Cities of Sigmar in AoS 3

[zilberfrid]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:58 AM, NauticalSoup said:

I mean if you want to get that technical with the wording, the handgunner ability merely lets you 'receive' the command (a sub-component of using a command ability) - it doesn't actually let you 'use' it, which is the term that actually pulls the trigger and sets off the whole sequence of programmatic logic allowing a command ability to do something in the game. So for the ability to do anything you still need to reference all the command ability core rules that are omitted, which necessarily should include the strict limitation that you can't 'use' Unleash Hell outside of the charge phase.

If it was meant to bypass phasing it would indicate as much since CAs were deliberately designed to be phase locked.

It's also worth noting that this language is identical to the language on battalion bonuses that say you can receive it without the command being issued without a command point being spent. In fact the literal only thing that separates them is that the handgunner warscroll ability has one additional restriction about when it can be applied, and reading that restriction as suddenly letting you bypass all the other CA mechanics is the sort of thing that instantly breaks a huge swath of the game. Like imagine reading Slayers and saying "Well I've satisfied the condition 'once per battle' so I'm going to use unleash hell out of phase" because it doesn't restate all the core rules telling me I can't.

Come on now.

Edit: another example of how we KNOW handgunners have to use unleash hell as per the core rules: the identically worded battalion bonuses and similar that net you a freebie don't let you use the command ability more times than the game natively allows in a phase - once. Because even though none of those abilities tell you you're 'using' a command ability, that's exactly what you have to do to benefit from them, and as a result all the restrictions on when you can use any such ability still apply because they weren't mentioned and therefore weren't contradicted. If you really think what you're describing is allowed I encourage you to post it in the rules section and you'll get more explanations probably all saying the same thing.

That different trigger is exactly the thing. Normally, it's more restrictive, but as written, it would allow that unit to receive the command out of turn.

Now I fully expect GW to FAQ handgunners over by clarifying that it doesn't work like that, but that's not the current state of the warscroll.

[NauticalSoup]

Yeah the simplified version is actually the reason they can't unleash hell multiple times is actually the exact same reason they can't use it out of phase. All this inexplicit meaning tied up in terms like 'use' and 'receive'. It's actually part of a larger fuzziness problem with how the new CAs are designed in general.

It should be conveyed better and will keep needing FAQs until they write what they mean instead of playing annoying games with keywords where we have to try and parse what the intent is from the legalese.

Also it wouldn't be broken at all and handgunners should have kept their original warscroll ability. In a friendly game I'd straight up let them use what was printed in the battletome instead of the stupid new version.

@zilberfrid So it doesn't actually have any trigger. That's the problem. The rule says 'If an enemy unit finishes a charge move within 3" of this unit, this unit can receive the Unleash Hell command without the command being issued and without a command point being spent.' so that means you have permission to RECEIVE unleash hell when an enemy unit finishes a charge within 3". The thing is, permission to receive it isn't enough because that's just one of several steps in the CA process tree. Technically you are correct that you have permission to receive it at all phases, that's absolutely true- it just doesn't matter, because you still have to USE unleash hell for it to do anything, and USE of unleash hell is still phase restricted.

The reason I brought up slayers before is that it uses nearly identical language to the handgunner ability, because it also has no trigger. The only way to benefit from either ability is to follow the process tree in the book under 6.1 Using Command Abilities. If receiving was sufficient, you would be able to use Slayers to bypass phase restrictions because you wouldn't need to 'use' it as per 6.1, but we know you can't do this and that GW assumes anytime you are benefitting from one of these freebie abilities you still have to use the CA. We also know you can't use Unleash Hell repeatedly through handgunner/slayers type abilities, again because of restrictions that are a part of 6.1.

Another bit that supports this is the line 'In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units).' which according to GW applies to the handgunner. So everything suggests they do still have to 'use Unleash Hell' which is instantly prohibited by phase, so you never even hit the handgunner eligibility check unless you're in the correct phase.

Clear as mud lol

Edited February 7, 2022 by NauticalSoup
added stuff fixed typos

[NauticalSoup]

I drew a crappy chart to illustrate it better because I'm typing a lot of words but I'm not sure it's apparent why I'm saying what I'm saying.

