AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

Looking at the page itself; Awlrach assists in movement shenanigans, has some form of impact hits with the prow, and supposedly the oar hurts.

The craven throne crossbowmen sound like they have some form of synergy with Kurdoss himself, perhaps they will get to shoot when he makes melee attacks

Edited March 24, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Boggler]

I have another tournament next weekend. I'm still all in on Nagash and I'm determined to have a good time!

Here is the list I'll run: Nagash, Portal, Emerald Host, Prized Sorcery,

Spoiler

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Emerald Host
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (955)*
- Allies
Spirit Torment (115)*
- General
- Command Trait: Lord of the Host
- Artefact: Pendant of the Fell Wind

Battleline
5 x Hexwraiths (150)*
6 x Spirit Hosts (250)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Chainrasp Horde (190)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Chainrasp Horde (95)*

Units
10 x Dreadscythe Harridans (160)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 955 / 400
Wounds: 89
Drops: 1
 

It was becoming clear that Lady Olynder wasn't pulling her weight. Maybe it was bad luck with her output, maybe it's her short range. I'm not sure. In any case, she doesn't make the cut this time around.

This list is a mismash of Nate Trentanelli and @dmorley21

Maybe the new battletome will give us something spammable to go along with Nagash?

[dmorley21]

@Boggler

I agree with you that Olynder is a bit of a trap if you take her with Nagash. Seems it should work, but it just doesn’t. 
 

Hope it goes well!

[That Guy]

When i read the post, i got the feeling we might lose spectral summons. I hope not. If that’s not the case we can have 2 units teleporting per turn perhaps, or maybe if you make boatboy the general he can bring 2 units(or more) with him. I also feel like he might get some assassination tool. I hope it will be a “model” instead of a hero ability. He’s totally going to do impact hits as well. Hopefully he’ll be a solid buff piece. He looks cool af, so i want him to be really strong. 

[EnixLHQ]

It'd be cool that as a hero and a unit that can be removed during play, that he allowed units to go back into the Underworlds and then redeploy closer than the 9" standard. I'd love to be able to bring in several units into reasonable charge range at the risk of losing the hero that enabled it.

[Boggler]

9 minutes ago, That Guy said:

When i read the post, i got the feeling we might lose spectral summons.

It could be like the Stormcast where you decide to be either Scions of the Storm or Stormkeep.

We'd hopefully get benefits for both styles of play. Reserves/Deploy.

The Spectral Summons would be reworked to be like Seraphon Lords of Space and Time.

Again, who knows?

[darkdaysdawn]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:23 AM, Liquidsteel said:

"the spectral bolts of the Craventhrone Guard always hit their mark"...

Hits on 4s 🤣

Seriously, and only if within 12".  Pretty useless vs others, especially Kruleboyz and other new "Age of Shooting" units who can double that range and then some, even with crossbows. 

Furthermore, low damage output and no mortals, while others are shooting poison at us? 

Hope there are some additional buffs in the new book, else I'm not sure what to do with these guys. 

[dmorley21]

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

When i read the post, i got the feeling we might lose spectral summons. I hope not. If that’s not the case we can have 2 units teleporting per turn perhaps, or maybe if you make boatboy the general he can bring 2 units(or more) with him. I also feel like he might get some assassination tool. I hope it will be a “model” instead of a hero ability. He’s totally going to do impact hits as well. Hopefully he’ll be a solid buff piece. He looks cool af, so i want him to be really strong. 

I've been expecting to lose Spectral Summons. Amongst the 3.0 books so far, I believe only Fyreslayers have kept an army wide command ability. 

I am happy to read the description and hear that it looks like they'll keep movement shenanigans as a part of Nighthaunt. While I've been underwhelmed by the revealed rules of the new stuff just like everyone else, I remain optimistic because I think the 3.0 books have been really good. They all have a distinct playstyle that matches their lore and I think even the lower end of books (Fyreslayers/Kruleboyz) are 3-2 armies. I'm excited and hopeful to see what Nighthaunt end up looking like once we have the new book in front of us. 

