AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Liquidsteel]

4 hours ago, Nightseer2012 said:

So Nagash, 3x 20 Skeletons, 1x20 GG, a Vampire Lord, and Umbral Spellportal gets you to 1955.  I like the idea of LoB to give the Lord Soulbound Garments and Arcane Expertise.  Soul-Crushing contempt meshes well with LoB and Nagash’s spells, but that really depends what army your fighting.

Or easily go Vyrkos to get the +1 to wound on the GG, Sangsyron on the Lord and go for extra choppiness.

Either way, it is all Summonable, so your getting those bodies back.  All depends if your aiming for “fun vs winning” I suppose.

Better taking 30 / 10 / 10 and adding a Necromancer for Van Hels. Still fits in a 1 drop.

[Warbossironteef]

I still think people should look at 20xWolves with Nagash not Skellies. Returning 2 wound models and adding an additional model with his new ability is really nice. 40x wounds with a 5++ with Rally and Nagash healing seems pretty nice.

I honestly think there is a legit argument for 30x wolves and Nagash. Pin in enemy army and try to allow Nagash and GG clean up. Not sure if I'd want to be the 30x Wolves guy but it could be quite good.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

I still think people should look at 20xWolves with Nagash not Skellies. Returning 2 wound models and adding an additional model with his new ability is really nice. 40x wounds with a 5++ with Rally and Nagash healing seems pretty nice.

I honestly think there is a legit argument for 30x wolves and Nagash. Pin in enemy army and try to allow Nagash and GG clean up. Not sure if I'd want to be the 30x Wolves guy but it could be quite good.

Two wound models are a bit janky with new Nagash. Worst case, a model is left on one wound and then you only heal 1 wound from Invocation of Nagash and get no extra models, either, because Supreme Lord triggers only when you return models, not when you heal wounds. You would need to additionally cast Invigorating Aura to get two models back in that case.

But the wolf pin strategy might work with Nagash, anyway. Maybe you can even fit in the full support suite of Belladamma and a hero with Driven by Deathstench for that turn 1 guaranteed 25" threat range.

[Warbossironteef]

8 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Two wound models are a bit janky with new Nagash. Worst case, a model is left on one wound and then you only heal 1 wound from Invocation of Nagash and get no extra models, either, because Supreme Lord triggers only when you return models, not when you heal wounds. You would need to additionally cast Invigorating Aura to get two models back in that case.

But the wolf pin strategy might work with Nagash, anyway. Maybe you can even fit in the full support suite of Belladamma and a hero with Driven by Deathstench for that turn 1 guaranteed 25" threat range.

Dang I didn't realize that until I just reread it. You're right and that is a bit janky. Any odd amount of wounds makes that tough. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Sception]

All these heal/return rules would work so much more smoothly if they were written to both heal and return at the same time.  Like, heal damaged models one wound at a time, and if no damaged models than restore one slain model with a single wound remaining and continue to heal from there.

[Liquidsteel]

I had a mini break from Nagash today with 2 games against my friends Slaanesh, obviously in my favour but was fun taking Vhordrai and Bella out for a spin.

 

On topic, I next plan to test new Nagash with a slightly different build to before, running a brick of 10 blood knights with the lifeswarm in support. Between rally and lifeswarm you're looking at potentially 3 knights returned "for free". 

 

Vamp Lord slots back in to unlock the additional endless spell. Certainly not as efficient offensively but the aim is to play with two main threats, bats for unleash hell, one unit of knights flanking if needed.

 

It could end up just a gimmick but I'm excited to try it.

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (955)
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate

Battleline
10 x Blood Knights (390)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blood Knights (195)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
Drops: 1
 

[Kaizennus]

On 12/30/2021 at 4:08 AM, Liquidsteel said:

I had a mini break from Nagash today with 2 games against my friends Slaanesh, obviously in my favour but was fun taking Vhordrai and Bella out for a spin.