So if an enemy finishes within 3" our trigger sets off two effects. We're eligible to receive without issuing and we don't have to pay a CP. It never at any point lets us bypass the top level restrictions regarding using command abilities. It doesn't matter if we're eligible to receive a CA we aren't allowed to use in the first place, since receive is just one of several checks in determining the valid use of a CA. It's a really really important distinction because if you're not using unleash hell tons of other stuff like all the FAQs instantly breaks down, because all the other bits (issuing, receiving, spending CP, resolving the text) are subcomponents of using a CA. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by NauticalSoup
Edit: bolded the important words here because I want it to be clear I'm talking about mechanics keywords with defined meanings

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I just started working on a full artillery detachment of four Helstorm Rocket Batteries and a Cogsmith, and since I did the math, I just thought I'd share it.

tl;dr: They are bad.

First off, why even get a bunch of Helstorms? For me, it's because they represent a fairly cheap way to de-tune a list and achieve a change of play style. Four Helstorms plus a Cogsmith are 610 points. They are self-contained and you can just slot them into a list without having to worry about further synergies.

First, let's look at the positives. The Helstorm Rocket Battery has a 36" ranged attack. It gets +1 to hit on its warscroll if all its shots are aimed at the same unit (so basically always). The Cogsmith gives it reroll 1s to hit by just being next to it. So far so good.

The bad part about them is just that they don't deal enough damage for their points. Here's a damage comparison between them and 6 Vanguard Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480 points):

Save	Helstorm	Longstrikes
2+	4.67	9
3+	6.22	10.67
4+	7.78	12.33
5+	9.33	14
6+	9.33	14
-	9.33	14

This is without any buffs except for free ones. The Longstrikes could easily get +1 to hit from All-Out Attack on top of this. I think it's safe to say that the Helstorm is outclassed in the artillery role by what Stormcast have to offer.

The Helstorm is one of those units that was never really super good, but has been disproportionatly hurt by the transition to 3rd edition. It used to be able to easily stack more bonuses to hit and there was also the option to make it shoot twice first turn in the Greywater Fastness battalion. Having lost those options, it just doesn't do the necessary damage to make it worth using in serious games. The fact that it is an artillery unit is also a big downside. It means that the Helstorm can't benefit from command abilities efficiently, bringing enough of them to be impactful means driving your drops way up and you need to deal with minimum ranges and low movement on top of that.

I hope that this unit gets a complete overhaul in the next edition. If I were in charge, I would probably remove the +1 to hit from and reroll from the warscroll. Instead, I would give it the ability to ignore line of sight or cover (one of the two), since it is supposed to be firing rockets in an arc after all. After that, just adjust the damage to be appropriate. 9 shot at 5+/3+/-2/1 produces reasonable results, with the added benefit of representing that the model fires 9 inaccurate rockets pretty well.

I would also give the Cogsmith the ability to issue a command to all artillery units within a certain range, so that it has a niche as a hero that can efficiently buff artillery units. He might need to be over 70 points that way, but I think it would be worthwhile to have a hero that can give +1 to hit to a bunch of Hellstorms or Unleash Hell to a bunch of Helblasters (on the condition that they also get their warscrolls rewritten to be playable, that is).

[readercolin]

So just for giggles, I decided to replicate your table, but also add in the celestar ballista and the volley gun:

Save	Raptors	Ballista	Single	Hellstorm	Volley gun
2+	9	4.67		5.19	4.67		4.67
3+	10.67	6.22		6.48	6.22		7
4+	12.33	7.78		7.78	7.78		9.33
5+	14	9.33		7.78	9.33		11.67
6+	14	9.33		7.78	9.33		14
-	14	9.33		7.78	9.33		14

So we have a set of 6 vanguard raptors with no buffs, 4 celestar ballista's with rapid fire, 4 celestar ballista's with single shot, 4 hellstorms shooting a single target with a cogsmith standing next to them, and the volley gun with 3 decks of shots with an engineer standing next to them (for re-roll dice to number of hits).

Now, both the ballista's and the volley guns can benefit from either a Lord-Ordinator, a Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion, or a celestial hurricanum, but the hellstorm... can't (unless it wants to split its shots... but why?).  Next up, points.  A single squad of raptors is 480 points, 4 ballista's is 560 points, 4 hellblasters + cogsmith is 570 points, and 4 hellstorms + cogsmith is 610 points.