[Darkrich]

I hope we get models that do more than one damage per attack, or better ways for model recursion. Spectral lure is great, but it is often dispelled or fails. Also black coach needs an upgrade.

[Dogmantra]

42 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I've been expecting to lose Spectral Summons. Amongst the 3.0 books so far, I believe only Fyreslayers have kept an army wide command ability.

Would not be at all suprised if the new boat chap gets an ability of some sort that teleports him and drags a nearby unit along, to replace the Dreadblade Harrow teleport + spectral summons

[Fellman]

Any chance that the crossbows and the boat ghost is duel kits? Spes charakter and unnamed in one?
I hope

Edited March 24, 2022 by Fellman

[Jabbuk]

I'm very hopeful for what's to come, don't get me wrong, I have a buttload of NH painted and ready to play with...

Rant on: But I find it crazy how different some books/rules feel from each other. It's clear that, because the bolts of the crossbow dudes go through walls and ignore LoS, they were extra careful with rules putting it at 4+, 4+ -1rend, 1 dam.. a pretty weak profile in 3.0. meanwhile, you have the Idoneth book where every single warscroll are just incredibly strong, and where extra carefulness was clearly not used here. I'm having a hard time understand how they write books and rules. It is so inconsistent.

Yes their scroll is only partly shown and could reveal some amazing potential, but when I saw the preview with 12' range, 4+4+, -1rend, 1 damage, I literally lolled. Rant off.

[Vastus]

I have a faint suspicion the Nighthaunt tome will be the flavorful one, while DoK will be the powerful one. Like FS and IDK.

 

Oh well, wasn't a tournament player anyway. Just give me cool subfactions and I'm happy.

[Malakithe]

I can see the Crossboos working kinda like a unit from 40k. Deepstrike them close to their target and shoot. Depending on other rules and support heroes and assuming the deepstriking mechanic is still there for the army wide ability, you could drop them down 12" out and fire through terrain or whatever to pick off something

[Malakithe]

11 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I'm very hopeful for what's to come, don't get me wrong, I have a buttload of NH painted and ready to play with...

Rant on: But I find it crazy how different some books/rules feel from each other. It's clear that, because the bolts of the crossbow dudes go through walls and ignore LoS, they were extra careful with rules putting it at 4+, 4+ -1rend, 1 dam.. a pretty weak profile in 3.0. meanwhile, you have the Idoneth book where every single warscroll are just incredibly strong, and where extra carefulness was clearly not used here. I'm having a hard time understand how they write books and rules. It is so inconsistent.

Yes their scroll is only partly shown and could reveal some amazing potential, but when I saw the preview with 12' range, 4+4+, -1rend, 1 damage, I literally lolled. Rant off.

Ive been saying stuff like this for a long time. There is no consistency at all. Try to look at Idoneth, then Fyreslayers, then these guys...it will give you a headache trying to figure out how GW thinks

[That Guy]

We’ve always been a tricksy army and my biggest wish with the new tome is that we stay that way. It is an iconic way of play for the nighthaunt. If anything i hope we maintain 1 of the strongest spell lores and our movement shenanigans, especially teleporting around. The new boatguy gives a positive light on that, but i do hope there is more in the tome to amplify these tricksy plays. Out of all the armies i own, honestly nighthaunt and lumineth have been the ones i could dig deepest in the toolkit of gameplay, now recently i can add Idoneth to that, which gained an incredible book as well. So far not a single 3.0 book has been dissapointing. People had their reservations on the nurgle units as well and they turned out to be fine. If anything i would say the ork sub factions other than ironjawz came out to be the weakest, but even than Kruleboyz still do their thing. Let’s not talk about bonesplitterz. 
Our army always benefitted big time from tricksy play, combined with a lot of utility and synergetic buffs and don’t forget there’s going to be some new sub factions too. I understand the information shared about the new units have been slightly lackluster, but that might be an indication that our tome will have some very powerful abilities for our army. I suggest to keep your judgement reserved for when we know more about the battlebox(which btw will include updated rules for myrmourn, bladegheist, chainghasts and spirit torment as well) and for when the tome drops. And even with the battlebox, look at Fury of the Deep. Those Allopex sharks were raised to 10 wounds and when the tome dropped lowered to 8 wounds again. In all honesty until we know the tome rules and had some games in, we just can’t write anything off as of yet.

