Free Unleash Hell from Warscrolls - how the Hell does it work?

[Zeblasky]

EDIT: Please sort this thread By Date so you would not get lost in the discussion!

So, Sisters of the Watch and Hadngunners overwatch got changed into this new rule for some reason. And this makes all of it very confusing.

The rule goes like this, kinda simular to the core batalion ability:
‘If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.’

Now, this raises some questions, besides the obvious "why Sisters went up 20 when they were nerfed at the same time?". Primarily though:

1) Can you use multiple free Unleash Hell(s) from different units in the same phase? Or can you use Unleash Hell Command Ability after using a free overwatch on a different unit?

2) Can you use both free and the usual Unleash Hell on the same unit in the same phase?

Because honestly, I have no idea, as rules are quite unclear on this. The most logical to think would be that this "free" Unleash Hell does not count as CA at all and does not conflict with the usual Unleash Hell. Otherwise, this would seem to be an incredibly stupid nerf to units that before were heavily balanced around the free counter charge overwatch (and without -1 to hit as well).

P.S. It is also quite ironic, that units without Warscroll overwatch benefit the most from Unleash Hell, while for Handgunners and SotW Unleash Hell CA has more of cumulative effect.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Cosmicsheep]

Seems fairly straight forward. The FAQ has changed the warscroll so that they can now issue the Unleash Hell command free. But the core rule 6.1 says that a unit cannot receive a command more than once per phase, so you just get to use it once. And you can’t use it again on another unit in the same phase, even if you spend a CA.

Not what you wanted to hear I imagine, but they are the rules as written

[Cosmicsheep]

2 minutes ago, Lich King said:

You cannot issue and receive a command more than once per phase - and you cannot use the same command multiple times per phase . 
  In the case of sisters - it is using the ability without the command being issued/ received . Quite clear you can use it multiple times 

If it is using the ability, as you say, then you cannot use it multiple times, as you also say. 

[Warfiend]

The rules say:

"To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

so to use a CA you must: 
1 > spend  a cp.
2 > issue a command.
3 > receive it.

and later

"you cannot use the same command ability more then once in the same phase"

the rules for sister say: 

"If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.’"

the rules are crystal clear and might require an faq

[Zappgrot]

You can not use a command ability more then once. 

An ability is something that according to  rule 1,6 had  an effect and most of them have restrictions.

 We know that the words on the warscroll describe an ability cause it has an effect. And it is on a warscroll.

It is a command ability cause it commands the sisters to do something  (unleash hell in this case) 

The restrictions that are removed are the issue and the command point beeing spend

No where is it stated that the restriction of using each command ability once is removed.

while the wording (as is ever the case whit gw) is ultra unclear. 

I find it hard to argue that this is not an ability   (since it's an text on a warscroll whit an effect)

I find it also hard to argue that it is not an command. (it states it literally in the text)

There for it's an command ability  and can only be used once.

But that's just my interpenetration. Others are possible and gw will have to rule on this. Cause as ever in they infinite wisdom...... eh laziness did not think the possible interpretations of the text trough.     

[Kadeton]

A classic case of GW trying to "simplify" and accidentally making way more work for themselves.

I would assume that the intent of this change was to standardise these units to use Unleash Hell like everyone else, but to avoid the CP cost. The only reason there's any confusion is because the Core Rules for command abilities are themselves badly worded and open to far too much interpretation.

There are so, so many ways they could have made this clearer if their intent was to allow it in addition to the normal use of Unleash Hell. Since they didn't, I would default to the safest (i.e. weakest) assumption, which is effectively that they can Unleash Hell, it doesn't cost them a CP, but that's your one and only use of Unleash Hell for the phase.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Warfiend said:

yes but RaW the units that have the ability don't use the command ability they receive it based on a trigger.

 

while I don't like the result, it seems to me that the core rules are pretty clear in distinguishing "issue" and "use":

"A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase and a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase. In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)"

So the "use" clause is clearly an additional condition.
 

[Cosmicsheep]

3 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

yes but RaW the units that have the ability don't use the command ability they receive it based on a trigger.

 

Doesn’t matter how they receive it... they are still using the command ability. The command ability is named in their FAQ’d warscroll. You have to refer to the command ability for the rules, ergo you are using that command ability

[Cosmicsheep]

5 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Oh god, I was so stupid. Of course it means the CA sequence! The whole freaking rule is called Using Command Abilities! And how do you use them? You spend a CP,  issue, receive, yada, yada. If you do not do that sequence, you DO NOT USE A CA.

And your warscroll ability allows you to skip over the issue and spend CP steps. But you’re still using it.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Warfiend said:

No since it's rule says Once per turn. 

What? No. Once per turn refers to issuing a command without a CP being spent. Again, does this count as "using" that CA using your interpretation?

[Lich King]

You cannot issue and receive a command more than once per phase - and you cannot use the same command multiple times per phase . 
  In the case of sisters - it is using the ability without the command being issued/ received . Quite clear you can use it multiple times 

[Christopher Rowe]

But doesn't the wording in the Sisters' ability specifically say that the unit has received the command? And Rule 6.0 says "a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase."

Did someone already make this argument and have it countered upthread? Reading this has thoroughly bamboozled me.

[SentinelGuy]

If they didn't intend for it to work exactly like a normal CA (with the exceptions that no point is spent and they don't need to be ordered), why did they bother changing the scroll in the first place?

[Zeblasky]

9 hours ago, DrMorpheuz said:

Did we get any answer on this one?

After reading I came to the conclusion that: After unleash hell is used (as command or from handgunner ability) you can not use it as in

"To use a command ability, you must spend 1 command point, pick 1 friendly model to issue the command, and pick 1 friendly unit to receive the command."