 

On topic, I next plan to test new Nagash with a slightly different build to before, running a brick of 10 blood knights with the lifeswarm in support. Between rally and lifeswarm you're looking at potentially 3 knights returned "for free". 

 

Vamp Lord slots back in to unlock the additional endless spell. Certainly not as efficient offensively but the aim is to play with two main threats, bats for unleash hell, one unit of knights flanking if needed.

 

It could end up just a gimmick but I'm excited to try it.

 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (955)
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate

Battleline
10 x Blood Knights (390)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Blood Knights (195)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)

Units
3 x Fell Bats (75)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95
Drops: 1
 

I think with this list you’d at least want pinions on the v.lord. He’s going to have a tough time keeping up with blood knights and his artefact and CT both have limited ranges.

[Liquidsteel]

4 hours ago, Kaizennus said:

I think with this list you’d at least want pinions on the v.lord. He’s going to have a tough time keeping up with blood knights and his artefact and CT both have limited ranges.

Possibly, though with an auto run he can be where he needs to be. Both items are single use so really its just turn 1 or 2 then he's free to do whatever. 

He would also be on duty for getting whichever endless Nagash doesn't cast out, as you can only cast one I think.

Levitate on the blood knights could be spicy but it's just there to see right now.

[Warbossironteef]

Anyone here currently running or test  30x Wolves and Bella? It sort of seems ridiculous at first but in practice could bring a lot of things to the army. 

I was curious about positioning and deployment if you have experience using it! I only have 10 wolves right now.

I'm hoping to mess around with something like the below on TTS. If you can make the 30x Wolves work as a tarpit unit it would be interesting. I also think Grave-sand Shard has some potential. It makes your Blood Knights even more tankier the turn they crash into something. It can be used in any Hero Phase too. Lacks high rend, but Bloodknights can get +1 attack, exploding 6s and Rousing Commander. I think it's an interesting list! 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Radukar the Beast (315)
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
UNITS
30 x Dire Wolves (405)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
TOTAL: 1975/2000 WOUNDS: 165

Edited January 3, 2022 by Warbossironteef

[Liquidsteel]

5 hours ago, Warbossironteef said:

Anyone here currently running or test  30x Wolves and Bella? It sort of seems ridiculous at first but in practice could bring a lot of things to the army. 

I was curious about positioning and deployment if you have experience using it! I only have 10 wolves right now.

I'm hoping to mess around with something like the below on TTS. If you can make the 30x Wolves work as a tarpit unit it would be interesting. I also think Grave-sand Shard has some potential. It makes your Blood Knights even more tankier the turn they crash into something. It can be used in any Hero Phase too. Lacks high rend, but Bloodknights can get +1 attack, exploding 6s and Rousing Commander. I think it's an interesting list! 

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty

LEADERS
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)
- General
- Command Trait: Rousing Commander
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Radukar the Beast (315)
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
UNITS
30 x Dire Wolves (405)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)
TOTAL: 1975/2000 WOUNDS: 165

I like Grave Sand Shard, I've been running it in Kastelai for a long time now, solid Artefact and combined with Nagash you can get Blood Knights on a 4+ rr 1s Ward.

On the subject of 30 Wolves, I think the list needs to be 1 drop in order to successfully pin the opponent in turn 1. Too many other 1 drop lists around right now.

You are also likely best going Vyrkos with Spoor Trackers for the extra 3". This puts the Wolves on a 25" (3 + 10 + 6 + 6) inch threat range turn 1.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[Tizianolol]

How you can put 39 wolves on table , coherency makes it so hard !:(

[Liquidsteel]

8 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

How you can put 39 wolves on table , coherency makes it so hard !:(

do them in triangles of 3. You can do 20 front row and 10 second row.

