AoS3 - Kruleboyz Discussion

[Rachmani]

19 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

More units (especially good ones) would only make the ineffective options we have now even less desirable by comparison. It's not a range problem, the army is just kinda bad.

But most units are not inherently bad just overcosted & carry too much weight on their shoulders. 
Right now Kruleboys get dominated by a bunch of second edition books that just counter them & are too expensive compared to the third edition books around.

[NauticalSoup]

34 minutes ago, Rachmani said:

But most units are not inherently bad just overcosted & carry too much weight on their shoulders. 
Right now Kruleboys get dominated by a bunch of second edition books that just counter them & are too expensive compared to the third edition books around.

There is no tangible distinction between overcosted and inherently bad. Gutrippas do nothing well, for example, but if they're cheap enough you'll use them regardless because at a certain price everything is effective. Their only special rule is junk and you'd remove it for a points discount (it's both ineffective AND badly written because it bogs down play for no reason). They have a choice to bring hand weapons that are essentially always a downgrade for no reason. Many other units have similar issues, that they'll never be good unless you price the army to play as a horde of individually ineffective units.

This is on top of it being a weak allegiance. And I don't buy the 2.0 book excuse, both BS and KB are sitting next to Ironjawz which are amazing so the idea that 3.0 books are always going to be depowered doesn't hold water even just inside warclans.

[woolf]

yeah I agree, imo it's a pity they didn't lean more into KB playing dirty, eg making the traps prevent a unit from charging if sprung, adding some mechanic to ****** with opponents ability to score objectives / battle tactics etc, that for me would capture the essence of playing dirty, being able to harass, stall and annoy

gutrippaz r clearly overcosted for what u get but dropping points would just turn them into cheap wound efficiency at best. sadly 

[woolf]

personally play them mainly for liking the models and as causual/ hobby project. will try exploring ally space some, as I think was mentioned before adding some trolls could be fun or kragnos/gargant. also the new spell-monster thing migth have a home with KB, let's see

[Tomplex]

8 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Funnily enough it's not that their units are bad per se. Badly costed maybe, yeah. But in terms of "what they do & how" Kruleboys are okay.

No, their problem is that the range plays like the designers stopped 2/3 into the intended miniature (and unit) range.

Gutrippa Cavalry, a non-hero monster, *some other unit* need to be released for them to get a push in list diversity. That & enough of a point drop that you can properly layer your units. Screen Gutrippaz with Hobgrots, counter attack with Gutrippaz (and the Kruleboys Whaaagh), all while shooting at stuff with a moderate amount of boltboys.

I agree wholeheartedly. Some kind of non hero monster would give skullbugz a reason to exist. A cav unit, or even an elite Infantry unit  that was battleline in grinning blades would add some necessary diversity to that subfaction. 

 

Also

 

Allegiance abilities that only work on a dice roll are not good.

 

Warscroll abilities that only work on a dice roll, only against certain units or in certain situations aren't worth paying points for. 

 

Please let shamans buff units in combat or give kruleboyz units an allegiance ability to retreat or redeploy out of combat after the battleshock phase or something. 

 

Please let the gnashtoof count as a subcommander, even if you have to drop a wound from it. I love that model, I love its rules, but it has such an opportunity cost attached to it. 

[Tomplex]

*double post*

Edited April 5, 2022 by Tomplex
Double post

[Rachmani]

2 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

There is no tangible distinction between overcosted and inherently bad. Gutrippas do nothing well, for example, but if they're cheap enough you'll use them regardless because at a certain price everything is effective. Their only special rule is junk and you'd remove it for a points discount (it's both ineffective AND badly written because it bogs down play for no reason). They have a choice to bring hand weapons that are essentially always a downgrade for no reason. Many other units have similar issues, that they'll never be good unless you price the army to play as a horde of individually ineffective units.

This is on top of it being a weak allegiance. And I don't buy the 2.0 book excuse, both BS and KB are sitting next to Ironjawz which are amazing so the idea that 3.0 books are always going to be depowered doesn't hold water even just inside warclans.

But there is a difference. Some things (like spears always being better than hand weapons on Gutrippaz) cannot be changed through costs. Others - Gutrippaz being too expensive for what they do - can. 

I'm very certain that the whole army will feel and play much differently once you're able to field enough bodies to come with the shooting. That's a price issue. 

Now, how to make Skullbugs work without a generic monster on the other hand... might just be a case of new units needed.

[NauticalSoup]

1 hour ago, Rachmani said:

But there is a difference. Some things (like spears always being better than hand weapons on Gutrippaz) cannot be changed through costs. Others - Gutrippaz being too expensive for what they do - can. 

I'm very certain that the whole army will feel and play much differently once you're able to field enough bodies to come with the shooting. That's a price issue. 