What can we tell from this?  The easy answer is that GW needs to overhaul artillery completely.  A single unit of vanguard raptors/judicators/whatever can benefit from unleash hell, can rally, counts for more bodies on objectives, and can get buffed from all out attack/all out defense with a single CP.  Meanwhile, artillery is 4 different units, which means you need a buff piece like the Lord-Ordinator to stand around (aka, yet more points) to buff their to hit, AND they are doing less damage and can't reliably unleash hell.  Then, to add on top of that, all of the artillery is more expensive than a shooting unit that does the job better?  It is really hard to justify running them in that case.

Now, for reference, in 2nd edition when you could stack +hit bonuses, between the Lord-Ordinator and a Celestial Hurricanum, you could get the following profile for the hellstorm and volley gun:

Save	Hellstorm	Volley gun
2+	7.78		7.78
3+	10.37		11.67
4+	12.96		15.56
5+	15.56		19.44
6+	15.56		23.33
-	15.56		23.33

On top of this, they still weren't running last edition either, but those numbers are a lot more impressive than the new numbers.  Most of it boils down to the fact that to get those numbers, you needed ~400 points of buff pieces to be sitting next to them.  But as it is, artillery really needs to get re-evaluated by GW.  Especially as if you start running an artillery heavy army like this, you won't fit into a battle regiment.

[NauticalSoup]

It's sad seeing how badly screwed over even the celestar was in 3.0. I have four of the darn things and they're just so pathetic on the table 😞

GW really does need to re-evaluate what the purpose of these units is. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

16 hours ago, readercolin said:

So just for giggles, I decided to replicate your table, but also add in the celestar ballista and the volley gun

Yeah, I did these calculations as well to see how the Helstorm stacks up against other artillery. The thing is, as bad as it is, it's actually not even the worst artillery unit out there. Basically everything with a cannon attack profile (1 attack, 4+/2+/-2/d6) is actually worse. I was really surprised that even the Stormcast ballista is arguably worse, since it is slightly more expensive and has a more expensive buff hero.

I also did the math on the Volley Gun to find out if it's worth using over the Rocket Battery. But it is even more outclassed: The Rocket Battery has a niche among Cities (non-coallition) units, which is 36" range. That's at least something, and if you invest in four of them they will take a small unit or buff hero off the board per shooting phase pretty reliably. The Volley Gun, by contrast, basically just gets ~10 shots of 3+/3+/-1/1 at 18" per model on average. You know what else gets 10 of those shots? 10 Freeguild Handgunners. And they are way easier to buff and come with a bunch of additional upside. And they don't blow themselves up 10% of the time. And they are still not really worth taking over Irondrakes!

17 hours ago, readercolin said:

What can we tell from this?  The easy answer is that GW needs to overhaul artillery completely. 

17 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

GW really does need to re-evaluate what the purpose of these units is. 

100% agree. I think there is currently no artillery unit in the game that is actually good good. I think I will make a post about artillery on the main discussion board in a bit, might be interesting to hear what other people have to say.

[EntMan]

According to the latest base size document I can find (Jan 2021 on WarCom) Warden Kings go on 25mm bases. However, the one in my start collecting greywater fastness comes with a larger base (which seems more fitting for a king).

I'm interested in whether Cities playing/collecting people tend to go with the official 25mm or tend to go bigger?

[Doko]

He is supposed to be in 33 base,its as he come in start collcting and how was in the bases pdf.

I dont know why now it says 25

[Ravenborn]

Question for experts here: what city should I use for my all Dark Elf army? I have the Morathi book, and was intending on using one of the lists from that, but I don’t know if that’s still valid.

Here’s what I’d like to field, based on what I’ve painted:

Black Dragon with dreadlord

Fleetmaster

Assassin

Sorceress

Celestial Hurricanum 

 

20 corsairs

20 Darkshards 

20 Black guard

10 Drakespawn knights

Chariot (haven’t decided which)

2 celesta ballistae 

Kharybdis 

 

Also have lotsa DoK.

This has been a passion project for me for a few years; all the models will be Delves, including the ballistae and Hurricanum. I’ve only got one game of AoS3 in, so I really don’t know what might work. It’s not for tournaments, just fun. 
 

Any advice would be appreciated, but I’m especially looking for suggestions on which city to start with. Thanks!