Edited March 25, 2022 by That Guy

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I'm very hopeful for what's to come, don't get me wrong, I have a buttload of NH painted and ready to play with...

Rant on: But I find it crazy how different some books/rules feel from each other. It's clear that, because the bolts of the crossbow dudes go through walls and ignore LoS, they were extra careful with rules putting it at 4+, 4+ -1rend, 1 dam.. a pretty weak profile in 3.0. meanwhile, you have the Idoneth book where every single warscroll are just incredibly strong, and where extra carefulness was clearly not used here. I'm having a hard time understand how they write books and rules. It is so inconsistent.

Yes their scroll is only partly shown and could reveal some amazing potential, but when I saw the preview with 12' range, 4+4+, -1rend, 1 damage, I literally lolled. Rant off.

Here's the thing: Ignoring cover is not even a strong ability. It is worse than dealing most of your damage in mortal wounds, which all the other good shooting units do. Because those mortals usually trigger on unmodified 6s to hit, they ignore the -1 to hit from cover (and Look Out, Sir!). And because they ignore saves, they ignore the +1 to saves from cover. But they also ignore saves period, so they are just better.

Make no mistake: A two attacks, 4+/4+/-1/1 shooting profile is dismal on a unit of 5 that may not even be able to reinforce beyond 10. 2.5 wounds worth of rend -1 damage per shooting phase doesn't even scare chaff units like skeletons. It's chip damage.

The question is: What could in theory make these guys worth using?

I don't think these guys will be tanky. They look like they will probably be 1 wound, 8" move, 4+ ethereal, bravery 10. They also don't look like they will have a good melee profile. But even if they are both tanky and fighty: There exists a unit that is almost exactly like this in the game right now, Stormcast Vanguard-Hunters. Same shooting profile, but fighty and tanky. They even have the ability to deepstrike and ambush every turn. 125 points for 5 and nobody takes them.

If they get serious offensive buffs somehow, their damage might become good. But it would probably require access to +1 damage (so literally doubling their damage output) because even +1 to hit and wound only brings them up to parity with 100 point chaff like Freeguild Crossbows and Handgunners. But then again those units also have a lot of buff potential and higher range, so it would be playing a game of catch up with units that are not even that good.

The best case scenario I see is that Craventhrone Guard are cheap (sub 90 points) and get the ability to bodyguard for any nearby heroes. That would help protect all those small foot heroes Nighthaunt are forced to rely on. It would be a sad use for these models, because then you are basically taking them to just be a bag of wounds. But unless there is some kind of completely out of left field allegiance ability, it's how I see this one probably playing out.

[That Guy]

11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The best case scenario I see is that Craventhrone Guard are cheap (sub 90 points) and get the ability to bodyguard for any nearby heroes. That would help protect all those small foot heroes Nighthaunt are forced to rely on. It would be a sad use for these models, because then you are basically taking them to just be a bag of wounds. But unless there is some kind of completely out of left field allegiance ability, it's how I see this one probably playing out.

I’d love to see them have bodyguard rules. It was always awkward to go emerald host and dedicate hexwraiths to an on foot general like olynder for example. It took away the potential of the unit, because they can’t always use their movement to the fullest effect in that case, or use their offensive buffs well. Craventhrone bodyguard would give us a dedicated on foot unit, while hexwraith could be more focused to be dedicated to cavalry heroes and being more offensive again. Also, Olynder warmaster please.

Edited March 25, 2022 by That Guy

[Kadeton]

11 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Also, Olynder warmaster please.

Olynder buffs in general please! She should be a centrepiece hero on par with the likes of Be'lakor, Yndrasta, the other Mortarchs, etc., in that mid-300s point range.

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Olynder buffs in general please! She should be a centrepiece hero on par with the likes of Be'lakor, Yndrasta, the other Mortarchs, etc., in that mid-300s point range.