Now, how to make Skullbugs work without a generic monster on the other hand... might just be a case of new units needed.

The difference is between badly designed rules and inefficient pricing of units, and KB have both in spades. Nearly everything is 'overcosted'. It is also arguably in many cases 'inherently bad' if we use your definition, since they have a lot of crappy rules and design conflicts that just hurt the army's playability and internal cohesion.

All I'm pointing out is that there isn't anything that is inherently bad in the sense that it couldn't be very strong competitively - even the worst designed units can be OP if you make them cheap enough. 

[Mutton]

Also, all of their artifacts are garbage, and the nerf to Amulet of Destiny hurt.

But most of all, I agree with @woolf. They had an opportunity to make a tricky, unconventional army that always has the opponent thinking on their feet. Give them abilities that subvert the normal rules of the game.

But instead, they didn't really do anything interesting. The best thing we got were the dirty tricks...that we only get once...if we roll good enough.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mutton

[Arzalyn]

Honestly for me its the problem is in the combination of all that had been said so far.

We got a relative small model range that is quiet hero heavy and most of those warscrolls have problems or lack-luster rules. We have 10 heroes and 5 no-heroes warscrolls, of those 5:

- The Hobgrotz are chaff that have basically no synergy inside the army due to our buffs been locked to Orruk units.

- The Marshcrawla is a support piece that gives a buff that you don't want multiples of, as they don't stack. Also the buff isn't something most of our units want, as their damage usually come form the VEW triggers or they have bad atack profiles that +1 don't help fixing.

- The Killbow is a artillery piece specialized in killing monsters/high wound targets. They are super swing, basically depending on the VEW to do their job.

This leave us with 2 unit to use as the backbone of the army, Boltboyz and Gutrippaz. Enough as been said already of how they are over-coasted and their ability is rather useless, basically making them a overcoasted 2 wound screen that don't use our buffs well. This leave Boltboyz as the single unit that can use most of our buffs well + has a good price.

Strictly taking about roles, 5 units could be more them enough to build a army around, but our 5 units are too niche in their role and our synergies work against them. I would love more models, but honestly if the ones we have were better designed , rules-wise, we wouldn't need them. The most glaring roles we lack are a fast "cavalry" and a strong "elite" units. Both the mounted Killabosses could fill the Calvary role and the Mirebrute (our even the sloggoth) could fill the elite role. The problem is that they don't having a non-leader option (and, competitively wise, having more than 10 wounds) make hard to use them for such roles as you can hardly put more them 2 of them in the same list.

Another thing that hurt our list variety are our factions allegiances. VEW is really strong, but swing. Our waagh is good as well, but the actual rules don't incentivize a more melee focused list that would make good use of it. Dirty tricks has been cursed with the "Its destruction, so its need to be even more random!" (seriously,  the tricks already have restrictions on what we can target, just make them a D3 rather giving them a chance of failure, its just sucks).

Thanks to been a soup tome we get less traits, artefacts and subfactios them the normal book, which restrict even more the variety on our lists. Our traits are good and all of them are usable, the problem is the other categories. Our artefacts are really bad and our subfactions are super situational, except for the one that actually give some ok effects and free us from the gutrippaz battleline tax. Skullbugz in particular is laughable as our faction has just 2 monster options and both are leaders! Our mount traits and spell lore are good, but the spell in particular is harder to use as one of our 2 natural casters need to stop casting to give his buff.

All of those thing factor to give the problem at hand. The reduced allegiances + the rules of which warscroll can use/synergy with them are more restrictive them they need to be. The few rules that align end being the one that favor Boltboyz, which is our less restrictive warscroll (points and rules wise).

 

[woolf]

yep a lot of good comments here. just on the sub-factions, I know they are kinda being played down a bit in 3.0 but seriously our only one really considered is Big Yellers and that is basically just to get out of the deadlock that is imposed on a list for trying to run min 30 gutrippaz... at least how I see it, I kinda just start all my lists from Big Yellers so that I can include boltboyz for battle line, the range buff is quite nice but the re-roll a single 1 per unit in the very first phase... that is just a meme in our group and I think I honestly forget about it in around 70% of games.. even as we are laughing about how ridiculous it is.. reminds me of Idoneth old rituals that just never got off and you always tended to forget (and with them at least the non-fly one had a real impact)

[NauticalSoup]

The marshcrawla is a puzzler. Why is this unit in KB? It's basically a big waaagh unit with that warscroll.

There's also really unfortunate critical pieces in the shamans who are too expensive since you need that one warscroll ability and rarely get to utilize their spellcasting because for some reason you can't do them together. KB are probably the only list that regularly brings multiple wizards but casts no spells.

