Phasteon Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Mutton said: I don't know what tabletop game you're playing, but it definitely isn't Warhammer. Or maybe you haven't played many actual games against LRL. I also don't know where this "kruleboyz always come out on top" thing is coming from. They get wiped out against plenty of other armies. Its Age of Sigmar, no need to be a ****** about it. I actually played only twice against LRL so far, funnily enough with Kruleboyz once which went quite successful. LRL are strong but I value the tricks Kruleboyz can pull off over pointy ears MW shooting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejnar Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 What do go guys think of this list for a tournament in a couple of weeks. Want lots of bodies, low drop and slitta screens and objectives grabbers. Allegiance: Kruleboyz- Warclan: Big Yellers- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredLeadersSnatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*- General- Command Trait: EgomaniakSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Artefact: Mork's Eye Pebble- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty HexSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Lore of the Swamp: Choking MistMurknob with Belcha-banna (95)Battleline20 x Gutrippaz (360)*- Reinforced x 120 x Gutrippaz (360)*- Reinforced x 19 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)*- Reinforced x 2Units10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*ArtilleryBeast-skewer Killbow (130)*Core Battalions*Battle RegimentTotal: 1990 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 155Drops: 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 3 hours ago, Dejnar said: What do go guys think of this list for a tournament in a couple of weeks. Want lots of bodies, low drop and slitta screens and objectives grabbers. Allegiance: Kruleboyz- Warclan: Big Yellers- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredLeadersSnatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*- General- Command Trait: EgomaniakSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Artefact: Mork's Eye Pebble- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty HexSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Lore of the Swamp: Choking MistMurknob with Belcha-banna (95)Battleline20 x Gutrippaz (360)*- Reinforced x 120 x Gutrippaz (360)*- Reinforced x 19 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)*- Reinforced x 2Units10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*ArtilleryBeast-skewer Killbow (130)*Core Battalions*Battle RegimentTotal: 1990 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 155Drops: 2 Don’t forget your mount trait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombiepiratexxx Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 3 hours ago, Dejnar said: What do go guys think of this list for a tournament in a couple of weeks. Want lots of bodies, low drop and slitta screens and objectives grabbers. Allegiance: Kruleboyz- Warclan: Big Yellers- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: InspiredLeadersSnatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*- General- Command Trait: EgomaniakSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Artefact: Mork's Eye Pebble- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty HexSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Lore of the Swamp: Choking MistMurknob with Belcha-banna (95)Battleline20 x Gutrippaz (360)*- Reinforced x 120 x Gutrippaz (360)*- Reinforced x 19 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)*- Reinforced x 2Units10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*ArtilleryBeast-skewer Killbow (130)*Core Battalions*Battle RegimentTotal: 1990 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 155Drops: 2 The only glaring thing to me is that those 2 big block of Gutrippas and the Boltboyz are horrifically exposed to Bravery losses without a Killaboss around. With such poor bravery you'll be spending a CP on either the Boltboyz or the Gutrippas and it doesn't take a ton of wounds to either unit to drop enough of them for Bravery to make it a risk of losing large parts of either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said: The only glaring thing to me is that those 2 big block of Gutrippas and the Boltboyz are horrifically exposed to Bravery losses without a Killaboss around. With such poor bravery you'll be spending a CP on either the Boltboyz or the Gutrippas and it doesn't take a ton of wounds to either unit to drop enough of them for Bravery to make it a risk of losing large parts of either. The strat is to have a single big turn with the waaagh, I’ve tried it and have seen it’s success but I’ve also have had the displeasure of people knowing the gimmick and strategically avoid it. And of course as you said you spend a cp on one unit and take the losses on another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejnar Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 