Free Unleash Hell from Warscrolls - how the Hell does it work?

[Zeblasky]

EDIT: Please sort this thread By Date so you would not get lost in the discussion!

So, Sisters of the Watch and Hadngunners overwatch got changed into this new rule for some reason. And this makes all of it very confusing.

The rule goes like this, kinda simular to the core batalion ability:
‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.’

Now, this raises some questions, besides the obvious "why Sisters went up 20 when they were nerfed at the same time?". Primarily though:

1) Can you use multiple free Unleash Hell(s) from different units in the same phase? Or can you use Unleash Hell Command Ability after using a free overwatch on a different unit?

2) Can you use both free and the usual Unleash Hell on the same unit in the same phase?

Because honestly, I have no idea, as rules are quite unclear on this. The most logical to think would be that this "free" Unleash Hell does not count as CA at all and does not conflict with the usual Unleash Hell. Otherwise, this would seem to be an incredibly stupid nerf to units that before were heavily balanced around the free counter charge overwatch (and without -1 to hit as well).

P.S. It is also quite ironic, that units without Warscroll overwatch benefit the most from Unleash Hell, while for Handgunners and SotW Unleash Hell CA has more of cumulative effect.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Lich King]

Benefiting from the “effects” from a command ability is different from Issuing and Receiving it. 

[Zeblasky]

23 minutes ago, Christopher Rowe said:

But doesn't the wording in the Sisters' ability specifically say that the unit has received the command? And Rule 6.0 says "a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase."

Did someone already make this argument and have it countered upthread? Reading this has thoroughly bamboozled me.

If you consider this a Command ability being received, then you can't use it more than once per turn in any way. If you considered Command ability only as something that goes through the "Spend CP, issue command, receive command, resolve effects" sequence, this is not a Command ability, thus it can be triggered every time the conditions are met, AND with Unleash Hell CA on top.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Howdyhedberg]

Did anyone send in a question about this to the AoS team?

 

I asked about the Loreseeker unique or not. I don't know if gw look on these threads, so it would be good if someone sent the question!

[Cosmicsheep]

12 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

If they didn't intend for it to work exactly like a normal CA (with the exceptions that no point is spent and they don't need to be ordered), why did they bother changing the scroll in the first place?

This 👍

[Zeblasky]

1 minute ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Did anyone send in a question about this to the AoS team?

 

I asked about the Loreseeker unique or not. I don't know if gw look on these threads, so it would be good if someone sent the question!

Already on it, almost finished a balanced email for AoSFAQ@gwplc.com , will see if this will lead to anything.

 

8 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

If they didn't intend for it to work exactly like a normal CA (with the exceptions that no point is spent and they don't need to be ordered), why did they bother changing the scroll in the first place?

May be to do a huge nerf to Handgunners and Sisters of the Watch out of the blue, may be just to standardize such rules across the warscrolls, who knows. Honestly, even intent here is not quite clear. And GW love to say that we should always follow rules RAW, but here even that is not quite possible.

[SentinelGuy]

3 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

May be to do a huge nerf to Handgunners and Sisters of the Watch out of the blue, may be just to standardize such rules across the warscrolls, who knows. Honestly, even intent here is not quite clear. And GW love to say that we should always follow rules RAW, but here even that is not quite possible.

I can kind of see why they might nerf SoW if they had concerns about mortal wound spam, but if that was the case they should also have smashed Lumineth Sentinels into the ground. I see no reason for nerfing handgunners really - were they that afraid of long guns?

[Zeblasky]

13 minutes ago, SentinelGuy said:

I can kind of see why they might nerf SoW if they had concerns about mortal wound spam, but if that was the case they should also have smashed Lumineth Sentinels into the ground. I see no reason for nerfing handgunners really - were they that afraid of long guns?

Also, Sisters of the Watch do Mortal wounds on a 6 to WOUND. Meaning, overwatch -1 to hit does actually affect them in a quite noticeable way, unlike Sentinels. So yea, I cannot see logic here.

[Zeblasky]

So, I've sent GW a letter to aosfaq@gwplc.com . Now do we wait a month or half a year for a FAQ? x)

Spoiler

Good day to you! First time writing such letter, as I'm relatively new to AoS, but it seems that as no one on forums can give a clear answer to this problem, I will have you ask directly.

 

So, Sisters of the Watch and Hadngunners overwatch got changed into this new rule. And this makes all of it very confusing. The rule, for reference:

‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.’

 

This rule is quite simular to the "free" Unleash Hell that you get from "Slayers" batalion ability, yet nowhere in the core rules is it possible to find answers as to how exactly does it work.

1) Can you use multiple "free" Unleash ****** from different units in the same phase? Or can you use Unleash Hell Command Ability after using a free overwatch on a different unit?

