General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Souleater said:

As a long time Dark Elf and Dark Eldar player, I like RP 'mocking' High Elf types. And the Great Enemy, of course.

Please, you're also an (a)elf - you should embrace your cousins cause the rest of us mock ALL of your kind. Except Witch Aelves - a) they'd be hot in a RL scenario and b) they'd punch us. 😭

[Enoby]

Regardless of the actual power of the army, I think a lot of the negativity on the Lumineth release is actually down to the release itself. As in, people feeling it's unfair they got a second battletome and second wave less than a year later when some armies are still waiting on their own stuff. 

If this was their first release (as in everything at once with one battletome), then I think the negativity would be much less severe. As of now, I can see why some people feel GW are playing favourites with Lumineth, and decent rules don't help with that feeling.   

Personally, I think the new rules look pretty mediocre - not bad, but I don't feel scared of them and can think of a few ways to get around them. I think their new stuff will be less competitive than their old. 

It does raise an interesting question though, and that's how much GW has to balance both sides of the battletome being fun to play and play against. It does seem, in general, armies that are more fun to play (usually stronger) are less fun to play against, and vice versa. For example, I don't like playing against Orruk Warsclans, I think they're too lethal and too easily buffed, but I don't think they're too strong (and I can win against them). The Orruk Warclan player doesn't like fighting my Slaves to Darkness sixth circle varanguard list for pretty much the same reason as I don't like fighting 60 ardboys. We both find these armies fun to play because they have particular combos, but the sheet amount of damage leaves them boring to play against, and neither at S tier by any stretch.   

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Lumineth just have a lot going on right now. Both in terms of their rules and the circumstances surrounding their release.

Discussing the merits of LRL rules design is tricky for several reasons. One is that it's difficult to claim that they are mechanically overpowered. They are a strong army, but there are several armies that we could point to that are probably better from a pure power perspective. That alone makes discussion tricky: I think players in all kinds of games (and AoS in particular) are generally comfortable discussing power levels of armies and game balance, but have a harder time putting into words why they have problems with an army if mechanical power is not the main problem.

Then there is the extra facette of what the Lumineth army stands for and how their release was handled. From the beginning, people have been discontent with the army. The near bait-and-switch of hyping Lumineth as a successor to the classic high elves before taking them into a different, weirder direction all together was probably not the finest hour of the GW marketing team ("disappointy elves"). And the way they got a second wave very close to their initial release (while already having a quite good models and rules) further made people upset about them.  There is also the perceived favouritism that elf factions are getting from GW at the moment. To be clear, I don't think those are good reasons to dislike Lumineth in general. But it's a second layer of discontent about the faction that is hard to entangle from legitimate grievances. The Lumineth models are very beautiful, and (in spite of everything mentione above) seem to be fairly well received, if a bit marmite-y. I wonder very much how popular the aesthetic would have been if we removed some of the baggage they bring with them.

So all of this brings us to the design problems the army has. I think there is not just one thing we can point to that clearly explains what the problem with LRL is on that front. One thing that was mentioned on the most recent Warhammer Weekly episode is related to the Lumineth identity. Much like old High Elves, Lumineth are still in part defined by just being "better than you". In my opinion, Lumineth have a stronger cultural identity besides this than old High Elves ever had, but it's understandable that going up against an army that is defined by being "better" just rubs some people the wrong way. This is different from most other armies, which are characterized by being "better at" doing something than others, not just "being better" full stop.

This idea of elves just being better then results in an army that is overstuffed with rules. To convey the elven superiority, Lumineth are given a huge amount of tools and are frequently able to just do things that other armies have to work hard for. A personal example: I have a Legions of Nagash list that works hard to allow a unit of Black Knights to move 25" by making use of a battalion and command trait, which is all kinds of janky and unreliable. When the rules for the new Hurracan Windrunners were dropped (16" flying move, charge and just pile in 6" into whatever direction you want) for a moment I got this feeling of  "So they just get to do this, huh?". I like to think of myself as a person who is generally aware of some nuances of game design. I know units are not directly comparable between armies and that I am playing an old book. But it felt kind of bad none the less.

Another thing that stuck with me was this story from a different Warhammer Weekly episode of a Gitz Squig player and a Lumineth player teaming up in a 2v2 game and the Gitz player just incredulously asking the Lumineth player "How do you have so many rules?" at some point. Add to this the fact that plenty of Lumineth rules break core design principles of the game or result in uninteractive play.