Hobgrots... well they've been beaten to death. Not sure why they're in the army to be honest, we could've just had gutrippaz come in fives and they'd do the same job better. These guys need to actually be a part of the army and not pointless pseudo-allies.

[Skreech Verminking]

 

10 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

The marshcrawla is a puzzler. Why is this unit in KB? It's basically a big waaagh unit with that warscroll.

There's also really unfortunate critical pieces in the shamans who are too expensive since you need that one warscroll ability and rarely get to utilize their spellcasting because for some reason you can't do them together. KB are probably the only list that regularly brings multiple wizards but casts no spells.

Hobgrots... well they've been beaten to death. Not sure why they're in the army to be honest, we could've just had gutrippaz come in fives and they'd do the same job better. These guys need to actually be a part of the army and not pointless pseudo-allies.

I’m personally not an Orruk player,

but as somebody who plays one of the currently considered worst faction skaven!

I have a few things I can share.

firstly I do agree that the gutrippaz are kinda bad, especially for their current price.

20 wounds that wound a bit better then a unit of clanrats for 50points more is kinda questionable, then. Again so are clanrats, both of which are currently overpriced by a bunch of points.

But come on hobbgrots are a pretty great meatshields.

They are not battle-line, which would mean that you won’t be giving of victory points to your opponent to easily, they can protect their battle-line boltboyz from dying, and are a unit your opponent really just wants to ignore.

you won’t care throwing out buffs to your hobbgrots, since they won’t be needing it anyways

and with their base size of 25mm you can basically have them in a 1 rank formation, with out much trouble, keeping your own army even saver.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[Beliman]

On 4/4/2022 at 5:16 PM, broche said:

Hey guys, quick rule question for Kruelboyz player:

Choking mist: 

Choking Mist is a spell that has a casting value of 7 and a range of 24". If successfully cast, pick a point on the battlefield within range and visible to the caster. All units within 6" of that point are affected by choking mist until the start of your next hero phase. While a unit is affected by choking mist, subtract 1 from the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by it (to a minimum of 1), and it cannot run.

Does you check the units once the spell is cast and thoses units stay affected until the next hero phase, or once they leave they are not affected anymore and it's just while they remain in the 6''?

 

I worte some days ago the same question in the Rules subforum:
https://www.tga.community/forums/forum/8-rules-questions/

I still think that RAQ, you get the "status" (being  "affected by choking mist") and doesn't matter if you move outside the circle because you are still affected by that "status". But maybe some people have another theory to how it should be played.

[Nixon]

So This is the active Kruleboyz tread? I think I just posted in the other one?

[Arzalyn]

6 minutes ago, Nixon said:

So This is the active Kruleboyz tread? I think I just posted in the other one?

The other one was supposed to be the new thread, as it is in the orruk warclans subforuns, but people never stoped using this one.

[Nixon]

OK Thanks. I will just have a read through of this one then, that might also answer my question from the other one.

Cheers Mate!

[NauticalSoup]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

 

I’m personally not an Orruk player,

but as somebody who plays one of the currently considered worst faction skaven!

I have a few things I can share.

firstly I do agree that the gutrippaz are kinda bad, especially for their current price.

20 wounds that wound a bit better then a unit of clanrats for 50points more is kinda questionable, then. Again so are clanrats, both of which are currently overpriced by a bunch of points.

But come on hobbgrots are a pretty great meatshields.

They are not battle-line, which would mean that you won’t be giving of victory points to your opponent to easily, they can protect their battle-line boltboyz from dying, and are a unit your opponent really just wants to ignore.

you won’t care throwing out buffs to your hobbgrots, since they won’t be needing it anyways

and with their base size of 25mm you can basically have them in a 1 rank formation, with out much trouble, keeping your own army even saver.

Since you're already forced to take squishy units as battleline, the 'not battleline for tactics' element doesn't matter. If you have KB you are bringing battleline that your opponent can one-shot, and that includes boltboyz. So ultimately it's just a downside since it means if you aren't big yellers you're stuck with gutrippaz and have now before buying a single hobgrot a quarter of your points are spent on chaff. You'd rather take them than gutrippaz as screens for your big yellers netlist but that doesn't make them good for the role. That, and scoring max on battle tactics doesn't seem to be an issue for most lists these days so I wouldn't make a list even a hair worse just to possibly deny a single battle tactic for an early turn.

25mms are good, but they don't single-handedly fix bad units. There are no shortage of good units on 25s to compare them to that show how mediocre the hobgrot is.

And as a pure chaff unit just look a few pages over to see the Ardboy if you want to see something that's actually good at being a meatshield.