2) Can you use "free" Unleash ****** on a same unit multiple times if this unit get charged by multiple enemies?

2) Can you use both free and the usual Unleash Hell on the same unit in the same phase?

 

Right now, consensus on how to understand the rules RAW drifts to 2 conclusions:

1) Free Unleash hell or CA Unleash hell can only be used once per phase, never together.

2) Free Unleash hell can be used as many times as enemy units finish a charge near it, even when you in melee already (old overwatch restrictions have been removed), and you can also use UH CA on any unit on top.

Both of them feel over the top. First variant is a huge nerf to handgunners and Sisters, which, unlike many other units, were previously balanced around having access to free overwatch. Now they would suffer both cost increase( +5 for handgunners, +20(!) for Sisters), -1 to hit on their warscroll overwatch, having an option to only use it once across multiple units per phase AND no way of combining it with a CA UH. This simply seems counterproductive, when an introduction to a universal overwatch CA across the game actually badly hurts and limits units with warscroll overwatch, instead of benefiting them in any way. Second option also seems not what.... you have intended. While it could explain such a steep increase to SotW cost, unlimited overwatch would definetly be too much to handle for most armies.

 

As to why there is uncertainty about this, it all depends on uderstanding certain part of 6.1 of Core Rules - "you cannot use the same command ability more than once". What qualifies as "using" the command ability? Having effects from a CA apply your unit in any way? That's a variant number 1. But the whole 6.1 part is called "Using Command Abilities", and in it, using the command ability is a sequence if spending a CP, issuing, receiving and applying the CA. By that logic, warscroll Unleash Hell does not qualify as "using the command ability", so it's variant number 2. Oh, and by that logic, when you use a CA, but do not spend a command point for some reason, you also do not "use a command ability". Leading either to unability to use this CA at all or actually not "using" this this CA, but getting the benefits from it and still being able to use it once more with different units.


As for me personally, the best way to solve this situation would be to functionally return warscroll overwatch rules to the state they were in. You could even leave -1 to hit in warscroll overwatch, as long as it can be stacked with Unleash Hell CA. Clarification on the not spending CP issue would be quite appreciated as well.

 

We will wait for your reply or for a FAQ with great anticipation, thank you for your time!

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[The Red King]

So what about the little rule blurb at the top of page 61 in the GHB. "If the effect of an ability [loose until the last] contradicts a core rule [Cannot use the same command ability twice, a unit can not receive more than 1 command ability per phase], then the effect takes precedence."

 

Seems pretty clear to me that if you issue "real" unleash hell first then activate loose until the last then the effect of loose until the last will take precedence over the concerns of using/recieving multiple command abilities. It is not however clear to me that would work if you did it in the other order but I cant imagine why it wouldnt other than poor writing. 

[Zeblasky]

16 minutes ago, The Red King said:

So what about the little rule blurb at the top of page 61 in the GHB. "If the effect of an ability [loose until the last] contradicts a core rule [Cannot use the same command ability twice, a unit can not receive more than 1 command ability per phase], then the effect takes precedence."

 

Seems pretty clear to me that if you issue "real" unleash hell first then activate loose until the last then the effect of loose until the last will take precedence over the concerns of using/recieving multiple command abilities. It is not however clear to me that would work if you did it in the other order but I cant imagine why it wouldnt other than poor writing. 

EDIT: You know, I was also thinking about that, just was not sure that this applies here. There is no, well, direct contradiction, like "every time a unit finishes move within 3" or "this unit can receive Unleash Hell multiple times through the use of this ability".
 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Beliman]

So, the main argument is that if you don't issue, or recieve or use a CP, that means that you are not using that CA (unless the description says exactly that you "use" it).

In other words, if I have an ability that says that I can issue a CA without spending any CP,  I'm not using that CA so I can repeat the same CA another time? 

[zilberfrid]

12 hours ago, SentinelGuy said:

I can kind of see why they might nerf SoW if they had concerns about mortal wound spam, but if that was the case they should also have smashed Lumineth Sentinels into the ground. I see no reason for nerfing handgunners really - were they that afraid of long guns?

Lumineth are most expensive per model, Sisters are less expensive and a versatile kit, handgunners are least expensive (and awful looking). Lumineth probably have the highest margin.

I like keywording things and using predefined definitions, but you actually have to put some effort in the text surrounding it.

Edited July 4, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Zeblasky]

Well, I guess there is nothing more than can be said about 6.1 rule, but what do people  think about The Red King point? Does wascroll simply overrides core rules here due to warscroll rules having priority? Does that mean that even if we're wrong about 6.1 rule, Sisters and Handgunners still have unlimited overwatches?

[zilberfrid]

45 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Well, I guess there is nothing more than can be said about 6.1 rule, but what do people  think about The Red King point? Does wascroll simply overrides core rules here due to warscroll rules having priority? Does that mean that even if we're wrong about 6.1 rule, Sisters and Handgunners still have unlimited overwatches?