Now, Lumineth player will rightly say "Is it a problem if an army has a lot of rules?", "Can an army never break core rules?" or "Can an army not have control elements?". They will point to other armies that are already in the game that have these traits and are not considered problematic. So it gets tricky. I think we can treat it as fact that there is something about LRL that provokes a stronger negative reaction than other armies. I believe something has definitely gone wrong in their rules design to cause this. But I am also certain that the negative reactions are exacerbated by factors external to the rules (release timing, visibility of the army, disappointment with the aesthetic...). And while they might not be the strongest army out there, they are definitely strong enough to make the design problems more pressing.

TL;DR: There are a lot of factors coming together to cause the negative reaction that Lumineth provoke in some. I don't think it's always fully warranted. But I also don't think it's just "haters". It's not easy to point to one common cause of all of the faction's design issues and this makes it hard to talk about them without getting side tracked into only partially fruitful debates.

[OkayestDM]

53 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Regardless of the actual power of the army, I think a lot of the negativity on the Lumineth release is actually down to the release itself. As in, people feeling it's unfair they got a second battletome and second wave less than a year later when some armies are still waiting on their own stuff. 

If this was their first release (as in everything at once with one battletome), then I think the negativity would be much less severe. As of now, I can see why some people feel GW are playing favourites with Lumineth, and decent rules don't help with that feeling.  

This ties into something I posted in the LRL Discussion thread. I got into Stormcast in 2017, and had to suffer through the hate and vitriol of 2018 when Sacrosanct chamber came out. 

I'm reliving all of that now with LRL. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate complaints against some of the LRL spells and abilities, I avoid several of them specifically to ensure I don't suck the joy out of my opponent's game (this was easy to do even with our first release, by the way. Easier still now that we have more options.)

But the complaining about LRL follows the exact same trend as Stormcast.

Some people have a pre-existing prejudice against them and will complain about them no matter what (they were doing it even before we saw the rules from the first wave.)

Some people think that they're GW's favored child and will complain about them because their favorite faction isn't currently getting the same kind of attention (which we saw as soon as the second wave was announced.)

People complained that Stormcast had fancy magic, powerful unique abilities, and dealt a lot of mortal wounds.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying that these complains are baseless or completely without merit, but the complaints against Lumineth do not all stem from the same problem (NPE). Many of the people complaining about them have never played a game against them. Rather, they wanted to complain about the Lumineth for some other reason, and NPE was just the best thing to latch on to because it's a safe one to rally behind.

Could Lumineth use some rules adjustments? Absolutely. MW on the wound roll instead of the hit roll would be better, particularly in the case of the Sentinels. I'm skeptical of claims that MW on the hit remove interactivity from the game because this has been a staple of play for years in this game. In point of fact, many factions get MW in addition to their regular hits. Lumineth don't.

Complaints about magical dominance have been growing ever since Nagash was first good at it. Things have only escalated from there. I think a magical focus should be a valid playstyle. I do, however, appreciate the frustration people have with Teclis, and wish GW had given him bonus to cast that went up or down inversely compared to the number of spells he chose to use. I also wouldn't complain if he had a limited number of auto-dispells or attempts to dispell. That's an incredibly powerful tool, and I can appreciate that people are vexed by it.

Shooting dominance has also been a problem for a while, and I am equally sympathetic to the complaints against Sentinels' ignore los ability, particularly as it has so many buffs. Is it worse than KO or Tzeentch teleporting and shooting, or less interactive than Shootcast double shots with loads of MW? They all accomplish pretty much the same thing. That doesn't make it ok, just regrettably par for the course as far as powerful shooting is concerned.

 

Ultimately, I'm happy for any constructive conversation about things that need addressing, in this or any other faction. I tip my hat to @yukishiro1 and @Neil Arthur Hotep for modeling the desired approach with their analyses. What I don't want to have to deal with is people bringing their gripes and marrying them to hearsay so they can justify venting their personal - often unrelated - animosity towards a particular faction.

Edited March 26, 2021 by OkayestDM

[Feii]

13 hours ago, Athrawes said:

If my opponent uses a command ability to make their unit ignore a battleshock test that I worked hard to set up, and it costs me the game, how is that fun for me? If my opponent uses a command ability to make a unit pile in and attack twice, how is THAT fun for me?