Edited February 26, 2022 by Ravenborn

[Thugmullet]

12 hours ago, Ravenborn said:

Question for experts here: what city should I use for my all Dark Elf army? I have the Morathi book, and was intending on using one of the lists from that, but I don’t know if that’s still valid.

Here’s what I’d like to field, based on what I’ve painted:

Black Dragon with dreadlord

Fleetmaster

Assassin

Sorceress

Celestial Hurricanum 

 

20 corsairs

20 Darkshards 

20 Black guard

10 Drakespawn knights

Chariot (haven’t decided which)

2 celesta ballistae 

Kharybdis 

 

Also have lotsa DoK.

This has been a passion project for me for a few years; all the models will be Delves, including the ballistae and Hurricanum. I’ve only got one game of AoS3 in, so I really don’t know what might work. It’s not for tournaments, just fun. 
 

Any advice would be appreciated, but I’m especially looking for suggestions on which city to start with. Thanks!

Cant help with city choice sorry.

Just wanted to comment that they are beautiful minis.

Look Fantastic. Love contrast in colours and great tones.

They look great.

[NauticalSoup]

@RavenbornThe minis are great.

City choice is tough because racially locked armies are very sub optimal in cities since there are few synergies, and those that do exist aren't really worth sacrificing access to a better mix of units. Ultimately I think it'll just be a matter of taste in your case but I'll list possible strong factions for your units - fair warning my assessments of a lot of these units will look pretty harsh:

Black Dragon with dreadlord - not a strong choice but has slightly more support in anvilgard from the drakeblood curses. Makes your drakespawn knights marginally less horrible.

Fleetmaster - very cheap, not very useful otherwise

Assassin - the only notable use of assassins I've seen was in a a phoenicium list that combined them with phoenix guard. Probably won't make a huge difference what city, will be similarly effective as long as there's stuff for him to pop out of.

Sorceress - arguably best caster in the book, great in every city and you have the dark elves to eat for +2. Anvilgard is probably worth calling out for Vitriolic Spray which combos super well with the typically anemic attacks of dark elf units to absolutely HOSE whatever is targeted

Celestial Hurricanum - incredibly potent support unit, useful in basically every city

20 corsairs - dirt cheap chaff with a missile attack. Gets a lot of value from stuff like Vitriolic Spray which turns their pathetic offensive capabilities into a genuine threat. Otherwise a cheap screen (unfortunately not battleline by default)

20 Darkshards - similar to the above but you pay more points for a better missile weapon. Combos even better with Vitriolic Spray and buffs like the Hurricanum. 

20 Black guard - they're okay, marginally better than they were. There are a lot of superior combat units in the book and they bring medicore durability. I'd proxy PGs or maybe even executioners before I ever put a black guard in a list. Needs a darkling coven hero to get the best combat value which sucks because it has to be a sorceress

10 Drakespawn knights - still too expensive and anemic, if not as bad as they were. Probably a package deal with the dreadlord but I wouldn't generally say either are useful units.

Chariot (haven’t decided which) - Scourgerunner Chariots got badly nerfed but are still a superior MSU option. Fast, good shooting attacks and reasonably durable. The drakespawn chariot is probably just worse, and one of the only units I've literally never seen fielded. 

2 celesta ballistae - these are kind of bad even in Stormcasts (I own four loL). They struggle to contribute even if you go all in on them with support. The loss of deep strike makes them a non-starter in Cities because you're going to be stuck using the inferior profile a lot more and won't get as much value from their relative tankiness.

Kharybdis - very overpriced monster, gets a drakeblood curse in Anvilgard (better than nothing!)

DoK - Har Kuron is the only city that can bring em so if you want em that's your only choice

 

Overall you're probably looking at Anvilgard since dark elf units mostly have a good number of individually bad attacks (also ideal for hurricanum), and vitriolic spray is the shenanigansy way to flip those from a nuisance into a credible threat. The weakness here is you only have 1 (maybe 2 with the hurricanum) wizard and if it dies most of your DE units become super ineffective. 

Edit: One option for the less-than-WYSIWYG route would be use the dragon as a frost phoenix anointed and the black guards as PGs. Reasonably close approximations and would seriously up the punch and staying power of your list.

Edited February 28, 2022 by NauticalSoup

[Ravenborn]

42 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

@RavenbornThe minis are great.