Honestly i've been thinking about it and I agree. Her impact should be the biggest of all units under the Nighthaunt, under Nagash. It would do her good to get a better ward and more wounds too.  Also crank up all her abilities. You shouldn't feel bad for taking her without a bodyguard unit and she's supposed to be 1 of Nagash's generals. Currently in terms of her impact she acts more like a slightly overtuned named hero, but not a mighty mortarch. In terms of the bravery mechanic around the army, I like keeping it since it's flavourful. It won't be as good against demons and other death units, but they are naturally less scared. What i'd like to see is a mechanic that hurts them too however. Perhaps it can work slightly like a nurgle infection counter, but with cumulative effects. The more terror points you build up the more different things 

Edited March 25, 2022 by That Guy

[EnixLHQ]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Here's the thing: Ignoring cover is not even a strong ability. It is worse than dealing most of your damage in mortal wounds, which all the other good shooting units do. Because those mortals usually trigger on unmodified 6s to hit, they ignore the -1 to hit from cover (and Look Out, Sir!). And because they ignore saves, they ignore the +1 to saves from cover. But they also ignore saves period, so they are just better.

Partial cover, yes. Full cover, no. You can have 2+/2+/-4/6, reroll everything, and still wouldn't be able to damage that unit 3" away behind a solid wall or Prismatic Palisade. Except for the Soulhunters who can. The key part of their ability is that line of sight is irrelevant to them. Set up your terrain, spells, and larger units like the Black Coach to induce full cover and gain the ability to target your intended target while keeping these guys completely shielded from counters. If the enemy's eyes can't see even a single part of this unit, there's no answer to them.

This is why it's a 12" range. This would be supremely broken at 24". You could set this unit down behind a garrison wall or some random terrain half a board away and never risk them getting counter attacked by ranged weapons or spells. Gotta at least bring them in closer for the chance of being juked, backstabbed, or rushed.

And with the one ability being revealed so far, we still know they can get the +1 to hit from a KoS and RR1s from a Spirit Torment. The new book might make the melee only buffs we have more universal or adaptable, and whatever else is on their warscroll might shore up anything else lacking in the guys. Heavily hinted to be Kurdoss' bodyguards, they may attack in tandem, or they can bring him along or vice versa, or he buffs them in an unique way. For all we know, since they "always kill his targets first" it could be that when paired together you effectively use his attack profile to initiate combat and whenever he hits they get a free shot. Of if he does damage, their damage becomes mortal wounds. Who knows?

So unless they completely take away our ability to deploy where we want to by removing From the Underworlds, these guys actually stand to be effective assassins.

5 hours ago, That Guy said:

I’d love to see them have bodyguard rules. It was always awkward to go emerald host and dedicate hexwraiths to an on foot general like olynder for example. It took away the potential of the unit, because they can’t always use their movement to the fullest effect in that case, or use their offensive buffs well. Craventhrone bodyguard would give us a dedicated on foot unit, while hexwraith could be more focused to be dedicated to cavalry heroes and being more offensive again. Also, Olynder warmaster please.

 

5 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Olynder buffs in general please! She should be a centrepiece hero on par with the likes of Be'lakor, Yndrasta, the other Mortarchs, etc., in that mid-300s point range.

 

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

Honestly i've been thinking about it and I agree. Her impact should be the biggest of all units under the Nighthaunt, under Nagash. It would do her good to get a better ward and more wounds too.  Also crank up all her abilities. You shouldn't feel bad for taking her without a bodyguard unit and she's supposed to be 1 of Nagash's generals. Currently in terms of her impact she acts more like a slightly overtuned named hero, but not a mighty mortarch. In terms of the bravery mechanic around the army, I like keeping it since it's flavourful. It won't be as good against demons and other death units, but they are naturally less scared. What i'd like to see is a mechanic that hurts them too however. Perhaps it can work slightly like a nurgle infection counter, but with cumulative effects. The more terror points you build up the more different things 

Olynder has long been called out as being the weakest of the Mortarchs and by a mile. GW attempted to address this a few times indirectly, via Emerald Host as a battalion, then as a subfaction, and then introducing the Sorrowmourn Choir as a battalion before they nixed those from matched play.