The answer, it's not, and it's not supposed to be. 

These NPE witchhunts are getting ridiculous. Wanting every rule to be fun for both you and your opponent makes the game boring, and is unreasonable, and I believe impossible to achieve while maintain a dynamic game full of 20+ distinct armies and even more playstyles. 

 

what a ****** take with more holes than a swiss cheese.  NPE isn't about one unfair mechanic but when you keep piling them on top of each other then it becomes a problem you use this example of "ONE thing that is not fun for your opponent" but LRL have them a lot and can do them every turn. 

Complete custom rule for piling in at 16 MS away from any unit, blades that are the strongest thing in the universe and can never miss (not a power level NPE but Gotrek/Belakor/Archaon can miss with their weapons and strikes but a random sword elf man cannot lmao), shooting without any line of sight, MW everywhere, the best magic, denying CAs on a chosen unit, bravery shenanigans, free 10 CP during the course of the game on their probably free to field terrain worded in a way that you need to target a friendly LRL units and I could continue.

[Scurvydog]

I don't think any of the new rules will make Lumineth more NPE, what they got right now appears to be the peak of the worst. 

The big offenders are mostly related to the Cathallar, that warscroll spell alone is horrid, like an every turn Belakor, but it combos so nasty with everything else. The ability to simply ignore every negative aspect possible, so this model just not only ignores the -1 bravery from the quartz, but transfers it to the opponent, she makes the lumineth simply ignore battleshock in turn your winnings upside down. That unit you just smashed 15 out of 20 wardens is not immune and your unit looses with 15, have fun. Oh want to use inspiring presence? yea that is also 2 CP thanks to that other spell.

Then we can talk about that not being 100% like to be up, but thanks to the twinstones, which is the most horribly overpowered endless spell in history, they never fail to cast anything, especially with Teclis around, that Cathallar can easily get +3-4 on that darkness of the soul spell. 

Now the absolute worst of the worst is the Goading Arrogance Syar command trait, never have I seen such cheesy cheese before and hope I never will again. Now the latest tournament I took part in, this was so incredibly powerful, seeing Cathallars single handledly shutting down Archaon builds just by being sad 6" away behind a wall of wardens. I also played 2/5 battles against lumineth with Sons of Behemat and that is NOT fun, yea 1 mega gargant is -3 bravery with darkness of the soul, have fun rolling 4 or less on 2d6 or do nothing with that 500 pts model. Also that other mega gargant in combat with those wardens? yea the Cathallar that was stood at the opposite side now got speed of hysh and running 18", now the mega gargant cant do anything and is +1 to be hit too! That 1 model locking down 1000 pts of army... No ill will against my opponents, they were great guys, but damn the sheer frustration to play against this army is unbearable.

So back to the new units, I do not think anything they do can match the above ultra cheese, give them archers and fighters that is great... The only worry seems to be the loreseeker, that leaked rule he got I really hope turns out to be wrong or have some drawback...

[Feii]

1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:

I don't think any of the new rules will make Lumineth more NPE, what they got right now appears to be the peak of the worst. 

The big offenders are mostly related to the Cathallar, that warscroll spell alone is horrid, like an every turn Belakor, but it combos so nasty with everything else. The ability to simply ignore every negative aspect possible, so this model just not only ignores the -1 bravery from the quartz, but transfers it to the opponent, she makes the lumineth simply ignore battleshock in turn your winnings upside down. That unit you just smashed 15 out of 20 wardens is not immune and your unit looses with 15, have fun. Oh want to use inspiring presence? yea that is also 2 CP thanks to that other spell.

Then we can talk about that not being 100% like to be up, but thanks to the twinstones, which is the most horribly overpowered endless spell in history, they never fail to cast anything, especially with Teclis around, that Cathallar can easily get +3-4 on that darkness of the soul spell. 