I think the intent is for a single one, which isn't counted towards the maximum of 1 otherwise. It'll take a FAQ to be sure, but it fits how the previous warscroll worked and simply feels right.

It could be argued in a number of different ways, but relying on the extremes would be setting yourself up for disappointment in the FAQ.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Zeblasky said:

Well, I guess there is nothing more than can be said about 6.1 rule, but what do people  think about The Red King point? Does wascroll simply overrides core rules here due to warscroll rules having priority? Does that mean that even if we're wrong about 6.1 rule, Sisters and Handgunners still have unlimited overwatches?

my position, waiting for an FAQ, is still that there is no conflict between the warscroll rule and the core rule. You still can't use UH more than once per phase, you just get to use it without spending a CP and without having to issue it (so, no need for commanding model or leader, and you can use them to issue a different CA). Please note that the wording is the same as the Slayers effect from core battalion, which, being in the core rules cannot benefit from the hierarchical argument (warscrolls > core rules).

[Zappgrot]

On 7/3/2021 at 4:48 PM, Warfiend said:

This is incorrect.

The way it's described means you can use unleash hell multiple times in a single turn (since the rules state you can only issue the command once, and the warscroll states it doesn't count as being issued as well as costing no CP). But you can't use it twice on the same unit because a unit can only receive it once a turn.

If you have two units or sisters standing next to each other with another ranged unit behind them within 9". And an enemy unit ends their charge within range 3" of both sister units and within 9" of the third ranged unit it means you can use a free Unleash hell on both the sisters without spending any CP and choose to spend one CP to issue Unleash Hell on the third unit for a grand total of 3x Unleash hell in a single phase.

The angy orruks in this example would be absolutely destroyed if they would attempt this charge:

TLDR:
1 - Yes, Yes
2 - No

No no. The problem is that you can only USE an command ability once  (6.1) And then we thank gw for not clearing up what using means. !

[Zeblasky]

1 hour ago, Zappgrot said:

No no. The problem is that you can only USE an command ability once  (6.1) And then we thank gw for not clearing up what using means. !

Pretty much this. Some, including me, believe it's a full sequence, others believe it's getting any sort of effects from CA, so yea. And the warscroll overruling core rules part. FAQ within a month would be quite nice.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Zeblasky

[DrMorpheuz]

Did we get any answer on this one?

After reading I came to the conclusion that: After unleash hell is used (as command or from handgunner ability) you can not use it as in

"To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

But another handgunner unit can recieve it from the within 3" abillity.

So for example you can unleash hell with unit A using a command point and then handgunner unit B (if within 3")..... Have i gon crazy or should this work???

 

Btw Ironjawz player here so Im not that biased 😁 

[zilberfrid]

Afaik, it was the worst possible way it could have worked out.

[Warfiend]

oops

Edited July 3, 2021 by Warfiend

[Warfiend]

6 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Read rule 6.1 again... it states that you cannot USE the same command ability more than once in the same phase.

yes but RaW the units that have the ability don't use the command ability they receive it based on a trigger.

 

[Zeblasky]

6 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

And your warscroll ability allows you to skip over the issue and spend CP steps. But you’re still using it.

Are you using it though? You use the effect, but you're not "Using the command ability" as it formulated in the 6.1 rule. You skip 2 steps, that means you're not doing it properly and you are not using the 6.1 rule, you're not using a CA.

This line of thought is actually pretty interesting when it comes to a "do not spend a CP for this CA" rules btw. RAW it could possibly also mean unlimited uses of such CAs? Not sure.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Warfiend]

4 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

So every time you use the Lord Imperatant ability to issue a CA without a CP being spent you can use that CA again because you are skipping one step and hence not using it?

Technically yes, but you need to find another character to do so.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Warfiend

[Zeblasky]

8 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

The wording of Unleash Hell starts by saying “You can use this command after an enemy finishes a charge move” If you’re not using it, then it won’t trigger after a unit charges.

It seems clear that the spirit of the rule is that you only use it once per phase.

But at the same time, again, you're not using the CA sequence as 6.1, you're just "can receive the Unleash Hell command" conditionally.

As I've said before, the main ussue is what "use" at the end of 6.1 mean? If it's about use of CA effects, then you are right.  If "use" is about using the Command ability sequence, as it was worded in 6.1, then I am right. But it seems to me, when the rule itself is called "Using the command ability", and then explains, how exactly it should be used...

[Zeblasky]

5 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

For me this clearly reads as they can trigger multiple times, if multiple units finish within 3".

 

Oh god, lol, this... is also a possibility. There is no more "once per turn" restriction in place, even for a single unit, even when it's already in melee.

Huh... now this may explain why sisters went up 20 points...

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky