AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[JackStreicher]

Just tested the new Nagash VS Ossiarchs
One Word: Disheartening.
 

[Wordy9th]

17 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Yeah with Vyrkos it's mostly the Spellcasting, coupled with the Command Trait and Artefact. The +1 to Wound is decent but with Mannfred often wasted, or difficult to guarantee being only 9".

Sangsyron gives average of 2 additional lance attacks, which combined with Mannfreds Aura and Bellas Spell, puts the VLoZD at some serious damage potential over the standard loadout, to the point that he one shot a Gargant for me without breaking a sweat (though on average it should survive if at full HP).

Counting as 14 also means he can reliably take an objective just by standing on it.

Being able to hide more of the army is definitely a major perk of Night, though it does mean not getting things like Mystic shield and the Command Trait up, if you come on and fail charges, could be difficult if you don't win the roll off. I would maybe consider Swift and Deadly to get it to a 7" rerollable perhaps.

 

Aye I did run Vyrkos for most of my games until a snap decision a couple weeks before the tournament. A couple games against shooty meta lists which were predominant in the tournament I attended made me feel like the sacrifice of the very good vyrkos combos you mention felt necessary to not lose key pieces early.

Not having the command trait up etc is certainly not great, but getting in with no wounds taken felt like a justifiable sacrifice. Consider it I did because I took that trait to the tournament to very good effect :).

13 hours ago, Sutek said:

Well done on the placing.  I've written a similar list I'm planning to try during March and maybe taking to a tournament.  The main difference in my list is I've got a block of six Vargheists instead of the skeletons and bats for even more starting off the board shenanigans.  

Thanks a bunch. I've been toying with the idea of swapping out the vlozd for a Vengorian lord which leaves me with the exact points needed for 3 vargeists. I hate how such a squishy unit is battleline but some extra spicy off the board dps feels like it could be a shout, I shall have to test.

[Honk]

6 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

I hate how such a squishy unit is battleline but some extra spicy off the board dps feels like it could be a shout, I shall have to test.

They have 12hp, are pretty fast and do decent damage… (4hits -1 2dmg) against grunts

also the deepstrike rule is a good one

[LeonBox]

On 2/23/2022 at 6:44 PM, Wordy9th said:

A stressful game that only got to the bottom of turn 2 before we ran out of time and ended up (with some stressful discussion) in a draw. Loremaster took the middle objective and landed the mortal wound rock endless spell in the middle of my skelton blob. Mannfred and GG killed the big mountain dude and a bunch of stuff, the Vlozd took out some hammer units on the right until we had to end it. Probably would have went on for another 2 hours before resolution but end of day fatigue was kicking in for both of us.

I'm curious as to why the game was so stressful, other than it being against the kings of NPE! 
 

On 2/23/2022 at 6:44 PM, Wordy9th said:

I took the turn, bats came back... 

I may be missing or misinterpreting a rule, but how do bats come back if they're wiped? I thought Endless Legions only allowed Deadwalkers and Deathrattle summonables to come back? 

[Liquidsteel]

48 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

I may be missing or misinterpreting a rule, but how do bats come back if they're wiped? I thought Endless Legions only allowed Deadwalkers and Deathrattle summonables to come back? 

You're correct, Fell Bats can't be brought back once destroyed.

[TechnoVampire]

LOOKING FOR A BIT OF HELP

Hello fellow SBGL fans. 

I’m looking for some help with a modelling mistake… I’ve built a vengorian lord and decided to dry fit the head to appreciate the model. However on attempting to remove it, to make painting easier, I found it’s actually very hard to do so. After numerous attempts to remove the head using various implements and becoming increasingly frustrated I managed to do so, but in the process I’ve destroyed the detail on the head beyond redemption. 

I have looked online to replace this part with no success, and I could use the Lukai Vai head, but I am very attached to the vengorion lord aesthetic for my army.