11 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said: The only glaring thing to me is that those 2 big block of Gutrippas and the Boltboyz are horrifically exposed to Bravery losses without a Killaboss around. With such poor bravery you'll be spending a CP on either the Boltboyz or the Gutrippas and it doesn't take a ton of wounds to either unit to drop enough of them for Bravery to make it a risk of losing large parts of either. I agree. I switched around a bit and landed in this instead! Allegiance: Kruleboyz- Warclan: Big Yellers- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line- Triumphs: IndomitableLeadersSnatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)*- General- Command Trait: Egomaniak- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)- Mount Trait: Smelly 'Un- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty HexKillaboss with Stab-grot (110)*- Artefact: Mork's Eye PebbleSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty HexSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)*- Lore of the Swamp: Choking MistMurknob with Belcha-banna (95)*Battleline20 x Gutrippaz (360)**- Reinforced x 120 x Gutrippaz (360)**- Reinforced x 19 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)**- Reinforced x 2Units10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)*Core Battalions*Warlord**Hunters of the HeartlandsAdditional EnhancementsArtefactTotal: 1970 / 2000Reinforced Units: 4 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 156Drops: 10 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) That’s one of those lists, where you really wish for an extra 20 points and get the Boss on Gnashtooth. Personally I‘m not sold on the double shaman in a 1 boltboys, no beastskewer list but that’s maybe just me. Edited November 1, 2021 by Rachmani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombiepiratexxx Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 The extra Shaman is handy as one can babysit the Boltboyz and the other can do escort duty on the Gutrippas, or, depending on deployment, turn 1 do the boltboyz with their extra range and then you can escort both units of Gutrippas for a pretty dirty Waaagh turn so I can see why he's in there. I think if Gutrippas dropped 20 or 30 points it would open up the list building quite dramatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W1tchhunter Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Is there any melee lists kicking around that use the sloggoth. Preferably with no allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 4 hours ago, Rachmani said: That’s one of those lists, where you really wish for an extra 20 points and get the Boss on Gnashtooth. Personally I‘m not sold on the double shaman in a 1 boltboys, no beastskewer list but that’s maybe just me. The shaman buff amazing on gutrippaz, and still decent on sludgerakers. Gutrippaz do around 1 mortal per 3 models without buffs (and their non-mortal damage is abysmal ~ 1 wound per 3 models before saves), shaman doubles that to 2 mortals per 3 models, and with a sludgeraker too its ~1 mortal per model. Unbuffed gutrippaz are nothing but meat, and are more expensive per wound than hobgrots. It might not be the optimal playstyle but if you want gutrippaz do to anything you kind of need that shaman buff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predien Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 3 hours ago, W1tchhunter said: Is there any melee lists kicking around that use the sloggoth. Preferably with no allies. If you're running 2-3 Mirebrutes I could see the Sloggoth coming in handy but otherwise I don't see any pure KBz lists with him in it. Outside of the Mirebrute, most of the damage from this army is MW output and ranged, which the sloggoth does nothing to buff. It's a great model and it has it's play in Big Waaghs or if you wanted to ally in a Gargant or some Troggoths from Gitz but in pure KBz I think you'd want to spend your points elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivyre Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 15 minutes ago, Predien said: If you're running 2-3 Mirebrutes I could see the Sloggoth coming in handy but otherwise I don't see any pure KBz lists with him in it. Outside of the Mirebrute, most of the damage from this army is MW output and ranged, which the sloggoth does nothing to buff. It's a great model and it has it's play in Big Waaghs or if you wanted to ally in a Gargant or some Troggoths from Gitz but in pure KBz I think you'd want to spend your points elsewhere. I agree, but even than it’s probably better to simply exclude the sloggoth and spend those points on fellwater troggoths as an ally for 155 or rockgut troggoths for 145. Dobby seems to be a better support for big waagh or gitz than dobby is in KB. Armies that don’t go fishing want the hit modifier bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 36 minutes ago, Ganigumo said: The shaman buff amazing on