Now the absolute worst of the worst is the Goading Arrogance Syar command trait, never have I seen such cheesy cheese before and hope I never will again. Now the latest tournament I took part in, this was so incredibly powerful, seeing Cathallars single handledly shutting down Archaon builds just by being sad 6" away behind a wall of wardens. I also played 2/5 battles against lumineth with Sons of Behemat and that is NOT fun, yea 1 mega gargant is -3 bravery with darkness of the soul, have fun rolling 4 or less on 2d6 or do nothing with that 500 pts model. Also that other mega gargant in combat with those wardens? yea the Cathallar that was stood at the opposite side now got speed of hysh and running 18", now the mega gargant cant do anything and is +1 to be hit too! That 1 model locking down 1000 pts of army... No ill will against my opponents, they were great guys, but damn the sheer frustration to play against this army is unbearable.

So back to the new units, I do not think anything they do can match the above ultra cheese, give them archers and fighters that is great... The only worry seems to be the loreseeker, that leaked rule he got I really hope turns out to be wrong or have some drawback...

where can one see those leaked rules?

[Ragest]

“Watching a cathallar shutdowing Archaon is terrible”

 

Yes because watching how Archaon with autocharge 12” and with a Kairos can delete the model you have paid >100€ for it in t1 is what the game should be

Edited March 26, 2021 by Ragest

[whispersofblood]

3 minutes ago, Ragest said:

“Watching a cathallar shutdowing Archaon is terrible”

 

Yes because watching how Archaon with autocharge 12” and with a Kairos can delete the model you have paid >100€ for it in t1 is what the game should be

 

47 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I don't think any of the new rules will make Lumineth more NPE, what they got right now appears to be the peak of the worst. 

The big offenders are mostly related to the Cathallar, that warscroll spell alone is horrid, like an every turn Belakor, but it combos so nasty with everything else. The ability to simply ignore every negative aspect possible, so this model just not only ignores the -1 bravery from the quartz, but transfers it to the opponent, she makes the lumineth simply ignore battleshock in turn your winnings upside down. That unit you just smashed 15 out of 20 wardens is not immune and your unit looses with 15, have fun. Oh want to use inspiring presence? yea that is also 2 CP thanks to that other spell.

Then we can talk about that not being 100% like to be up, but thanks to the twinstones, which is the most horribly overpowered endless spell in history, they never fail to cast anything, especially with Teclis around, that Cathallar can easily get +3-4 on that darkness of the soul spell. 

Now the absolute worst of the worst is the Goading Arrogance Syar command trait, never have I seen such cheesy cheese before and hope I never will again. Now the latest tournament I took part in, this was so incredibly powerful, seeing Cathallars single handledly shutting down Archaon builds just by being sad 6" away behind a wall of wardens. I also played 2/5 battles against lumineth with Sons of Behemat and that is NOT fun, yea 1 mega gargant is -3 bravery with darkness of the soul, have fun rolling 4 or less on 2d6 or do nothing with that 500 pts model. Also that other mega gargant in combat with those wardens? yea the Cathallar that was stood at the opposite side now got speed of hysh and running 18", now the mega gargant cant do anything and is +1 to be hit too! That 1 model locking down 1000 pts of army... No ill will against my opponents, they were great guys, but damn the sheer frustration to play against this army is unbearable.

So back to the new units, I do not think anything they do can match the above ultra cheese, give them archers and fighters that is great... The only worry seems to be the loreseeker, that leaked rule he got I really hope turns out to be wrong or have some drawback...

The only thing you've shown is that you don't know the rules of the units, factions or mechanics you are talking about; while having an extremely low standard for what constitutes acceptable levels of player behaviour.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

I am firmly in the camp of let the army arrive, people play games and go from there with any meaningful discussion on rules. 

I think the new rules could provide a frustrating play experience, but any worse then Seraphon, Tzeentch or KO? I'm not sure. 

Oh, even though I play KO, I do think the spell in a bottle was a bad implementation of a creative idea. You'd have to balance that vs all faction endless spells, current past and future, and, well, they didn't.

[zilberfrid]

14 hours ago, Athrawes said:

If my opponent uses a command ability to make their unit ignore a battleshock test that I worked hard to set up, and it costs me the game, how is that fun for me?

About that ignore battleshock. How about ignoring battleshock AND bouncing that to one of your units instead of their own? You know, what the Cathaller can do. Without costing a command point.

[Ragest]

5 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

About that ignore battleshock. How about ignoring battleshock AND bouncing that to one of your units instead of their own? You know, what the Cathaller can do. Without costing a command point.