But another handgunner unit can recieve it from the within 3" abillity.

So for example you can unleash hell with unit A using a command point and then handgunner unit B (if within 3")..... Have i gon crazy or should this work???

 

Btw Ironjawz player here so Im not that biased 😁 

FAQ stated that it workes pretty much just like Unleash Hell CA without spending a command point. So yea, that killed Handgunners and it is a noticeable hit to Sisters of the watch.

[Cosmicsheep]

12 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

The way it's described means you can use unleash hell multiple times in a single turn (since the rules state you can only issue the command once,

Read rule 6.1 again... it states that you cannot USE the same command ability more than once in the same phase.

[Zeblasky]

23 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

The way it's described means you can use unleash hell multiple times in a single turn (since the rules state you can only issue the command once, and the warscroll states it doesn't count as being issued as well as costing no CP). But you can't use it twice on the same unit because a unit can only receive it once a turn.

 

Here's the problem, 6.1 in Core Book actually says "In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units). And, technically, you use the Unleash Hell ability on Sisters. The question here is what does "use the same command ability" mean here?...

Oh god, I was so stupid. Of course it means the CA sequence! The whole freaking rule is called Using Command Abilities! And how do you use them? You spend a CP,  issue, receive, yada, yada. If you do not do that sequence, you DO NOT USE A CA.

The question about "Can you use both free and the usual Unleash Hell on the same unit in the same phase?" is actually still open though. The wording of the warscroll ability means that you "receive the CA", but at the same time you do not use the CA, so is it a real CA or not, lol?
 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Warfiend]

Just now, Zeblasky said:

Here's the problem, 6.1 in Core Book actually says "In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units). And, technically, you use the Unleash Hell ability on Sisters. The question here is what does "use the same command ability" mean here?...

Oh god, I was so stupid. Of course it means the CA sequence! The whole freaking rule is called Using Command Abilities! And how do you use them? You spend a CP,  issue, receive, yada, yada. If you do not do that sequence, you DO NOT USE A CA.

The question about "Can you use both free and the usual Unleash Hell on the same unit in the same phase?" is actually still open though. The wording of the rule means that you "receive the CA", but at the same time you do not use the CA, so is it a real CA or not, lol?
 

 

Use it not a bolded keyword in the rulebook. another rule says that to use a command ability you must spend a command point, since you're not spending you're not using.

[Marcvs]

3 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Are you using it though? You use the effect, but you're not "Using the command ability" as it formulated in the 6.1 rule. You skip 2 steps, that means you're not doing it properly and you are not using the 6.1 rule, you're not using a CA.

This line of thought is actually pretty interesting when it comes to a "do not spend a CP for this CA" rules btw. RAW it could possibly also mean unlimited uses of such CAs? Not sure.

So every time you use the Lord Imperatant ability to issue a CA without a CP being spent you can use that CA again because you are skipping one step and hence not using it?

[Warfiend]

1 minute ago, Marcvs said:

What? No. Once per turn refers to issuing a command without a CP being spent. Again, does this count as "using" that CA using your interpretation?

yeah I misread your post, I changed my answer

[Cosmicsheep]

8 minutes ago, Zeblasky said:

Are you using it though?

The wording of Unleash Hell starts by saying “You can use this command after an enemy finishes a charge move” If you’re not using it, then it won’t trigger after a unit charges.

It seems clear that the spirit of the rule is that you only use it once per phase.

[Zeblasky]

Just now, Marcvs said:

So every time you use the Lord Imperatant ability to issue a CA without a CP being spent you can use that CA again because you are skipping one step and hence not using it?

Well, it's only one step, and it's a rule that more like modifies a CA sequence instead of ignoring a part of it, but... may be?

But then it could mean that if you're not using a CA properly, so you can't use it at all?

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Zeblasky said:

Well, it's only one step, and it's a rule that more like modifies a CA sequence instead of ignoring a part of it, but... may be?

But then it could mean that if you're not using a CA properly, so you can't use it at all?

 

13 minutes ago, Warfiend said:

Technically yes, but you need to find another character to do so.

Yeah, to me this shows that this interpretation leads to absurd results, making the rule of "max 1 use per phase" so full of exceptions (everytime you use a CA without spending a CP you can use it again), which are not stated in the rule, that it becomes almost meaningless.

Still, I think this deserves an official clarification and hope that we'll get one soon enough since it also covers the core battalions.

[Warfiend]

1 minute ago, Marcvs said:

 

Yeah, to me this shows that this interpretation leads to absurd results, making the rule of "max 1 use per phase" so full of exceptions (everytime you use a CA without spending a CP you can use it again), which are not stated in the rule, that it becomes almost meaningless.

Still, I think this deserves an official clarification and hope that we'll get one soon enough since it also covers the core battalions.

I agree with you on this. This is an oversight considering they choose to carefully bold the words that define the scope of the new rules and yet left this hole which can and will be abused.

[schwabbele]

For me this clearly reads as they can trigger multiple times, if multiple units finish within 3".

 

[zilberfrid]

"We have a new ability that mimics this unit's warscroll ability, let's rewrite their warscroll so it's open to four different interpretations."

[Zeblasky]

9 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

So if for eg 2 units charge, sister can do 2 times and you could still issue the command on another unit

Or on Sisters themselfs, as they are not really using this CA, are they, lol? Unless you count the 6.1 rule about receiving CA and "unit can receive the Unleash Hell" as talking about receiving a command ability. But then it means that Sisters used the Unleash Hell command ability and... damn, we've got quite a logical ouroboros in here.