gutrippaz, and still decent on sludgerakers. Gutrippaz do around 1 mortal per 3 models without buffs (and their non-mortal damage is abysmal ~ 1 wound per 3 models before saves), shaman doubles that to 2 mortals per 3 models, and with a sludgeraker too its ~1 mortal per model. Unbuffed gutrippaz are nothing but meat, and are more expensive per wound than hobgrots. It might not be the optimal playstyle but if you want gutrippaz do to anything you kind of need that shaman buff. I agree, but there are rather specific requirements to that buff (for both the shaman & the target unit) and in my experience so far two often double up or are equally useless (at least on gutrippaz). I really like them as a boltboys amplifiers, though. With that being said, once opponents target them, the second one might become mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rachmani said: I agree, but there are rather specific requirements to that buff (for both the shaman & the target unit) and in my experience so far two often double up or are equally useless (at least on gutrippaz). I really like them as a boltboys amplifiers, though. With that being said, once opponents target them, the second one might become mandatory. Yeah the poisons and elixirs requirements seem designed specifically to hurt gutrippaz, plus the wierdness with their shields and the point cost all make it feel like they don't want you to play them. The biggest reason to take them as a damage dealing option is because sometimes you're gonna need something that can take a hit and still put out some damage. Shooting, magic, etc, can absolutely crush boltboyz because they're only 2 wounds on a 6+. Usually those armies are going to also be able to take out our shamans/sludgerakers pretty quickly as well though so its a bit of a moot point. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 I don’t think they are that bad. Far from it, actually. Just a tad too expensive. Imo the Sludgeraker is enough of a buff to male Gutrippaz pretty terrifying, while I use a shaman for the big unit of boltboys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 11:44 AM, Mutton said: I don't know what tabletop game you're playing, but it definitely isn't Warhammer. Or maybe you haven't played many actual games against LRL. I also don't know where this "kruleboyz always come out on top" thing is coming from. They get wiped out against plenty of other armies. From a KB perspective a lot of lists are built (out of convenience or perhaps sufficient strategic thought) to be particularly the sort of list LRL want to be fighting. You really need to be able to dictate the pace of the game against LRL which is why you see them struggle against BW and IJ. Normally KB can do this via dmg projection particularly with Boltboyz, but that doesn't work against LRL because of the fragility of Boltboyz. LRL don't do a lot of unit deleting damage, but even they can get together 12-18 dmg in a turn past screens and such. Without Boltboyz most KB lists have no pace dictating ability and thus the critical weakness to even a moderate amount of Sentinels or spell damage.@Horizons The Vulcha is interesting I'm mostly playing BW and at 240 its seems to bring enough utility, between fly, fast'un and supa sneaky. Generally I'm using it for broken ranks hunting. But I agree I sometimes look at the 70 points savings from the gnashtooth and wonder how much I'm getting from fly and life tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abstract_duck Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Ganigumo said: Yeah the poisons and elixirs requirements seem designed specifically to hurt gutrippaz, plus the wierdness with their shields and the point cost all make it feel like they don't want you to play them. I'd disagree. I think the point of the elixers is that the Kruleboyz are all about timing: strong bonusses, even guaranteed under the right circumstances, but only under certain conditions. in this case, on the (counter-)charge. The bonusses themselves are quite insane if you get them off. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Abstract_duck said: I'd disagree. I think the point of the elixers is that the Kruleboyz are all about timing: strong bonusses, even guaranteed under the right circumstances, but only under certain conditions. in this case, on the (counter-)charge. The bonusses themselves are quite insane if you get them off. a unit of 20 gutrippaz, with a shaman backing them, and a sludgeraker, are putting out about 20 damage as mortal wounds. that's good damage if you're hitting something with a good save characteristic, but is pretty weak for what you're paying against something with a low save. There's a ton of stuff in the game that can put out that kind of damage with less investment too. 20 Grave guard (280 points) with literally no support put out 13.67 vs 2+, 18.22 vs 3+, 22.78 vs 4+, 27.33 vs 5+, 31.89 vs 6+/-. Sure they've got 1" less movement, and are only 1 wound each but with the gutrippaz and the