City choice is tough because racially locked armies are very sub optimal in cities since there are few synergies, and those that do exist aren't really worth sacrificing access to a better mix of units. Ultimately I think it'll just be a matter of taste in your case but I'll list possible strong factions for your units - fair warning my assessments of a lot of these units will look pretty harsh:

Black Dragon with dreadlord - not a strong choice but has slightly more support in anvilgard from the drakeblood curses. Makes your drakespawn knights marginally less…

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

This is amazingly helpful. I’m completely aware I’m hamstringing myself by sticking to dark elves, but I’ve wanted an delf army for over 30 years now

Your notes will help me finish a 1,000 test list with tempered expectations. I’ll definitely consider the Phoenix Guard rules for the BG, given that these are for friendly games anyways. 
 

Is a hydra preferable to the Kharybdis? Its ranged attack seems like a better choice. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Ravenborn

[NauticalSoup]

They're different in weird ways. The Kharibdyss brackets faster which is annoying and the hydra's heal is unconditional, and their attacks are similar except one of the Hydra's is a missile attack (although pretty short range). Overall both are fragile and have punishing brackets, but overall the Hydra seems to edge out slightly imo because the heal is more consistent, it has a missile attack and it brackets a little slower. I can't say I've ever used either that's just a surface reading of the units, but if I had to pick I would probably take the Hydra.

I think you'll have an easier time making a 1k than 2k since you'll have less of a need to fit in the less effective units.

[Ravenborn]

Thanks again!
 

What do you mean by “brackets”? I’m not familiar with that term in gaming. 

[NauticalSoup]

Sorry I mean how the characteristics of the units degrade as they take damage. If you look at the entries, the kharibdyss starts losing stats faster and reaches the worst 'bracket' much faster than the hydra which has to take more damage before it loses quite so many stats.

[Ravenborn]

Great point! I didn’t think to compare those. Thanks!

[NauticalSoup]

15 hours ago, Ravenborn said:

Great point! I didn’t think to compare those. Thanks!

Yep it makes comparing them really weird because it's hard to rate for differences like that.

[Trickflo]

I've had some pretty decent success with a har kuron using this list

 - Army Faction: Cities of Sigmar

  - Army Type: Har Kuron

  - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

  - Triumph: Inspired

LEADERS

Morathi-Khaine (660)

  - Spells: The Withering, Vitriolic Spray

The Shadow Queen (660)

Hag Queen (105)

  - Prayers: Curse

Dreadlord on Black Dragon (275)*

Sorceress (95)*

  - Spells: Sap Strength, Vitriolic Spray

Black Ark Fleetmaster (70)*

  - General

  - Command Traits: Murderous Zeal

  - Artefacts of Power: Lifetaker

BATTLELINE

10 x Darkshards (115)

10 x Dreadspears (90)

1 x Scourgerunner Chariots (80)

10 x Black Ark Corsairs (85)

20 x Darkshards (230)*

BEHEMOTH

1 x Kharibdyss (165)

CORE BATTALIONS

 - *Warlord

TOTAL POINTS: 1970/2000

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

I don't play in tournaments or anything and I basically always give up 1st turn pick but morathi can be hard for a lot of people to deal with easily and if you can get curse or vitriolic spray off the dark shards or the corsairs(with fleet master ca) can be pretty devastating. 

 

[Ravenborn]

@NauticalSoup Your previous advice was fantastic, so I have a new question for you;

You said the ballistae are “meh”. What do you think about the other CoS artillery, such as the helblaster or helstorm? Would choosing either of them be better than the ballistae?
 

I think my main goal for them would be to target heroes and monsters. 
 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Ravenborn

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 hours ago, Ravenborn said:

@NauticalSoup Your previous advice was fantastic, so I have a new question for you;

You said the ballistae are “meh”. What do you think about the other CoS artillery, such as the helblaster or helstorm? Would choosing either of them be better than the ballistae?
 

I think my main goal for them would be to target heroes and monsters. 

I have been looking at the CoS artillery units pretty closely recently, so I think I can comment.

I'll keep it short:

To get the Helstorm Rocket Battery to a point where it can potentially snipe heroes and monsters, you need a full 4 of them plus the Cogsmith. And even then they are overpriced to the point that a unit of 6 Stormcast Longstrikes is cheaper and better, even without any synergy from CoS buffs. Weirdly, the Helstorm is arguably still better than the Celestar Ballista, despite how bad it is.