Kill Cathallar first, if not play away of her, if not be sure you can end that unit, if not save 2CPS if you need that fight, if not, be in objectives, if wardens charge they lose the +1 hit and can go away Cathallar's range and finally, if not, Cathallar can still roll 1 and use a CP to pass that.

Is not like lacks interactivity

Edited March 26, 2021 by Ragest

[Scurvydog]

8 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

 

The only thing you've shown is that you don't know the rules of the units, factions or mechanics you are talking about; while having an extremely low standard for what constitutes acceptable levels of player behaviour.

Please point out which rule I got wrong. Teclis auto casts can easily stack up a twinstone automatically to be bonus I mentioned. 

Cathallars make a unit ignore battleshock on a 2+and in addition transfer the amount they lost by to the opponents unit instead.

Their spell also makes a unit unable to act in any given phase if they do not pass a bravery check, which they can easily debuff by 2-3 with voice of the mountain and transfering the aetherquartz penalty, which the cathallar also does automatically. 

Goading arrogance allows the general to point at a hero in the combat phase  6" away and make that enemy hero only able to target them in that phase. Not only that, Lumineth also get +1 to hit againt that hero.

17 minutes ago, Ragest said:

“Watching a cathallar shutdowing Archaon is terrible”

 

Yes because watching how Archaon with autocharge 12” and with a Kairos can delete the model you have paid >100€ for it in t1 is what the game should be

So many things are super powerful, I wont deny that the Tzeentch Archaon list is super meta, but at least that is a 800 model + support that actually goes and fights you. It seems your argument is simply that that combo is strong, so no reason a mandatory command trait from one of the best sub factions should not just completely invalidate any hero unit in the game. 1 Cathallar general with 10 wardens in a circle around her is impossible to ever kill by for example a maw krusha, no dice needed, just immortal, as it can't hit her and not allowed to target the circle of guards. That is just broken. At the very least that trait should only work in engagement range.

[Icarion]

 

6 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

About that ignore battleshock. How about ignoring battleshock AND bouncing that to one of your units instead of their own? You know, what the Cathaller can do. Without costing a command point.

Totally missed my point friend.

The example is not fun at all for an opponent. And it shouldn't be. That doesn't make it a bad rule, trying to make every rule in every army "feel good" for both players leads to bland armies. If you want to play a perfectly fair game, try chess, Warhammer is fun because of the wacky ways situations can skew. 

Though I'd be cautious of Chess. I hear that white always goes first and that seems broken to me, that may lead to serious NPE. 🤣

Edited March 26, 2021 by Athrawes

[Ragest]

25 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

So many things are super powerful, I wont deny that the Tzeentch Archaon list is super meta, but at least that is a 800 model + support that actually goes and fights you. It seems your argument is simply that that combo is strong, so no reason a mandatory command trait from one of the best sub factions should not just completely invalidate any hero unit in the game. 1 Cathallar general with 10 wardens in a circle around her is impossible to ever kill by for example a maw krusha, no dice needed, just immortal, as it can't hit her and not allowed to target the circle of guards. That is just broken. At the very least that trait should only work in engagement range.

Archaon can make a premove 6" in Hosts Arcanum, having an autodispel in turn 1/3/5, he can be buffed with RR Hit and Wound and +1 Save, +1 Hit and +1 Wound, plus another attack completing the agenda you can do auto with your 14"(+6" premove) with your secured +9" charge thanks to destiny dices, he can fly so pass throught screens and, with Kairos, you only need 1 6 with Kigslayer to destroy every centerpiece in the game, with is at least 1/4 of all the list and providing the most important buffs for that. How I can play vs that? The only wayt is having Syar and having a well positioned Cathallar, just that.

So might be fair that I lose (lose, not just being stucked and not attacking) my centerpiece in T1 but is not fair that I can use the only weapon I have to stop that?

Lets talk about Gargants. The unit size i can have is 30 maximum so i cant compete in the objectives with Gargants. My damage is full swingy, i can do 38MW with 20 Wardens the same way I can do 0, and i don't have nought to kill the Gargant, so the only way I have to win that matchup is to throw away bravery debuffs and hoping you get stucked in Cathallar's spell (with 18") using 2 spells (3 if i need Umbral) for that and at least one more to place 1 unit in the point. So if i don't have that spell, what i do? Collect my dudes and get out the place?

Lumineth has to fight controlling the field, and to control the field you have to disrupt enemy's plans, because if not you are Gloomspite levels of power. You want to take all that styff out? That will surely come with damage buffs, so the army will be fway more strong as it is, with additional MW or damage 2.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Ragest

[Eternalis]

28 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Yes because watching how Archaon with autocharge 12” and with a Kairos can delete the model you have paid >100€ for it in t1 is what the game should be

Wow...
Sorry but your opponent paid 240€ for that combo :p

[Ragest]

Just now, Eternalis said:

Wow...
Sorry but your opponent paid 240€ for that combo 😛

Oh mate, beileve me, you don't try to make a war about prices, I play Lumineth xd

[Beliman]

4 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Archaon can make a premove 6" in Hosts Arcanum, having an autodispel in turn 1/3/5, he can be buffed with RR Hit and Wound and +1 Save, +1 Hit and +1 Wound, plus another attack completing the agenda you can do auto with your 14"(+6" premove) with your secured +9" charge thanks to destiny dices, he can fly so pass throught screens and, with Kairos, you only need 1 6 with Kigslayer to destroy every centerpiece in the game, with is at least 1/4 of all the list and providing the most important buffs for that. How I can play vs that? The only wayt is having Syar and having a well positioned Cathallar, just that.

That's not the point.

[Scurvydog]

3 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Lats talk about Gargants. The unit size i can have is 30 maximum so i cant compete in the objectives with Gargants. My damage is full swingy, i can do 38MW with 20 Wardens the same way I can do 0, and i don't have nought to kill the Gargant, so the only way I have to win that matchup is to throw away bravery debuffs and hoping you get stucked in Cathallar's spell (with 18") using 2 spells (3 if i need Umbral) for that and at least one more to place 1 unit in the point. So if i don't have that spell, what i do? Collect my dudes and get out the place?

Of course you bring a spell portal and Teclis. Throw voice of the mountain and whatever else with Teclis. Get twinstones to 4ish stacks, cast darkness of the soul on 1 mega gargant through the portal. That 500 point model is now stuck unless it rolls 6 or less on 2d6, and that is only with voice up, even harder once it gets other debuffs. Stand your cathallar behind wardens. If another mega charges, it cant fight as you just point at it and it cant fight the wardens and cant fight the carthallar hiding behind them. Did the gargant go to the other side of the board? Just use speed of hysh and 1 CP, you can run 18" then no problem.

Now you got the 2 big gargants unable to do anything, what about the small ones? well just eat 2 quartz when they go in to get a 2+ save and stay in the 5+ teclis bubble, they might lose maybe 10 dudes, you also got that bravery debuff up and if the cathallar is within 18" you can now just make them all auto run of they lost just 1 model.

This is not unlikely cases, that is a rock solid reliable strategy. I played 2/5 tournament matches in the last tournament against Lumineth and my Gatebreaker mega gargant did not attack even once both games, stuck all the time. Small gargants cant attack, they just scare themselves off the board. Want them to stick around? that will be 2 CP please, every phase... yea not gonna happen. Oh and the general is stuck doing nothing as well but retreating away.  You might be lucky to sit on objectives long enough before being killed, while doing nothing and waiting for 30 minutes elf hero phases. just great fun for all

[Ragest]

5 minutes ago, Beliman said:

That's not the point.

Every army should be capable to play vs everything with the weapons the have, call it having access to alpha strikes to control the board, shooting, placing tons of wounds and models in the game, with hard-hitting spells, with a hyper agressive centerpiece, a support centerpiece, teleporting or, like lumineth, with debuffs. 

You want to make me a nuke combo? I can place there my horde of orruks, to keep you busy, I can fly high to kite the model, I can send Morathi that is unkillable or I can make you unable to attack. Is everything the same, but some things are called "NPE" the others "Fun gameplay"

And that's my point.

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, Ragest said:

Every army should be capable to play vs everything with the weapons the have, call it having access to alpha strikes to control the board, shooting, placing tons of wounds and models in the game, with hard-hitting spells, with a hyper agressive centerpiece, a support centerpiece, teleporting or, like lumineth, with debuffs. 

You want to make me a nuke combo? I can place there my horde of orruks, to keep you busy, I can fly high to kite the model, I can send Morathi that is unkillable or I can make you unable to attack. Is everything the same, but some things are called "NPE" the others "Fun gameplay"

And that's my point.

Yep, gotcha.

Now, your turn to understand what was said before 👌

[Feii]

LRL players in this thread are biased AF. Seriously a cult of Teclis lmao. 

[whispersofblood]

38 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Please point out which rule I got wrong. Teclis auto casts can easily stack up a twinstone automatically to be bonus I mentioned. 

Cathallars make a unit ignore battleshock on a 2+and in addition transfer the amount they lost by to the opponents unit instead.

Their spell also makes a unit unable to act in any given phase if they do not pass a bravery check, which they can easily debuff by 2-3 with voice of the mountain and transfering the aetherquartz penalty, which the cathallar also does automatically. 

Goading arrogance allows the general to point at a hero in the combat phase  6" away and make that enemy hero only able to target them in that phase. Not only that, Lumineth also get +1 to hit againt that hero.

So many things are super powerful, I wont deny that the Tzeentch Archaon list is super meta, but at least that is a 800 model + support that actually goes and fights you. It seems your argument is simply that that combo is strong, so no reason a mandatory command trait from one of the best sub factions should not just completely invalidate any hero unit in the game. 1 Cathallar general with 10 wardens in a circle around her is impossible to ever kill by for example a maw krusha, no dice needed, just immortal, as it can't hit her and not allowed to target the circle of guards. That is just broken. At the very least that trait should only work in engagement range.

To start with just what is on Archaon's warscroll

ignoreses spell effects on a 4+, and is bravery 10.

Archaon has a 14" flying move

Darkness if soul has a 18" range

Goading arrogance has a 6" radius

The controlling player is therefore in control of the situation and should end his turn 18.1" ways from the Cathallar, until they have determined the right time to move and attack.

Your example assumes what is frankly an embarrassing low level of player conduct and accountability it should be removed from the thread. 

She is 5w with a 5+ save, we just had a whole thread about how vulnerable that is. Have you considered adding some Chaos Furies to your list or any shooting attack?

Edited March 26, 2021 by whispersofblood

[Landohammer]

Some observations after 10+ games vs Lumineth with 5-6 different factions..

They have multiple tiers of "frustration causing attributes".  Here are just a few of them.

1) They have a lot of allegiance abilities. Like in some cases 5-6x what a "fat-middle" faction would have. Every unit being a spell caster would seemingly be enough, but combine that with with 6+ mortals, shining company, Aether quartz, 2x activation and sub faction abilities, and if just feels like they do more than any other army. Their incoming faction terrain just exacerbates this. (its probably the best faction terrain in the game, and note that some armies like Sylvaneth only have faction terrain as their primary allegiance ability. 

2) Teclis has an overwhelming board presence. Being able to auto-cast spells is unprecedented. But so is doubling command abilities, auto dispels, providing a 4+ spell bounce, FNP, and bravery debuff.  He impacts significantly too many things, especially compared to other characters of his like/cost (alarielle and morathi). 

3) The army promotes castle playstyle. Sentinels and Teclis being the obvious offenders here.  People hate on Tau (and old WFB Dwarfs) for a reason. Its not an enjoyable way to play the game. It might be ok if it was the only issue, but when combined with the others it just makes it worse.

4) They stop your army from functioning. Some armies such as Hallowheart and non-netlist Tzeentch win games with magic. Some armies such as Dreadwood, Fyreslayers or Legion of Nagash win games with very specific command abilities. Some armies such as Nighthaunt and DoK win games by buffing units with very fragile characters. Some armies such as BoC or Cities can be crippled with leadership debuffs.  Lumineth has answers to all of these, easily and reliably baked in. 

 

[BadDice0809]

53 minutes ago, Ragest said:

“Watching a cathallar shutdowing Archaon is terrible”

 

Yes because watching how Archaon with autocharge 12” and with a Kairos can delete the model you have paid >100€ for it in t1 is what the game should be

That particular combo costs you 1200 points focused in TWO MODELS and you are complaining about it? And think its fine a generic 140 character shuts it down.

Along with an absolutely out of nowhere "deletes a model you have paid over 100 euro for" argument.... seriously what?

If that is somehow a legitimate argument to make (and its not its hilariously bad) then why should your 35 dollar model lock down my over a 100 dollar mawcrusha?