Kragnos discussion

[Rors]

That's a fair argument about counting as 10 models on objectives. Mawtribes are definitely a mid tabels army, but when they rank high you can basically guarantee there's a frostlord on stonehorn in the list.
I agree weapons profiles aren't the most important factor in AoS, it comes down to the units role. How useful Krag will be will depend on what support he gets in broken realms. His unit role is a bully unit that clears objectives and projects power. How useful that is will depend on what else is in an army with him.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Rors

[nissefika]

The rumer is 690p for kragnos! 

[C0deb1ue]

32 minutes ago, nissefika said:

The rumer is 690p for kragnos! 

that would be bloody terrible for competitive or casual... DOA

.. unless BR Kragnos has some sort of never before seen level of buffs... which it wont. 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[djrodriguez123]

36 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

that would be bloody terrible for competitive or casual... DOA

.. unless BR Kragnos has some sort of never before seen level of buffs... which it wont. 

 

I agree, Based on the new vamp knight release and dark eldar, I can see kragnos actually being  cheap and cost effective. It doesn’t make sense financially to ruin him  

[PlasticCraic]

9 hours ago, Rors said:

This guy is objectively better than a stonehorn.

This is not correct.

[rosa]

12 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

Give reasoned arguments why a model shouldn’t pay more than 20 PPW, none of which you tried to deconstruct. He’s a big beat stick which will be hard to get into combat and then 2+ save and anti spell are his only special defensive features. As I pointed out nearly every top build can drop him fairly easily. 
 

now yes if you are playing an army with few screens and low MW or higher than rend 1 output you will struggle vs him but that’s true facing a lot of armies. 

You said 360 points. And I don’t need to give arguments. 

At 360 points Kragnos would be bloody OP, over and out! If you don’t see this, discussing this would be useless. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by rosa

[rosa]

1 minute ago, rosa said:

Double

Edited May 26, 2021 by rosa

[LuminethMage]

13 hours ago, Mutton said:

Two units of Lumineth Sentinels will kill him on turn 1.

No, they won't. Lambent Light has a CV of 5, so if you don't roll abysmal bad with his magic protection it won't be on him. Two units of 10 Sentinels will do an average of 6 MW per turn, if they get their buff cast (if not, its 3). Even 40 "only" do 12 MW in one turn on average without Lambent Light (and they would cost you 560 points) if all of the units get their Power of Hysh spell cast. And there aren't larger unit sizes for Sentinels. 

I have no real opinion on how much he should cost, especially in the situation we are in right now - maybe there is still something coming for him, and being AoS3 around the corner, but 2 units of Sentinels won't shoot him off the board in T1. 

 

[Feii]

I live to post memes
 

 

[armisael]

15 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

Anyone saying he should be 500+ doesn’t understand how easy he will be to screen off and how easy he is to kill without a shrug. The 2+ save is only great vs rend 1 and lower. Any MW or higher end attacks put him down super fast. 
 

even at 400 he would be a tough take. 9 spear eels average kill him, HGB with pole axes, lumineth in general, KO in general. Skink MW spam. Big A himself. Essentially if you look at all the high placing armies they can easily kill him bar spell based DoT and catapult OBR. 
 

If a model is slow, can’t avoid screens and lacks utility beyond being a beat stick it can’t have a high PPW value and be worth fielding. Now maybe AoS3 gives us some generic MW save CA / healing etc and then the balance shifts but currently even at say 20 PPW for 360 he still wouldn’t be greatly efficient. 

So, Gotrek should be 200 pts then?

[Reuben Parker]

5 hours ago, rosa said:

You said 360 points. And I don’t need to give arguments. 

At 360 points Kragnos would be bloody OP, over and out! If you don’t see this, discussing this would be useless. 

 

also note there are now other people saying in their opinion he’s not straight better than a stone horn (which I agree with as the objectives holding is so important) who is 400 and FLoSH could be cheaper without breaking the game and Kragnos is a unique model. 
 

If you want to refute something you always need to give arguments. Maybe giving thought out arguments would educate others or maybe yourself as to if he would or wouldn’t be OP at 360. Just blindly saying I’m right your wrong doesn’t help anything. 

[Reuben Parker]

3 hours ago, armisael said:

So, Gotrek should be 200 pts then?

Flippant comments are kind of worthless 

 

however Gotrek isn’t worth the points he’s at currently, he’s not burning down the meta. Secondly in most situations hes far harder to kill. Due to look out sir, base size, not triggering monster bonuses and having effectively 24 wounds and damage reduction. Then most often he’s played in CoS who have access to empowered lifeswarm and potentially other healing. This means if he’s not one shot (which is tough) he basically doesn’t die. 
 

even with that he’s not worth 520 due to speed and screening again. He probably should be slightly more than Kragnos though so if Kragnos imho should be sub 400 maybe try Gotrek around 400 odd. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Reuben Parker

[Mutton]

14 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

No, they won't. Lambent Light has a CV of 5, so if you don't roll abysmal bad with his magic protection it won't be on him. Two units of 10 Sentinels will do an average of 6 MW per turn, if they get their buff cast (if not, its 3). Even 40 "only" do 12 MW in one turn on average without Lambent Light (and they would cost you 560 points) if all of the units get their Power of Hysh spell cast. And there aren't larger unit sizes for Sentinels. 

This is a good point. I hadn't considered that the spell effect of their attacks wouldn't work if he passes his shield roll.

[PlasticCraic]

Yup, it's a good point.  Still though, 40 Sentinels is very common in Lumineth and hardly a tax or something you only take to tackle Kragnos. 

It'll take 2 turns to shoot him off instead of 1, and still be an utterly bleak experience for the Kragnos player.

[Reuben Parker]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yup, it's a good point.  Still though, 40 Sentinels is very common in Lumineth and hardly a tax or something you only take to tackle Kragnos. 

It'll take 2 turns to shoot him off instead of 1, and still be an utterly bleak experience for the Kragnos player.

The way MWs are being handed out like candy kind of makes me think AoS3 is going to bring something into play to lower their impact. Even new zombies can fairly easily stack up attacks and double pile in so each model averages 1 or more MW caused and you can get 40 zombies for 230. 
 

It would be good for Kragnos obviously and personally I feel better for the game as a whole. But will have to wait and see what the new release brings. 

[LuminethMage]

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yup, it's a good point.  Still though, 40 Sentinels is very common in Lumineth and hardly a tax or something you only take to tackle Kragnos. 

It'll take 2 turns to shoot him off instead of 1, and still be an utterly bleak experience for the Kragnos player.

40 Sentinels aren't common below strictly competitive lists, and even then it's not more than 30 in most cases. You can check yourself if you don't believe me: https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/faction_page/Lumineth Realmlords/Vanari Auralan Sentinels

I see LRL lists posted daily, and most of them have 20 or at most 30 Sentinels. Because other than you suggest, 40 Sentinels are a tax on what else you can do with a list and also how you can play your list. It won't do you much good if you have 40 Sentinels but can't protect them, making it a very defensive, inflexible list (so far at least, maybe some players can come up with something with the new models and sub-factions). Many LRL players would love to ditch them to be honest, but as GW seems to throw out more and more high save units, it's difficult to do so completely. 

I'd be more concerned about a Syar player waving a certain blade at Kragnos than 40 Sentinels shooting him off in two turns. That scenario is more likely, especially if you play competitively (where you have a high chance to face a LRL Syar list), and costs the LRL player nothing at all - it's our "best" faction, and you get the item automatically. Which really could make it a bleak experience for the Kragnos player, but that's the risk you take when you make a list around high cost single models. A Teclis list can also be a bleak experience (waves at KO), but successful and fun in other cases. 

[Rors]

17 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

Flippant comments are kind of worthless 

 

however Gotrek isn’t worth the points he’s at currently, he’s not burning down the meta. Secondly in most situations hes far harder to kill. Due to look out sir, base size, not triggering monster bonuses and having effectively 24 wounds and damage reduction. Then most often he’s played in CoS who have access to empowered lifeswarm and potentially other healing. This means if he’s not one shot (which is tough) he basically doesn’t die. 
 

even with that he’s not worth 520 due to speed and screening again. He probably should be slightly more than Kragnos though so if Kragnos imho should be sub 400 maybe try Gotrek around 400 odd. 

I think what makes a unit like this so heavily debated for points costs is how skewed he is. On one hand, it's been pointed out that a couple of screens could make him near useless, two units of untamed beasts is only 140 points. On the other hand he can potentially one shot models like negash and Archaon and will auto-delete most non-god units.

The point about stonehorns having dual role of hammer and objective holder is fair and not something Krag does. Krag is 100% a pure bully unit.

For this reason, his value is going to be tied to what else is out on the table with him.

If there's a way in the army that mitigates screens, gets him extra pile ins or activations, or generally supports him to do what you want him to, he's going to need to be expensive because otherwise he'll pretty much always kill more than he costs regardless of player skill.

If there's no support, you can bring his points down because it's going to be harder for him to earn his points back. On the note of Gotrek, he's movement 4, you could double his durability and damage and he'd still be bad because hes such a struggle get where he needs to be and he's power projection is so small that he doesn't even effectively zone. M10, even without fly, makes Krag better than Gotrek. If I had Krag and my opponent puts down Gotrek, I'm going to have a lot easier time pressuring his force and avoiding his pressure that vice versa.

That said, at 360 points, basically no player skill is required to make him worth while because he is practically guaranteed to earn his points and if he doesn't your opponent will have paid an opportunity cost to prevent that (ie. Key models stay out of his threat zone)  is also worth while for Krag.

At about 500 points without support, he's value will come down to the skill of each player and the context of the game, which is what you want in a competitive game. At 360 you put him on the table and push him forward and no tactical play is needed to make him worthwhile.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Rors

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

40 Sentinels aren't common below strictly competitive lists, and even then it's not more than 30 in most cases.

Yep I'm thinking strictly in terms of competitive lists.  I'm sure Kragnos will be fine (or even dominant) on the mid tables or garagehammer.

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

https://aoslistbot.herokuapp.com/faction_page/Lumineth Realmlords/Vanari Auralan Sentinels

Not sure how accurate that is...the first thing I see on there is Matty Manzl finishing 1st of 70 players at Vic GT, which is definitely not correct because I drew with him in Round 3 (Knife to the Heart).  Seraphon (Fangs of Sotek) won that event.

Looks like Pat's already doing well running 40 Sentinels, and Josh McKinley 30.  Assuming you don't get off Lambent Light, but do get off Sunmetal Weapons, 30 should still be enough to do him in two turns (although you could easily fail Sunmetal once in which case you need to spike a little or do a few wounds from another source). 

A month before that Ryan Chamley finished 5th at Summer Smash (I beat him in Round 3 on his way to 4-1 since you ask!), and in fairness he only had 20 Sentinels from memory.  Hopefully (from my viewpoint) max 20 does becomes the norm - if they're just there to zap little support heroes without worrying about LOS, then 20 is plenty.  

I am seeing more lists tending toward Sentinel spam in competitive Australian conversations, but I obviously accept that's purely anecdotal unless and until we see it on the tabletop though.

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

A Teclis list can also be a bleak experience (waves at KO), but successful and fun in other cases. 

Fair.

[Scurvydog]

I was so disappointed by the Kragnos Warscroll reveal, he is nothing but a beatstick and provides nothing a Mawkrusha or Mega Gargant do not do better in their own allegiances. If he is even close to 700 pts I can not see him ever being worth that cost, unlike similar size models such as Archaon or Nagash, he has no synergies, no real board presence or anything at all, he just charges stuff good. 

If he was costed around 500-600 he might be able to be squeezed into a Sons of Behemat instead of a Mega and possibly 1 small gargant, that might be worth the "firepower", but his total lack of ignore dmg mechanics will just have him melt to any MW output as discussed. His only abilities are also only to provide more bravery in a bubble (destro often needs this though) but if he takes any dmg he might hurt anything in a bubble as well... yikes... 

The other "gods" all have interesting abilities and mechanics that really differentiate the army when they are on the table, they ARE the core of the army. This guy seems to simply just be "there", like a Gotrek with horse legs, but quite possibly worse than Gotrek.

[Rors]

18 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yep I'm thinking strictly in terms of competitive lists.

 

Running 40+ sentinels isn't competitive. It'll win games, but you're not competing, you're not making any tactical choices vs your opponent. It also looses against certain builds simply through rock paper scissors mechanics. This is an example of bad game design by GW. It's not the standard for competitive games it's the benchmark for poorly written rules and players who like winning without investment of skill or enjoyment by the opponent and even then it doesn't do well in a competitive scene because it folds to alpha strikes or buids that counter it's shooting phase.

You're clearly a skilled player who goes to tournaments and does well, surely you'd want a game where YOU get to play and win, not one where everyone be takes auto-picks that requires zero skill development

[PlasticCraic]

1 minute ago, Rors said:

Running 40+ sentinels isn't competitive. It'll win games, but you're not competing, you're not making any tactical choices vs your opponent. It also looses against certain builds simply through rock paper scissors mechanics. This is an example of bad game design by GW. It's not the standard for competitive games it's the benchmark for poorly written rules and players who like winning without investment of skill or enjoyment by the opponent and even then it doesn't do well in a competitive scene because it folds to alpha strikes or buids that counter it's shooting phase.

You're clearly a skilled player who goes to tournaments and does well, surely you'd want a game where YOU get to play and win, not one where everyone be takes auto-picks that requires zero skill development

Oh I agree 100%, where I'm coming from is that I'm seeing those lists getting floated around and there will be people who are tempted because it's an easy way to bludge a 3-2 without having to make many good decisions (or hope for a 4-1 with a lucky run of matchups). 

I don't expect those lists to dominate the podiums (at all), but there are midtable maestros who will be tempted, and Kragnos will just fold to them.  It's just something you have to be aware of if you're planning on running him at tournaments, and their existence puts a ceiling on how competitive I see him being.

It's not just Sentinels either, they're in danger of becoming the bogeyman in this conversation (and others online) but they're just an example of something that can put out a critical mass of mortal wounds. 

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's not just Sentinels either, they're in danger of becoming the bogeyman in this conversation (and others online) but they're just an example of something that can put out a critical mass of mortal wounds. 

indeed, the very common morathi+bowsnakes combo will kill him (with 15 or 20 snakes). Of course, it's a big point investment but they are all still alive the turn afterwards. There is an opportunity cost: while they are shooting at kragnos they are not shooting at other important pieces of your army, but I would argue that real problem is that the relative lack of speed of Kragnos (and impossibility to change this, as of now) makes it possible for them to pick another important target first, and deal with kragnos later

[Scurvydog]

Not only will Kragnos easily get killed, his 10" move with no flying for what is most likely a massive point investment is a huge problem. He will face all the same problems Gotrek does, while most likely being more expensive and dying even more easily to mortal wounds (24 average vs 18). 

A god getting plinked to death at range, while his whines pops the eardrums of your own guys nearby sounds rather pathetic. I was so hyped to get this model as something fresh for my destruction armies, but everything about him seems incredibly poor and not worth even replacing a Maw Krusha or Mega Gargant for in Orruk/SoB lists.

[Rors]

I think in something like a taker tribe having something that can threaten damage dealers adds something sore needed to a list that otherwise stands there and takes punches hoping survive long enough to win on points. +1 ld could be relevant for a unit of mancrushers as well.

In all probability, unless he's ridiculously cheap or gets destruction faction buffs he's not going to be a tournament winning warscroll..

Something like a pre-game move for grand alliance destruction when he's there would go a long way.

 

 

 

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Rors said:

I think in something like a taker tribe having something that can threaten damage dealers adds something sore needed to a list that otherwise stands there and takes punches hoping survive long enough to win on points. +1 ld could be relevant for a unit of mancrushers as well.

To be taken in a SoB army with 2 megas (2 mega + 3 minis in one unit + kragnos) you'd need kragnos to be pointed at 560pts or less. I don't think this will be the case