shaman its a difference of 185 points. I'm highlighting this to show that even with these buffs the damage isn't higher than what other armies get. For the same cost 9 boltboyz put out the same damage at range (with far less bulk and easier access to the buffs) The problem with the poisons and elixirs is that since the math scales so hard with # of attacks, and nothing else, gutrippaz are awful without buffs to compensate for it. There really isn't any reason for it to not work in combat except specifically to make Gutrippaz awful at playing the attrition game, which is further enforced by their skareshields also not working if they're in melee. But if Gutrippaz aren't good at attrition, what's the point of them (in a competitive sense)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predien Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 Hey everone! I ran this list at a small RT this weekend:Allegiance: Kruleboyz- Warclan: Big Yellers- Grand Strategy:- Triumphs:LeadersSnatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)- General- Command Trait: Slippery Skumbag- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast (315)Breaka-Boss on Mirebrute Troggoth (180)- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming WeaponBreaka-Boss on Mirebrute Troggoth (180)Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)- Lore of the Swamp: Choking MistSwampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)- Lore of the Swamp: Nasty HexBattleline9 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (360)- Reinforced x 210 x Gutrippaz (180)10 x Gutrippaz (180)Units10 x Hobgrot Slittaz (80)Total: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 2 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 132Drops: 10 (It was a 6 drop - not 10 - with a Command Entourage, 2 Battle Regiments, and 1 extra) Had a great time at the event. Went 1-2 with the win being against Seraphon Thunderlizards and the 2 losses being against a Dracothian Guard + Longstrike SCE list and a DoK list on Apex Predators (this game was not fun). I'm still getting practice in with the army and only have about 6 games under my belt (including the 3 I did at the event) with KBz. I did not like Slippery Skumbag as much as I was expecting so I plan on going back to Supa Sneaky for future games. Snatchaboss having a 10 man unit of rippaz entourage was pretty solid. Mirebrutes either make great pin cushions or dump out tons of damage on things - love them. I struggle with the army since it's very slow so I need to practice my early game movement and deployment so I'm getting into combat when I want to get into combat. I don't think this list is mega competitive but I had a blast piloting it. It seems to struggle toward the 2nd half of the game since when you get into combat you're not making a whole lot of saving rolls. Overall, I just need to get better with the army and get in more reps. Hope you all are having great luck with your lists! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Ganigumo said: a unit of 20 gutrippaz, with a shaman backing them, and a sludgeraker, are putting out about 20 damage as mortal wounds. that's good damage if you're hitting something with a good save characteristic, but is pretty weak for what you're paying against something with a low save. There's a ton of stuff in the game that can put out that kind of damage with less investment too. 20 Grave guard (280 points) with literally no support put out 13.67 vs 2+, 18.22 vs 3+, 22.78 vs 4+, 27.33 vs 5+, 31.89 vs 6+/-. Sure they've got 1" less movement, and are only 1 wound each but with the gutrippaz and the shaman its a difference of 185 points. I'm highlighting this to show that even with these buffs the damage isn't higher than what other armies get. For the same cost 9 boltboyz put out the same damage at range (with far less bulk and easier access to the buffs) The problem with the poisons and elixirs is that since the math scales so hard with # of attacks, and nothing else, gutrippaz are awful without buffs to compensate for it. There really isn't any reason for it to not work in combat except specifically to make Gutrippaz awful at playing the attrition game, which is further enforced by their skareshields also not working if they're in melee. But if Gutrippaz aren't good at attrition, what's the point of them (in a competitive sense)? I think they‘re very timing based. Now, I’m not saying they’re perfectly tuned but between their abilities, the buffs and our waaagh they can be really, really scary. It‘s a very synergistic intent, maybe not perfectly executed, but well enough that a point reduction will do wonders. At like 160-170 they open up quite a lot of other elements while keeping the same core. I wouldn’t be surprised to if in like half a year we see some lists doing really, really well. Lists we haven’t tested out so far. 60 Gutrippaz, 2 sludgerakers & a vulture. Maybe that’s ne good ******. P.S. 20 MW is terrifying in the age of savestacking when you think about it. We have our Waaagh. Edited November 1, 2021 by Rachmani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