[Btimmy]

I've been playing with a Vyrkos list that I think is pretty nice, not sure how different it is from your sort of standard list. The 2x20 GG prove to be very reliable at murdering everything. I tend to try to split them up with one supported by the baby vamp lord and one near the necro. The Big vamp lord is a very mobile big dmg threat (dmg 5 lance on the charge with 3+1d3 attacks if flaming weapons goes off), and both Belladamma and the necro are fairly difficult to snipe due to the bodyguard ability. One worry is always the baby vamp general getting killed early, but I haven't had too much problem using LoS in my deployment and then pinions to get him where he needs to go after. Not much to do against LrL, but at least Belladamma means if he gets killed I still have a general and they probably put a lot of shooting to finish off a 5-wound hero so my crackback will be pretty good. 

 

Love to know peoples thoughts or comments, and happy to answer any questions about the list!

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Vampire Lord (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Pack Alpha
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**
10 x Dire Wolves (135)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)***

Units
20 x Grave Guard (280)***
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grave Guard (280)***
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment
***Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 153
Drops: 8
 

[Liquidsteel]

2 hours ago, Btimmy said:

I've been playing with a Vyrkos list that I think is pretty nice, not sure how different it is from your sort of standard list. The 2x20 GG prove to be very reliable at murdering everything. I tend to try to split them up with one supported by the baby vamp lord and one near the necro. The Big vamp lord is a very mobile big dmg threat (dmg 5 lance on the charge with 3+1d3 attacks if flaming weapons goes off), and both Belladamma and the necro are fairly difficult to snipe due to the bodyguard ability. One worry is always the baby vamp general getting killed early, but I haven't had too much problem using LoS in my deployment and then pinions to get him where he needs to go after. Not much to do against LrL, but at least Belladamma means if he gets killed I still have a general and they probably put a lot of shooting to finish off a 5-wound hero so my crackback will be pretty good. 

 

Love to know peoples thoughts or comments, and happy to answer any questions about the list!

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)*
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Vampire Lord (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Pack Alpha
- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine Pinions
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)**
10 x Dire Wolves (135)*
10 x Dire Wolves (135)***

Units
20 x Grave Guard (280)***
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Grave Guard (280)***
- Great Wight Blades
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment
***Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1960 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 153
Drops: 8
 

I think that looks like the ideal set up for 2 x 20 GG to be honest, looks fun as well.

I would maybe consider making the VLoZD the general as he's harder to kill but it paints an even bigger target on him, though that may then take heat off of your foot vamp. You will get use out of Pack Alpha on him anyway as he'll always be using some form of command ability each turn. 

Did you also maybe consider Hunter's Snare to have him count as 14 on objectives?

The only other consideration I might have is whether Radukar the Beast could be utilised, thanks to the new rule where a Summonable unit can fight immediately after, he could potentially be buffing up two units of Grave Guard whilst also allowing him to fight followed immediately after by one of them.

[Wordy9th]

He sounds great on paper (Radukar the beast), though getting that charge buff off on the same turn that the grave guard charge seems to be easier said than done.

Either GG are being summoned from a grave site and have to make a 9+, or they've been allowed to slowly walk up while Radukar has been holding back waiting for his moment. (Or, third option, Graveguard have got in first and have survived being attacked for a whole turn!)

 

 

 

[Liquidsteel]

I've been riding the Blood Knights train for a long time now so haven't got much recent experience with either unit, but initially I was running Grave Guard with Bella and Radukar etc, just one unit though.

My main tactic was to deploy both the GG and a unit of Zombies in the grave, then have both set up at the same time with the zombies acting as a screen. Depending if the opponent had 3" reach or not the GG could sit 2.5" behind the zombies in order to counterpunch, as opposed to popping out and trying for a 9". 

Then Radukar can combo the following turn.

You're probably looking at turn 2 onwards for the main combats I guess.

[Le Chef]

I have to say that this is my general problem with Grave Guard. Once they get into combat they kill everything, but they can also die easily before getting into combat (or immediately after their first attack). This happened a bit too often now and I'm having a go with blood knights again.

When running GG I'll also put them just within 3' of a zombie screen so they can counter attack. This however only works well against enemies without shooting. Simply hoping for the 9' charge after popping them from a gravesite (which can easily be guarded) is not reliable enough imo

Edited January 5, 2022 by Le Chef

[Btimmy]

7 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

I think that looks like the ideal set up for 2 x 20 GG to be honest, looks fun as well.