I’m hoping some of you wonderful people might have that head spare and would be willing to post it to me. (Of course I would cover any postage and supply a little extra for the effort and the part). I live in the UK.

If anyone reads this and would be sympathetic enough to aid me it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, TechnoVampire said:

I live in the UK.

If you‘d live a little further south I‘d send you mine (I should still have one somewhere in the abyss of my bits box) 😕

If no one else will help you we could try to send it to the UK (if I find it xD)

[TechnoVampire]

59 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

If you‘d live a little further south I‘d send you mine (I should still have one somewhere in the abyss of my bits box) 😕

If no one else will help you we could try to send it to the UK (if I find it xD)

Thanks you. That’s really kind and I appreciate the potential offer. How far south are you?? 😅

[Ghoooouls]

2 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

 

LOOKING FOR A BIT OF HELP

Hello fellow SBGL fans. 

I’m looking for some help with a modelling mistake… I’ve built a vengorian lord and decided to dry fit the head to appreciate the model. However on attempting to remove it, to make painting easier, I found it’s actually very hard to do so. After numerous attempts to remove the head using various implements and becoming increasingly frustrated I managed to do so, but in the process I’ve destroyed the detail on the head beyond redemption. 

I have looked online to replace this part with no success, and I could use the Lukai Vai head, but I am very attached to the vengorion lord aesthetic for my army.

I’m hoping some of you wonderful people might have that head spare and would be willing to post it to me. (Of course I would cover any postage and supply a little extra for the effort and the part). I live in the UK.

If anyone reads this and would be sympathetic enough to aid me it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Pretty sure I have one. I'll check tomorrow. Where abouts in the UK are you? If its too far to drop off you can just pay postage and its yours 

[TechnoVampire]

16 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

Pretty sure I have one. I'll check tomorrow. Where abouts in the UK are you? If its too far to drop off you can just pay postage and its yours 

Thank you you are an absolute star! 
 

I’m in South West Scotland (near Glasgow) and of course will cover postage. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by TechnoVampire

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

Thanks you. That’s really kind and I appreciate the potential offer. How far south are you?? 😅

Germany. But seems like someone from the UK can help

Edited February 25, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Wordy9th]

15 hours ago, LeonBox said:

I'm curious as to why the game was so stressful, other than it being against the kings of NPE! 
 

I may be missing or misinterpreting a rule, but how do bats come back if they're wiped? I thought Endless Legions only allowed Deadwalkers and Deathrattle summonables to come back? 

The bats was a mistake it seems! Luckily it would have made no difference to the match as I could have brought back 10 zombies to do the same thing anyway.

As for the Lumineth game the situation wasn't so much his army, or the player himself (he was quite nice), it was the fact it was near 8pm and we hadn't even finished turn two. We went into turn 3 with me winning priority and most of my stuff on the board (and a fair bit of his) and a point ahead and our tired brains (we'd been playing from 9:30 until 8pm) had to try and 'play out' the game from this point which was borderline impossible with so many variables still in play. The process was fairly terse and took a while until eventually a draw was agreed on, but lessons were learned as it was both our first tournaments. I bought him a drink afterwards and it was all good in the end!

A huge challenge of tournaments is the amount of rules being thrown at you, I enjoyed the Dragons game because I knew what they did, but the Seraphon and Lumineth games were a barrage of 'my things do this' and getting games under your belt is the only way to get through the variables that can be thrown your way, especially with an army like SBGL which has so many itself!

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah it's always tough because those types of games can easily go 5 hours. Having to "talk it out" with 3 full turns remaining is so hard and someone will end up feeling hard done by. It's just not that easy to fit a game in to 3 hours these days with all the decisions.

We tried playing a practice game with a Chess Clock a few weeks ago at our club night, as it will be in play at the Worlds tournament (not me, I'm not on the team) and its actually crazy; if both your armies are quite complex, with decisions and actions to be taken in almost every phase, the time just evaporates. It also means you can't socialise, you have to just play and be thinking ahead at all times.

It's for this reason that I know I prefer more elite style armies when it comes to getting 5 turns done, as you can get the game done AND enjoy the social aspect of playing new people. I'm running about as horde style as I will ever play this weekend and I hope to do well with it, though I'm pretty sure I will default to a Kastelai Blood Knights and Triple Monster for the next one.

[Wordy9th]

Absolutely. This was also with us really rushing the dice and playing fast and loose with coherency on my skeletons etc just to pick up the pace. The last half an hour was just two frowning faces rushing through mechanics and that's not really how AoS should be played. 

For sure, it's a sacrifice of playing horde based armies. If you want 5 full turns your opponent needs to make decisions in the instant, know exactly what he's doing and probably also not have a horde army himself. In the meantime you'd better know all your ****** too, and even with all that taken into account with the fatigue of so many games back to back your thinking time is precious indeed. 

I don't think I'd move to a more elite army, -to me SBGL is all about those shambling hordes- but I'm always a little bit jealous of those sub 30 model armies that run around and get ****** done. I spent most of my games, including the ones where I was very ahead, taking my skeletons and zombies off the board and putting them back on again. This was also with everything on movement trays and magnetized! 

[Liquidsteel]

Yeah, I mean you can still take some chaff even with the "elite style", 2 x 20 zombies make good screens for your monster heroes and blood knights to hide behind early.

But it comes down to preference on playstyle and I find messing around with 25mm models frustrating at times, you knock a banner over, or you remove a model and 2 others get hooked on. I try to be precise with pile ins and stuff and it can be backbreaking over 5 games.

My current list is 84 models plus lifeswarm and thats about the most I can handle; 2 x 10 Wolves, 1 x 20 Grave Guard, 1 x 40 zombies.

[AHexInScarletRed]

Does the aura of Mannfred's CA move with him, or does it only affect the units that are within 12" when issued and stays with them even when Mannfred moves away? 

So: Mannfred is next to a unit of Blood Knights, issues the Command, flies away to a unit of Zombies, which of the units now benefits from the buff? 

Didn't find anything on that, please enlighten me and, if possible, I'd appreciate a source I can show to my gaming group x) 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

Does the aura of Mannfred's CA move with him, or does it only affect the units that are within 12" when issued and stays with them even when Mannfred moves away? 

So: Mannfred is next to a unit of Blood Knights, issues the Command, flies away to a unit of Zombies, which of the units now benefits from the buff? 

Didn't find anything on that, please enlighten me and, if possible, I'd appreciate a source I can show to my gaming group x) 

If I remember right, this question was discussed when the book came out, but I don't think there was a consensus.

For casual purposes, I think it's fie to just pick one way to play it and stick to it, since both have upsides and downsides. If a model broadcasts a buff aura, that aura would go away if the model dies. If it's a pulse instead, it would not move with the model.

Personally, I prefer it as an aura. I think that makes more intuitive sense.

[umpac]

12 hours ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

Does the aura of Mannfred's CA move with him, or does it only affect the units that are within 12" when issued and stays with them even when Mannfred moves away? 

So: Mannfred is next to a unit of Blood Knights, issues the Command, flies away to a unit of Zombies, which of the units now benefits from the buff? 

Didn't find anything on that, please enlighten me and, if possible, I'd appreciate a source I can show to my gaming group x) 

I think its pretty straight forward. If you look at his sword ability it says that they get +1A as long as they are within 12". The CA doesnt say anything like that so he simply pumps them up in the hero phase and they stay buffed until you next hero phase regardless of where Mannfred is.

[Liquidsteel]

I've always played it as an aura, both sides obviously have pros and cons but never considered it anything but an aura.

Usually it means being on one side of the board, then using charge and teleport to get in range of the unit/s you want to buff.

Actually, this exact scenario is addressed in the core rules FAQ - It's an Aura that only applies "while they are wholly within 12" of him".

