wounds, say an arcane bolt earlier, than by fair comparison, a GoS could cast a different spell and the +1 wound aura would be in effect, you could also actually use all out attack with BG. Now we're looking at 2/2/-1/1 and for the same cost of one support character (and a command point). Perhaps 3/2-1/1 with a bonus spell like soul cage since you're not using a command point with harridans. Although the fact that you can use all out attack is itself an option they don't get.

This brings me back to, unsupported, BG do better usually when they charge and they're good enough against low saves since they die quicker naturally anyway. If you've invested in supporting harridans to get their buff active (although there's support outside a small hero but it's still at some form of comparative cost) then you could also put a roughly equivalent support in for BG and get better results.

Harridans don't get their buff as easily (not necessarily that hard but not as easy as just charging and with more opportunity cost) and they hit their potential ceiling early. That being said, I definitely underated them earlier and being active in both phases is double the bonus.

I think this is all fair for sure - if you need to actually deal a large chunk of wounds to something then either 2+/2+ bladegheists are going to be pushing through over 20 wounds before saves, or a big block of rasps and/or grims is the way.  I think most lists will want a hammer and those undoubtedly hit higher absolute wounds dealt than harridans ever can thanks to their base size and 1" reach, and the boost to hit and wound capping at +1.  But there's a limit to how many of those hammers we can support/fit in whilst still taking advantage of our excellent mobility, and for just bog standard brawlers that need minimal support (yes something to activate the buff but I don't think any NH unit should ever be alone anyway) I think harridans are the best bet.  That's what I'm trying to make people aware of with the maths!

[lare2]

4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

This is a great start.

Dude, your blog got me through 2nd edition. Hoping you do another for 3rd!

[EnixLHQ]

2 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Dude, your blog got me through 2nd edition. Hoping you do another for 3rd!

You're the first to say it in a while. I was actually considering taking the whole bit down. I had hundreds of hours of play under 2nd, I really doubt being able to do that in 3rd.

[Rachmani]

Well, if it helps, you got me into NH as well.

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

I was actually considering taking the whole bit down.

Nooooo, it has to live on. And we as a Nighthaunt community, definitely need a successor for the new codex 👌

I'm sure everyone can help out here and there.

Edited May 6, 2022 by The_Dudemeister

[EnixLHQ]

2 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Nooooo, it has to live on. And we as a Nighthaunt community, definitely need a successor for the new codex 👌

I'm sure everyone can help out here and there.

The best way to do it is getting games under our belts, collectively, and then reporting the results good or bad.

[lare2]

4 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

The best way to do it is getting games under our belts, collectively, and then reporting the results good or bad.

I've a game lined up again for next Thursday. Aiming to see what Kurdoss can do this time in a Scarlet Doom list as I should have my 40 Bladegheists up and running. Will let you know how it goes. 

[Landohammer]

7 hours ago, Frowny said:

@RorsThis is basically where I ended up. 

One challenge I can see with the army as a whole is how to keep your defenses up in their turn. -1 to be hit, and for harridans -1 to be wounded are great but its also only during your turn when you can already pick your engagements. Nothing is particularly strong defensively, even with the 5++ ability active. I think corner pinning charges will be key.

 

Also, what do people hope to do if given turn 1?

I do know that many battleplans with even 18 inch starts, it will be very hard to do much damage. 8 inch movement on most things leaves a 10 inch charge, and deepstrike charges for a 9+ are just as unreliable. Neither seems very likely to do much. Thus why I ended up with hexwraiths to either screen or move 24 and make a 15 inch long wall to maintain board presence. 

I'm not sure what else is available for a turn 1 attack- I think the deepstrike happens at start of movement phase, so you can't deepstrike and then cast close range spells, so it seems like board positioning is the best that can be done.

Some allied direwolves as a big screen at least seem cheap and can keep up. 

This army really seems like it would want t2 for the chance at the double and targets within 8inch move charge range and 12 inch spell range.

Not much as changed for us regarding turn 1. You either screen and prepare for the alpha or you deepstrike and hope for the 9+.

The coach is still a pretty good tool for sending into your opponents lines early on, and with its teleport and base size, it can really muck up your opponents movement plans. 

I think the trick to winning with our army is to mitigate what charges your opponent makes on their turn, so you can rush forward and capitalize on WOT during your own turn. So screens and tarpits still have a lot of value. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Tine to bust out the Soulsnare Shackles!

[Arzalyn]

2 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

You're the first to say it in a while. I was actually considering taking the whole bit down. I had hundreds of hours of play under 2nd, I really doubt being able to do that in 3rd.

Just to add another voice, your guide is the best one I ever read! It even inspired to try doing something similar for Sylvaneth when the new book arrives.

Will try my best to help here!

[EnixLHQ]

24 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

Just to add another voice, your guide is the best one I ever read! It even inspired to try doing something similar for Sylvaneth when the new book arrives.

Will try my best to help here!

Well gosh. I suppose I can give it a shot after the official release. But I'll need a lot of play data from you guys.

[Rors]

6 hours ago, Domowoj said:

But you get to use the Harrow ability once each battle round. So it’s more like five command points on a teleporting guy, right?

You get the Harrow ability once each battle round for each Harrow because the warscroll says 'this unit'. So you use one command point with the general, potential not even there depending on what your general is, then they copy it without any more command points being spent.

Could be a bunch of defense in their turn it you could reroll a ton of charges or get heaps of all out attack in yours for either one or zero command points.

Honest Warhammer also noted if the boatboo is general he can teleport and take a unit with him, then Harrows could do the same. Deepstrike your whole army again every turn for one command point.

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Well gosh. I suppose I can give it a shot after the official release. But I'll need a lot of play data from you guys.

I'd also like to pitch in and say you educated me so much on every synergy. I always kept coming back to your blog to re-read your content. You're very good at this and it helped a ton of us I'm sure.

[dmorley21]

4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

The best way to do it is getting games under our belts, collectively, and then reporting the results good or bad.

I’ve got 5 2.0 games lined up next weekend 😂

[dmorley21]

2 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I’ve got 5 2.0 games lined up next weekend 😂

By this I mean the old tome. Am rocking the incarnate (and Nagash)… so at least I’ll have a feel for the Incarnate.