I would maybe consider making the VLoZD the general as he's harder to kill but it paints an even bigger target on him, though that may then take heat off of your foot vamp. You will get use out of Pack Alpha on him anyway as he'll always be using some form of command ability each turn. 

Did you also maybe consider Hunter's Snare to have him count as 14 on objectives?

The only other consideration I might have is whether Radukar the Beast could be utilised, thanks to the new rule where a Summonable unit can fight immediately after, he could potentially be buffing up two units of Grave Guard whilst also allowing him to fight followed immediately after by one of them.

Making the big vampire the general is a valid point, but as you said it does paint a big target on his back. I also find myself using the free command point on +1 attack from the baby vampire. Hunter's snare is strong definitely, but I haven't found a real need for it so far because typically I have the bodies to either outnumber, with blobs of zombies, or the Big Vamp kills enough models that counting as 5 is sufficient. 

The list had the beast initially but I ended up cutting him. He is susceptible to roar, doesn't output a huge amount of damage, and doesn't fly, which makes positioning him awkward. I also am typically trying to avoid having both units of GG in combat in one turn because that means one of them is going to get hit before they can activate, and they sort of evaporate if that happens. Plus even though the free 10 wolves are nice, i actually found that the board is pretty clogged up, and with 30 wolves on the table it makes for getting my GG/Zombies/Big vampire lord into the units I want to get them into slightly annoying. 

[Wordy9th]

While we're on the subject of movement, I feel this and positioning are some of the big challenges with the army that requires a fair bit of experience.

Simply put, maneuvering all your pieces into place with so many bodies, trying to get your main hammer with 4 inch move made of paper into contact while keeping baby vampire lord not sniped seem to be my main challenges while playing.

Paticularly, what are people's main strategies for screening and positioning in a list like this (or any soulblight list that isnt nagash and 25 bloodknights) when you're forced to go first and you're looking at the potential looming double? I've played around 11 games so far against mainly melee heavy armies and I'm dreading going up against some kind of meta stormcast castle with six longstrikes and countercharging fulminators.

[Honk]

10 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

While we're on the subject of movement, I feel this and positioning are some of the big challenges with the army that requires a fair bit of experience.

That’s why SoB mega are a thing…

the right positioning and delivery of the guards is a major issue.
With LoN you can ambush to steal objectives, wolves are nice screens and after the first beating, the remaining 3-4 can flee into new assignments…

Same could be said for 10 skellis. Slows the general advance, but make a good speedbump or babysitter.

fulminators could be debuffed, longstrikes can be pestered with ambush wolves or bats… or riders of ruin blood knights

[oggurt_da_bog_zombie]

Wanted to address a specific part of your list/comments:

On 1/4/2022 at 10:30 PM, Btimmy said:

The Big vamp lord is a very mobile big dmg threat (dmg 5 lance on the charge with 3+1d3 attacks if flaming weapons goes off

Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (435)**
- Deathlance
- Artefact: Sangsyron
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Necromancer (125)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Decrepify
 

So I've been thinking about this VLoZD loadout a lot lately... and I might instead try arcane tome and vile transference. Don't get me wrong, Sangsyron and Flaming Weapon are awesome, and I also would make the VLoZD the general for either Pack Alpha or Hunters Snare, but I've been thinking about an alternative route.

The idea is the VLoZD is by far the unit most likely to be in combat for like... the entire game. That means close range. For most low wound models, an 3"/D3 arcane bolt can be effective, and for high wound models (Maw Krusha's, Mega Gargants, any hero monster really), Vile Transference seems like it could be pretty deadly (I think the sweet spot would be around 8+ wounds, VT is more effective), and with Locus of Shyish sorta a nuclear bomb scenario against of Mega Gargant. Of course, you could just take Vile Transference and still take Sangsyron, but I'm thinking of taking the Arcane Tome as well to cast Mystic Shield, Arcane Bolt, or VLoZDs warscroll spell (seems useful if only for the longish range) too. With Vyrkos re-rolls to cast, seems potentially more deadly against high wound models than the normal Flaming Weapon and Sangsyron combo, and against low wound models the VLoZD is probably doing enough damage anyway. Of course, this makes even more sense if you're taking Hunters Snare and parking the VLoZD on an objective the whole game (and therefore, less utility from charge bonuses).