novakai Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 From what I have seen, people underestimate the Gutrippaz 2 wounds and just being wounds sponges that can attack back with good damages. You definitely need to finesse them and use stuff like save stacking and rally to get your best mileage out of them. Maybe they are a bit over costed but they are definitely ok and can be really good. I do think though that always doom and glooming over the LRL match up is a bit much, since they are an overtune army but their are like 23 other armies out their that don’t have that kind of egregiousness abilities they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabbbio Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ganigumo said: There really isn't any reason for it to not work in combat except specifically to make Gutrippaz awful at playing the attrition game, which is further enforced by their skareshields also not working if they're in melee. But if Gutrippaz aren't good at attrition, what's the point of them (in a competitive sense)? Take note, even poisons and elixirs can't be given if gutrippaz are in melee. I think this army requires some finesse and micromanagement, where you want to engage combat only at the right moment and with the right units. Your charging with everyone only if you planning a whaagh, but in the most common situations you want at leat a unit not being engaged in order to use the skareshields and the poisons later. With this in mind, battleshock is also easier to manage. Edit: and tbh, do we even need to make more that 20 W in a single phase to an enemy horde unit? Edited November 1, 2021 by Fabbbio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Congratz Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 Whats the kicker at the moment on list in this faction? Looking to start a Orruk Warclans army focused on Kruleboyz (or big waagh not sure yet). Anything you could recommend? What works and so on. Cheers Lads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 LRL plays a lot like KB but are just better at it, in that regard KB seems like the balanced version of LRL. Main forces are spearmen and archers doing mortal wounds, same in that regard, but LRL got so many tools to ignore battleshock, become tankier and they are all spell casters too, which they can even get bonuses to. LRL also basically got the KB waaagh all the time by default. Comparing them rules wise there is little reason to play KB over LRL, Boltboyz is the workhorse but still falls short of the 360 noscope sentinels with up to 42" threat range with no LoS needed. Wardens are better anvils than rippaz, with more consistent damage output, better saves and defensive tools. LRL also got access to hyper fast cavalry and characters and the most powerful and versatile spells in the game with plenty of + to cast access. KB has none of that. Spell casting ability is poor, with medium range spells and rarely any bonuses to cast or unbind (I know there is the idol or BW zap em etc, but they are expensive and/or circumstantial). Poor saves and bravery hurts the units and they require substantial support to become effective, where LRL units can work much more independently. I think KB is the better designed army for the game though, it has some scary MW threats, but to do that they need to make a lot of sacrifices, they also have plenty of vulnerabilities, such as poor movement, meh magic, incredibly poor bravery and bad saves. LRL has tools to cover every single possible weakness, which is good for WAAC tournament play, but bad for the game as a whole. In regard to mobility: 15 hours ago, whispersofblood said: The Vulcha is interesting I'm mostly playing BW and at 240 its seems to bring enough utility, between fly, fast'un and supa sneaky. Generally I'm using it for broken ranks hunting. But I agree I sometimes look at the 70 points savings from the gnashtooth and wonder how much I'm getting from fly and life tanking. I think the Vulcha is there for that mobility the rest of the army lacks, even though I find it to be a bit weak, it can help with battleshock initially, and then be an important tool to get various battle tactics done. With the army being so slow, and neede the sludgerakers to stick with the main force, having a fast flyer is important to grab a lot of different battle tactics, while also being a monster unlike the Gnashtooth. My main issue with wanting the sludgeraker, vulcha and mirebrutes is the drops... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 I think LRL being better KB is actually interesting, once both factions settle one the right point values. So that problem will not last forever. As a faction I find them 100 times more interesting than some boring alpha strikers. It‘s just that the decisionmaking is not always there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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