[Skreech Verminking]

54 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Since you're already forced to take squishy units as battleline, the 'not battleline for tactics' element doesn't matter. If you have KB you are bringing battleline that your opponent can one-shot, and that includes boltboyz. So ultimately it's just a downside since it means if you aren't big yellers you're stuck with gutrippaz and have now before buying a single hobgrot a quarter of your points are spent on chaff. You'd rather take them than gutrippaz as screens for your big yellers netlist but that doesn't make them good for the role. That, and scoring max on battle tactics doesn't seem to be an issue for most lists these days so I wouldn't make a list even a hair worse just to possibly deny a single battle tactic for an early turn.

25mms are good, but they don't single-handedly fix bad units. There are no shortage of good units on 25s to compare them to that show how mediocre the hobgrot is.

And as a pure chaff unit just look a few pages over to see the Ardboy if you want to see something that's actually good at being a meatshield.

Well, Ironjwaz are anyways too strong and could probably use a few nerfs.

but hey, if I told you that there is a good chunk of skavenplayer out there that would kill-kill for a cheap screening unit like hobbgrots, that wouldn’t break their sub allegiance😝, would you feel better?

[NauticalSoup]

26 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well, Ironjwaz are anyways too strong and could probably use a few nerfs.

but hey, if I told you that there is a good chunk of skavenplayer out there that would kill-kill for a cheap screening unit like hobbgrots, that wouldn’t break their sub allegiance😝, would you feel better?

I mean both books are off in dumpsterland right now so doesn't seem surprising or notable. 

Actually big stabbas also do the same job at the same price (and aren't battleline!) but fit inside their faction allegiance and hit like a truck so even if we arbitrarily dismiss IJ hobgrots are still ass compared to similar options in the same release.

[Skreech Verminking]

37 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I mean both books are off in dumpsterland right now so doesn't seem surprising or notable. 

Actually big stabbas also do the same job at the same price (and aren't battleline!) but fit inside their faction allegiance and hit like a truck so even if we arbitrarily dismiss IJ hobgrots are still ass compared to similar options in the same release.

Last time I played stabbas, they did nothing but die.

the are pretty great at staying alive in units of 60, but that is about it.

But yeah, skaven and kruelboyz are in a terrible place

Edited April 6, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[NauticalSoup]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Last time I played stabbas, they did nothing but die.

Yeah but look at it this way: that's their job. If they do anything else it's gravy. Durability wise they're almost identical to hobgrotz (2 less wounds but a 6+ ward) and have a similar (slightly smaller) footprint. They cost the same. Neither are battleline. The difference is instead of an anemic attack profile they have 6 high rend high damage attacks at 3" range, and the unit can crack back with MWs when they die as a bonus. If your opponent kills them, great, whatever, that's why you brought them. If he ignores them they punch up really well. Solid unit, still one of the best in the BS range.

Unless you mean grot stabbas which is definitely not a cost efficient unit for just about anything lol.

[Ganigumo]

Grot stabbas were (and are) showing up in comp lists instead of hobgrots because they fit into battle regiment better. They serve the same purpose, screen or stick them on an objective somewhere. Being 20 strong base also means you don't need to spend a reinforcement point on making them durable enough to ensure they get to screen, as many armies have ways of clearing a small 10 wound screen before combat/charging. Its got very little to do with the actual warscroll, although the bonus netters are nice.

[NauticalSoup]

24 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Grot stabbas were (and are) showing up in comp lists instead of hobgrots because they fit into battle regiment better. They serve the same purpose, screen or stick them on an objective somewhere. Being 20 strong base also means you don't need to spend a reinforcement point on making them durable enough to ensure they get to screen, as many armies have ways of clearing a small 10 wound screen before combat/charging. Its got very little to do with the actual warscroll, although the bonus netters are nice.

Shootas too actually

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

Unless you mean grot stabbas which is definitely not a cost efficient unit for just about anything lol.

Oh your talking about a different kind of stabbas, sorry dude, I really thought you meant the grot stabbas😅

 

52 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Grot stabbas were (and are) showing up in comp lists instead of hobgrots because they fit into battle regiment better. They serve the same purpose, screen or stick them on an objective somewhere. Being 20 strong base also means you don't need to spend a reinforcement point on making them durable enough to ensure they get to screen, as many armies have ways of clearing a small 10 wound screen before combat/charging. Its got very little to do with the actual warscroll, although the bonus netters are nice.

If you say so.

the last few gloomspite armies I’ve seen have been either going all out trogs/squigs or was the min. Required battleline in stabbas/shootas, while supported by 2-4Loonbosses on manglers.

as for Kruelboyz, I can’t say much, I didn’t really follow them at all.

and I do agree stabbas are brilliant for holding objective, yet they cost almost as much as taking 20 hobbgrots in a unit.

you tell me if that is worth throwing your ally pool away for.

personally I don’t really know