Spoiler

 Some older command abilities specify that the effect of the command ability applies to multiple units within a certain distance of the unit that is issuing the command (for example, all friendly units with a specific keyword). When this is the case, the command is both issued and received by the same model, even though the effect of the command applies to the specified units within the specified range. The model that issued the command cannot issue or receive another command in that phase (because a model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase and a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase), but could do so in a future phase even if the effect of the command lasts for longer than the phase in which the command was issued. The other units that benefit from the effect of the command do not count as having received the command (and so are not prevented from receiving a different command in the same phase).

For example, the Vigour of Undeath command ability on the Mannfred von Carstein warscroll says:  ‘You can use this command ability once per turn in your hero phase. If you do so, add 1 to hit and wound rolls for friendly Soulblight Gravelords units wholly within 12" of this model until your next hero phase.’  

This command is issued and received by Mannfred von Carstein in your hero phase, but until your next hero phase, you can add 1 to hit and wound rolls for friendly Soulblight Gravelords units while they are wholly within 12" of him. Mannfred could not issue or receive another command in the hero phase in which the command was issued, but he could do so in future phases. Other units benefiting from the effect of the command can still receive a command (for example, they could receive the All-out Defence command in the subsequent combat phase whilst also benefiting from Vigour of Undeath).

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Wordy9th]

Absolutely correct.

How did your tournament go, @Liquidsteel?

[Liquidsteel]

4 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

Absolutely correct.

How did your tournament go, @Liquidsteel?

I came 4th out of 94! Soft scores were a thing and I got 3 best sports votes, which bumped me up at least 10 places in the final standings.

I went 4-1, quick rundown below. By losing my first game I had a pretty easy run, avoiding all of the filthy Dragons, Longstrikes and Dinosaurs. This is called submarining and it's what got me my last 4-1 back in October also.

 

Game 1 vs Toby Meadows and his Knights of the Empty Throne with 2 x 6 Varanguard as the stars, plus a Sorc Lord on Manticore, Warshrine and then a bunch of Iron Golems. We played Power Struggle. It was a back and forth game, I needed the double in to 3 or definitely in to 4 to put myself in a position to challenge for it, but the dice were against me. I think I rolled 1 on every priority as well as various other critical rolls. Great game though.

Game 2 vs Brandon Watkins and his Ironjawz on Veins of Ghur. Brandon is a club mate of mine though we had never played as he was a bit out of it the last couple of years and this was his first tournament back. I effectively tabled him by turn 4, highlight was my VLoZD surviving his Waaagh'd up Mawkrusha.

Game 3 vs Michael Wilding and his Stormcast on Survival of the Fittest. Michael brought a weird list with 2 x 10 Protectors, Yndrasta, Gardus etc. Protectors are mighty tanky and can chop hordes to shreds so I was wary, but I managed to get off a double-Fading Vigour in to one unit and nullify him. He failed his battle tactics turn 1 and 2 and we called it after I won the double in to turn 3.

Game 4 vs Andy Brown and his Nighthaunt with Nagash on Tooth and Nail. Bit of a tricky one as had to deploy everything on the board and he could keep teleporting around, keeping away from my Grave Guard. He made an error turn 1 and wiped my zombies whilst failing to zone out his home objective from my gravesite. On a 5+ I would have denied his Battle Tactic as well as hold 2 and hold more, but I rolled a 1. In my turn 1 I had the opportunity to again sneak that objective, but again rolled 1, and then rolled a 1 for the priority! The game ran out of time in turn 4 and he had to make a big attempt to win the game, having to charge and kill my VLoZD with Nagash after I managed to unbind spell portal and two Arcane bolts. He made a long charge and honestly I should have been toast, until he missed 2 attacks with the rend 3 D6 damage staff and I proceeded to roll double 6's to save them (needed 5's). I then saved enough Sword attacks and he rolled low on his bolts and I survived with 3 wounds remaining.