I think it's likely to see that return. In lore Olynder has total control over her spirits and was chosen to be a Mortarch specifically because she had the ability to corral the otherwise wild and heedless dead. The other Mortarchs had to use magic to compel service, and only Nagash himself could do it passively, but then Olynder was doing it the whole time via her grief.

So our new book might either bring back Sorrowmourn as a subfaction with all the bells and whistles that would bring, retool Emerald Host to truly be about the fallen knights of Dolorum and to specifically follow a Knight of Shrouds, and/or make Oylnder count as general whenever she is included and maybe evoke bodyguards with any of a select kinds of units.

Or, she might finally get her glow up and be on par with the other Mortarchs. If they don't buff her wounds or damage mitigation, they may make her damage output compensate for it. Or finally give her a grief mechanic.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

This is why it's a 12" range. This would be supremely broken at 24". You could set this unit down behind a garrison wall or some random terrain half a board away and never risk them getting counter attacked by ranged weapons or spells. Gotta at least bring them in closer for the chance of being juked, backstabbed, or rushed.

I deliberately didn't include the line-of-sight stuff in my initial post because I don't want to keep bringingup the "Sentinels are broken" meme all the time, but this is of course what Sentinels already do at a 30" range and dealing mortal wounds:

Quote

At the start of your shooting phase, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 30" of this unit’s High Sentinel that is not visible to them. If you do so, you must choose the Lofted missile weapon characteristic for all attacks made with this unit’s Auralan Bows in that phase, but that enemy unit is treated as being visible to all friendly models from this unit until the end of that phase.

As for the Craventhrone Guard being good assassins, I will believe it when I see it. Not trying to be negative here, but in a world where the average foot hero can be on a 3+ or even 2+ fairly easily, I just don't think their current shooting profile has the juice to pull it off, even taking known buffs into account.

[EnixLHQ]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I deliberately didn't include the line-of-sight stuff in my initial post because I don't want to keep bringingup the "Sentinels are broken" meme all the time, but this is of course what Sentinels already do at a 30" range and dealing mortal wounds:

As for the Craventhrone Guard being good assassins, I will believe it when I see it. Not trying to be negative here, but in a world where the average foot hero can be on a 3+ or even 2+ fairly easily, I just don't think their current shooting profile has the juice to pull it off, even taking known buffs into account.

Okay, so, look at that a bit closer.

The Skyhawk Lantern ability fully relies on the High Sentinel to work. He can't see the target, and he has to be in range to use it. If the rest of his unit is out of range, or he's out of range while they are in range, he can't use the ability or it becomes hamstringed. Or, similarly, if the High Sentinel can see the unit in question, no go on the ability. This means that in order to use this you have to keep the unit back.

I don't have their book, so I can't tell you what the rest of the unit's weapon's profiles are.

But, I can tell you that Lunineth is a 3/2 army.

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not trying to be negative here...

But you are. And almost everyone else is.

Look, it's hard to stay positive. I know that. We have a bad history as an army and the way GW has treated us. I've written novels to GW on that fact (and even gotten some replies). But I much rather look at the reveals and the book coming out as GW finally recognizing what they've done to us as a faction and closing the gap. And we have to trust that's exactly what they are doing, otherwise what is the point?

Edited March 25, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[Boggler]

There is a difference between being negative and calling things out for being what they are.

The Craventhrone are going to come down to wounds and points. Bonus points for being battleline. (Reinforced 3 times)

I'd be OK at 120pts for five 2 wound models. Even with the previewed stats.

We have access to reroll 1's to hit aura. (Lothan) and hopefully get a +1 to hit aura from something when the warscrolls get streamlined to remove the command abilities.

That gives decent Unleash Hell damage in our castle and possibly has other rules to compliment that playstyle.

The Craventhrobe aren't an alpha unit for me.

Also, I used to think they were a unit of 4 and the banner guy was a separate low wound hero.

Who knows?

[Nightseer2012]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:23 AM, Liquidsteel said:

"the spectral bolts of the Craventhrone Guard always hit their mark"...

Hits on 4s 🤣