Something to think about, I have a list in mind very similar to yours but with wolves and Radukar the Beast, but the VLoZD playing a similar role.

Edited January 6, 2022 by oggurt_da_bog_zombie
formatting

[Evil Bob]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:49 AM, Liquidsteel said:

do them in triangles of 3. You can do 20 front row and 10 second row.

Thank you new coherency rules for making this a necessity.

*vomits a little*

[Evil Bob]

On 12/22/2021 at 1:54 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Still, the old ability with Blood Knights was probably better. The impact  when you build a list full of 2+ hit and save units is just greater. I doubt new Nagash will be as good competitively. Which I think was probably the point of the rewrite, so mission accomplished, I guess. But I don't agree that Nagash is worse to the point of being unusable now, like some are saying.

Remember when GWs answer to any complaints about Nagash was to up his point cost? It was a multi-punchline bad joke. Sometimes I wonder if any of those complainers are the same people who feel Kragnos came out the gate too expensive.

I only bring out old Nagash in multi-player mega battles for the Lulz. He is really fun in those narrative battles.

[Aztok]

57 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

Thank you new coherency rules for making this a necessity.

*vomits a little*

Activate the Whirling Wolfnado! A necessity, ever since the third age began, and handholding became the social norm.

[Btimmy]

5 hours ago, oggurt_da_bog_zombie said:

Wanted to address a specific part of your list/comments:

So I've been thinking about this VLoZD loadout a lot lately... and I might instead try arcane tome and vile transference. Don't get me wrong, Sangsyron and Flaming Weapon are awesome, and I also would make the VLoZD the general for either Pack Alpha or Hunters Snare, but I've been thinking about an alternative route.

The idea is the VLoZD is by far the unit most likely to be in combat for like... the entire game. That means close range. For most low wound models, an 3"/D3 arcane bolt can be effective, and for high wound models (Maw Krusha's, Mega Gargants, any hero monster really), Vile Transference seems like it could be pretty deadly (I think the sweet spot would be around 8+ wounds, VT is more effective), and with Locus of Shyish sorta a nuclear bomb scenario against of Mega Gargant. Of course, you could just take Vile Transference and still take Sangsyron, but I'm thinking of taking the Arcane Tome as well to cast Mystic Shield, Arcane Bolt, or VLoZDs warscroll spell (seems useful if only for the longish range) too. With Vyrkos re-rolls to cast, seems potentially more deadly against high wound models than the normal Flaming Weapon and Sangsyron combo, and against low wound models the VLoZD is probably doing enough damage anyway. Of course, this makes even more sense if you're taking Hunters Snare and parking the VLoZD on an objective the whole game (and therefore, less utility from charge bonuses).

Something to think about, I have a list in mind very similar to yours but with wolves and Radukar the Beast, but the VLoZD playing a similar role.

The problem with Vile transference is that it happens in the hero phase. Meaning basically no matter what the big scary monster gets a round of combat with your VLoZD, which in this case is also your general. This is bad news. If you get charged by that gatebreaker you are basically just dead. If you charge that gatebreaker and don't kill it, you are also basically just dead. There is some play with nerfing the dmg output of those units before charging in, but that requires the lore of the death mages to do. I like vile transference a lot in a giant dominated meta, but i haven't been able to really figure out a safe way to use it at all. I prefer to frontload all my dmg into the VLoZD and have him act as a sort of solo flanker while i tie up the big boys with chaff and then get the grave guard into position to deal with them. 

 

That said, that is just my preference, let me know if you find a way to get VT to really work for you!

Edited January 7, 2022 by Btimmy