Game 5 vs Steve Brown and his Knights of the Empty Throne, with Be'Lakor and a Khorne Daemon Prince on Feral Foray. I learned enough from my game 1 vs Toby to understand how the Varanguard work with their 6" pile ins and fight twice etc and managed to play fairly cagey, getting a 1 VP lead early thanks to Belladamma and forcing him to come to me. I managed to win the game in turn 4 where I won the double and killed his Varanguard "General" after having whittled them down to 3 models over 2 turns, but it was so close as they were on +2 save. 

Some things that worked well - Belladamma making herself a Monster to score 3 with Ferocious Advance each turn was great as it allows me to play a bit more defensively. The list also controls space very well between the Zombies and Wolves, several redeploys caught people out. I redeployed my Zombies forwarded when Steve moved his Untamed Beasts up in turn 2, allowing me to pile in and kill all but 3. In my turn I then rolled a 6 on the damage of Lycancurse and spawned 3 wolves, which allowed me to run on to one of his objectives and burn it, as he only had the Warshrine there. Just Belladamma in general to be honest.

I did also score very little on Kill Points, which was the tie breaker after tournament points and the reason I would have been so low down on the order of 4-1s if it hadn't been for the soft scores. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[warhammernerd]

On 2/25/2022 at 10:29 AM, Liquidsteel said:

Yeah it's always tough because those types of games can easily go 5 hours. Having to "talk it out" with 3 full turns remaining is so hard and someone will end up feeling hard done by. It's just not that easy to fit a game in to 3 hours these days with all the decisions.

We tried playing a practice game with a Chess Clock a few weeks ago at our club night, as it will be in play at the Worlds tournament (not me, I'm not on the team) and its actually crazy; if both your armies are quite complex, with decisions and actions to be taken in almost every phase, the time just evaporates. It also means you can't socialise, you have to just play and be thinking ahead at all times.

It's for this reason that I know I prefer more elite style armies when it comes to getting 5 turns done, as you can get the game done AND enjoy the social aspect of playing new people. I'm running about as horde style as I will ever play this weekend and I hope to do well with it, though I'm pretty sure I will default to a Kastelai Blood Knights and Triple Monster for the next one.

This is, I think, the single bigest failing of the game as it currently stands. An army game which has to play like a skirmish game becuase the rules dont support the sort of game it says it is. Its also, though less so... a failing of the tourny scene. Perhaps, just maybe... events need to run longer so as not to shoehorn the game into a form which is less aesthetically pleasing, unfair to many armies (which rely on them being armies, not just 12 models), and subject to massive balance issues (how the hell do you balance 800 pt models effectively?). 

[warhammernerd]

If the game is ever going to work as a tournamnet game (putting to one side balance issues), it needs to be playable within 3hrs (and thats pushing it for many). As such, the rules need to take into account many of the armies which want to (a) look like armies, (b) stand a chance of winning based on the fact they consist of hordes of models (skaven). It might be that the game needs to make bold strides to speed up determining outcomes of combat (for example) with large units. Perhaps.. dare I say it utilsing an approach similar to Epic with blast markers, Kings of War (though I'm totaly not into large units being fixed on bases). Dunno, it just seems that this comes up often, the time issue... either people moaning about the necessity to paint lots of models and therefore preferring to play small elite armies (which presents itself as an issue for GW, they dont want to deter people from starting on account of overwhelming model syndrome, so they push elite small amries / large models / battleline monsters etc) or the time constraints of playing with so many models. Both of which are a shame really when you consider the arc of wargames in general, what they are supposed to represent (fantasy / historical) and how we all might imagine they play.

Rant over. Soz

[Obeisance]

.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Obeisance

[Craze]

I was wondering if you guys think that the Vargskyr has any place in a semi-competitive list? From the first look it is fast, packs a decent punch for its points and thanks to its two quality attack profiles benefits nicely from e.g. "Call to then Hunt".

Any thoughts?