The Helblaster Volley Gun is worse point for point than a unit of Handgunners but with a chance to blow itself up and more random damage. You probably want to avoid it unless you absolutely love the model.

Good options for long range shooting in Cities are Freeguild Crossbows and Sisters of the Watch. As well as all the good Stormcast shooting units like Longstrikes or Judicators. Also, the Lumineth Starshard Ballista if you are in Settler's Gain.

[Ravenborn]

Thanks for the feedback. I knew it was a long shot, looks like they’ll stay on the shelf.

[NauticalSoup]

Artillery is in a bad state right now. In general they represent expensive, less effective missile units that lack big unit synergistic buffs from command abilities. Until such time as GW either makes them a much cheaper alternative or gives them something they can do that missile infantry can't they don't really serve a purpose.

Which is frustrating because I like them and own many.

[Lord Krungharr]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:09 PM, NauticalSoup said:

Artillery is in a bad state right now. In general they represent expensive, less effective missile units that lack big unit synergistic buffs from command abilities. Until such time as GW either makes them a much cheaper alternative or gives them something they can do that missile infantry can't they don't really serve a purpose.

Which is frustrating because I like them and own many.

I feel like just making the Cogsmith do more; the artillery usually gets the +1 to hit in range of one, but he should be able to tinker with them and have options to do more damage per hit or more rend or extra shots.  Something like that on maybe a 2+....and on a 1 it backfires and does a MW to him or something?  Seems fair.  Just healing an Ironweld Arsenal unit doesn't seem very useful to me, especially to Gyrocopters or a Steam Tank which should be on the move, not waiting for the Cogsmith to trot next to them.

[Unit1126PLL]

So, uh, I know people are talking about how bad artillery was and everything. I made an Ironweld Arsenal list anyways, and I want some thoughts on it and the strategy for it. I play pretty casually but sometimes tournament practice strikes and I either don't get a game or must play competitively, so the list is somewhat dual-hatted. Anyways, here's the list, and thoughts after:

City is Greywater Fastness
LEADERS:
- Steam Tank with Commander (General) with the Drillmaster command traid
- Celestial Hurricanum with the Battlemage and the Steam Piston Plate Mail artefact (so I can get it to a 3+ save and convert it from a Steam Tank model)
- Lord Ordinator
- Cogsmith (Grand Battery)

BATTLELINE:
- One Steam Tank
- The Other Steam Tank
- Freeguild Guard with Shields and Swords, reinforced once (20 models)

ARTILLERY:
Cannon
Cannon
Cannon
Helstorm Volley Gun (Grand Battery)
Helstorm Volley Gun (Grand Battery)

The plan for the list is to have one fire support element (ordinator plus 3 cannons), one heavy maneuver element (3 stanks and the CH) and one slow but angry maneuver element (2 HVGs and a cogsmith supporting the 20 infantry).

The 2 HVGs will move up with the infantry, 3" at a time for each unit, cogsmith in the center. CH and steamtanks stay near by if feasible. The cannons and Ordinator are behind them all, possibly on an objective.

I know the list will get wrecked by drop armies (i.e. teleporters and the like) but in general the idea is to spit fire downrange and absorb charges on the infantry, using the Battalion and a command point to double-Unleash Hell with the Helstorm cannons. They *should* still be hitting on a 3+, even with Unleash, and rerolling 1s, if I've managed to keep the maneuver elements together. The Cogsmith also lets them roll 3d6 for their shots EACH much more fearlessly, thanks to the reroll of one of the dice.

In conclusion, everything in the list should hit on a 3+ in shooting, and furthermore everything wholly within 12" of the Steam Tank Commander's big base will be rerolling 1s as well. The cannons are 6 shots total of 3+/2+/-2/d6 from 35" away, which hopefully is enough gun to make up for the inefficiency of the artillery, and the Helstorm volley guns are great charge deterrents - or will certainly do a number if the enemy comes in anyways. The steam tanks are a hard nut to crack, and while there are big drawbacks for not being Monsters, there are also big benefits (since many enemy abilities key off of Monster).

Thoughts?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Unit1126PLL